My approach on HHO (a not-so-brief presentation of myself)

[WaltherPP9mm]

Hi there, my real name is Daniel. I now live in Italy, born 45 years ago in Romania. In the beggining, I must enhance that I appologize for my english, as my actual girlfriend (a sweedish born english teacher here in Milan) claims that it some times sucks. In sweeden they learn a high quallity english in schools, and she's the teacher, so she must be right... So, on that matter, please go easy on me, I'm doing all my best. :o

Well guys, I stumped uppon this HHO deal some month ago.

Before I used to treat all these advertisments about water fuel kits that were invading me while surfing in internet just like what the greatest part of em are - lame scams!

I sincerely believe that an advertisment claiming "Just send me $(30-99,90-299- and so on) and I'll reveal you the secret of making your 5 litres truck working on half liter of water instead of gasoline" is nothing but a good sister of "Buy my book for $29,99 and learn how to become a zillionaire, like I am, living under the sun on a tropical beach, counting my zillions but still spending 16 hours a day online, just for the sake of you and yours $29,99...". :)

Before the internet age, there were people around the world claiming "Look, this is my newest invention: a fake-but-real-look-like money fabricating machine. With it I can instantly fabricate all the money I might need. I am selling it to you for only 999,99!". :)
This demonstrates that the average IQ remains constant, only the tecnologies for propagating scams are constantly improving, moving into the digital age.

And finally, one day, searcing for a completly different matter, I landed on this forum and had the fortune of stumbling on some posts made by a really smart user here present (no names, sorry :p) that convinced me about the real deal. I discovered soon that here there were even other really smart users, so I decided to join. It's not the food and drink that matters, but the pleasant company!

Then I said to me: "let's study this a little bit. If correctly refined from the crap it could turn interestingly useful. Worth the try of dedicating it some of my time."

[WaltherPP9mm]

Some people (encountered even here, in this forum) believe that the best approach is "Nevermind, let's experiment, for the sake of it!". I am very familliar with it, as I worked for some years in the military research environment and the common approach there was "You think you made-up a new bomb/gizmo? What does it do? You don't know exactly? Well then, let's drop it and see what happens!". :D

I am totally opposing to that. My approach is "Think, think again, gather and refine information, build a theorical mathematics/physics/chemistry/whatever model, run it as you wish (on a computer) to discover what you are about and AT THE END OF IT, if you really have to, buid the real model to run it, just to demonstrate other peoples that EVERYTHING WORKED EXACTLY AS PREDICTED".

This is my rational way of dealing with scientific life. One of the few irrational approaches that oftenly amuses me is watching the hourly intellectual efforts a women make to decide how to dress for the evening. My regular rational response to this is "Honey, you should better remain naked and let's not go out anymore, let's spend the night right here". God knows why after saying that, they become so angry on me... Maybe one day I'll do some research on that! :p

I strongly believe that my kind of "experimenting" is the most efficient way to do things. But I also have to agree that "experiment for the sake of it!" approach could turn useful. History demonstrates it. It generated antibiotics, teflon, microwave cooking and a million of other things that today are a regular part of our life. Just think about the penicillyn Alexander Fleming discovered... He took his time for studying some old mouldy jars, where there was nothing predictible to discover. Being in his shoes, I would throwed em away in less than 10 seconds. Lucky us all I wasn't in his shoes! Otherwise, today we could still die from an ordinary infection!

Therefor, for all of you, happy-trigger-experimeters, feel free to correct me if or when I'm wrong or even calling me a dumbass, if situation requests it... I will not offend and in return I promise to give you the same treatment, if requested. Theorical analysis tends to lead sometimes to funny missconceptions and hillarious mistakes. You know the story of Albert Einstein who had two cats. A big one and a little one. He had oftenly to open the door to let em out, wich was annoying. He took his scentific approach, measured the cats and cut into the door TWO openings. A big one and a small one! Some friend said to him "you dumbass, the bigger cut was enough for both cats!". "Really?! I never thought it this way" he replyed.:)

[bigjim56]

Hey Walther, welcome aboard....nice bike! Hopefully mine loads here, we'll see. I spent 2 Christmases in Naples, my homeport away from homeport you could say. I was all over the Med. back in 75-79. Almost 2 years of my 4 year enlistment was spent over there. Sure would like to someday cruise back there again, this time as a civilian.

Your insight is correct, there are a lot of scammers out there concerning HHO, but educating yourself helps greatly in dodging them. Very little namecalling on this board, in fact, none at all. Not like the political blogs. Some political discussions here can get heated, but its best to steer away from that.

Welcome and happy riding!

bigjim56

[WaltherPP9mm]

Hi bigjim, compliments for your bike! Jeez, you spent 2 Chrismas in Naples? And you are still alive, not being killed or injured by the bombs and firecrackers they throw away during the New Year's eve festivities?! Not to mention the kitchen sinks and TV sets they also throw out directly from the windows? :):):)

Just joking, actually is a great place to spend a vacation or even more...
But watch it! Long exposure leads to pizza addiction!!! You have been warned!:p

[WaltherPP9mm]

Now about what I understood so far and about what are my plans and objectives:
1 - I intend to finally build a cost effective device to put initially on my car, all this to demonstrate the viabillity of the process.

2 - Then, I will try to demonstrate and promote its benefits, which should be on both economical and environmental matters.

3 - I will successivelly try to sensibilize public opinion in Italy, eventually detracting some financial benefits (which is good to keep in mind as unfortunately money allways matters) by creating my owned activity based on old cars adaptation to HHO.

And here comes the really uggly part:
4 - I will have to deal with govern and politicians in order to obtain official legal compliance. You maybe don't know, but here, in Italy, in the major cities the access of cars is limited and/or tax suppressed based on EURO pollution norms. This means that if you drive a 100.000 Euros brand new non polluting car you can do it quite freely, but if you drive your 10-15 years old even cathalytic car you will be heavilly taxed and sometimes completely prohibitted to do it.

So these are my objectives. Let's detalliate, for now on sticking to the fase one:

The device I will finally build is to be mounted on a 1994 1,8L gasoline injection Lancia Dedra, the car I own since 6 years ago. Before she was owned by a retired bank manager that was taking her for a ride a couple of times a year, so I bought it allready old but still virgin (less than 60.000 Km made in 9 years) and in a stupendous maintenance condition.

I instantly become inlove of this car, as she is quite comfortable, easily manageable and along the 110.000 km she took me in Europe she prooved herself to be extremely robust and requested very low maintenance, that I provide mostly by myself, spending quite nothing. The secret is care-ing and treating it well... Of course, as nobody is perfect, she has a serious drinking problem... she needs to drink an average of 9 L of gasoline every 100 Km...

The tricky part on adapting her to HHO is the extremely limited space under the hood. Whithout modifying something, the only avaiable space I found is approx. 20cm large / 18 cm height / 15 cm thick. Quite poor!
By slightly modifying something inside the motor compartment I hope to increase the available space to 20cm large / 18-20cm height / 30cm thick. I ma sorry, but this is the space I have to deal with.

In this space I have to mount my HHO generator.
This brings me to the second chapter and to some questions I have:

[WaltherPP9mm]

As I understood, the deal is to inject an amount of HHO into the air intake, to allow it to mix it with the air/gas compound.
The main goal is NOT to gain supplemental free energy by burning the HHO, as I will actually loose some because the process.

The energy used in the process of extraction of the HHO comes from the engine's alternator. As the energy requested for breaking apart the athoms of gas from the water mollecula is precisely equal to the energy obtained when recombining them. In the ideal scenario no more energy will be obtained. Worst of it, in the real scenario I will loose a lot of energy. Those who allready understood that may skip the rest and go straightly to the red part...

The process of transforming the energy from the chemical reaction of burning gas inside the car's engine into mechanical energy that put in motion the rotating parts is pittyfully inefficient. We actually loose an immense part that ends out as lost heat energy. The cars alternator uses an ammount of the mechanical energy taken from the motor to convert it into electrical energy. But it also loses some energy during that process. Finally, injecting that electric energy into the electrolytic HHO generator we are still loosig some part of it.

Therefor, it seems to me that basically the more HHO we produce the more energy we end up wasting! apparently increasing the engine's fuel consumption to obtain the same mechanicals benefits we had before deciding to produce HHO on the car.

All these being said, one could decide: END OF THE STORY. THIS IS NOT FOR ME!

BUT: It seems to be already demonstrated and reasonably explained that adding thE HHO so painfully and energy-inefficiently obtained leads to a major benefit for the primary process of burning the air/gasoline mix inside the engine, wich becomes in this way more efficient. And as a bonus, we obtain even a secondary effect, which consist of a (don't know yet how much conssistent) reduction of polutig gases eliminated by the engine. Seems that the benefits extracted from adding HHO to the combustion process grows from zero (when no HHO was added) untill it is reached some limiting point when there is no more benefit to extract (as the very last mollecule of combustible was burned with 100% efficiency). This is only a theorical point, as it is not practically reachable. From that point on, adding HHO will only reduce the efficiency, because of the fact that producing HHO is costing supplemental energy inside the car's alternator and inside the electrolythic HHO generator.

In the real case process, the point where no more benefits could be extracted is actually sooner. So there is my first question:

Did someone found some attendable info on how much HHO worth the deal to add to the original combustible mix?

Obviously, this is essential for establishing the primary compliances and tecnical specifiations for the final design of the HHO generator.

Thank you for your patience.

Actually, I have a lot more questions to ask, but I will stick to my long experimented principle of life: "If you want her naked, slowly strip her clothes one at the time." :):):)

[bigjim56]

Walther,

We luckily were warned a few times before the bewitching hour by the CO of my ship of the tradition of the Italians to throw everything old and to be discarded out the windows at midnight(no matter what floor)...no injuries happended to our troops that I'm aware of.

The general rule of thumb as far as useful HHO to engine size is 1-2 Liters per minute (LPM) for every liter of engine size. So your 1.8 liter would require at least 2 lpm of HHO to start to see any mileage improvement. It being a 1994 you may have lucked out and have no O2 sensors to deal with. Luckily it could just be a set screw for your idle, I don't know. It takes a good sum of $ to override the sensors and thats why its so expensive to do these steps to newer cars.
Just a prewarning, I'm still not seeing GREAT mileage gains here, just modest as I'm still working on optimizing my setup. The idea of doubling mpg's is pretty much a pipe dream, but some gains will be found, at sometimes a heavy cost. My car (2001 Acura Integra 1.8L) is rated 28-30 city/highway, I'm currently getting about 35 mpg. I'm hoping to get more, but its a slow task. I want to optimize my setup by using a PWM (Pulse width modulator) to let my system run at 20 amps continuous. Foaming has been a problem, but I think I have it licked. The consensus here and most all HHO boards is that the dry cell is better than the water4gas setup (wet cell). After building both, I agree, don't waste time with the wet cell...go with the dry, it is head and shoulders above the wet cell IMO. Videos here and on youtube can pretty much lead you anywhere you want to go, there's a TON of instructional videos out there so use them to your benefit.

Good luck !

bigjim56

[WaltherPP9mm]

bigjim56,
thanks for your fast reply. I am glad to here that you were well warned about the risks if walking around the streets of Naples on new years's eve. May I add some advice on driving along Naples? Never, EVER stop at a redlight if in Naples! The last and only time I did that I was hit from behind by another car, whose driver assumed i will break into the intersection disconssidering the red light, like every resident in Naples would normally do... :) :) :)

And don't forget about pizza addicion sindrome!!!:p

OK, about the the so-called rule of 1LPM for each Liter of cylindrical capacity of the engine I was allready aware. Are there any affordable testing results published? Actually, I don't like very much those statments that claim "Do it with 34,57 because it is like that everybody does it. Seems to work this way.".
I need real arguments and prooved tests, eventually formulas demonstrating it.
Of course, in absence of other significant data, I try to stick to the "common sense". This means that in absence of oter significant data I have to follow those that sustain that i have to "do it with 34,57". You got my point?

My Lancia is provided with Ox sensor, she's one of the first provided with it, but I am not troubled by that. I have a solid background of electronical engineer and things like dealing (designing/building) with an ICE controller or PWM are not a major problem for me. Certainly, it is always possiblke that things you think you are in control of develops into real pain in the ass... but I think I can manage em, and mostly, I'm not affraid of em. I do things like that for a living at ST-Microelectronics, here, in Italy.

Just as a small paranthesis, I managed to alter the original EPROM mapping on some ignition controllers for some bikes my friends own (including mine). It's a piece of cake, if you have the right tools, right information and you are well aware what you are dealing with. My 2002 F4 MV Agusta stands as a testimony that she had become a R312. Yes, 312 Km/h. Actually, the friend of mine who tested her after the mods i've made went up to 300Km/h on the Monza race strip and stopped there but claimed there was still room for more. Personally, I never found enough courage to go over 250. For me, this is way more than enough!

Sit and learn (gathering information) is a great approach. It recently provided me some great but somehow hard to take results, as I discovered that one of this forum users had STOLED MY IDEEAS. Actually, he did this at least FOUR MONTHS BEFORE I WAS EVEN THINKING ABOUT BRINGING THEM TO LIFE. I sincerely hope that my imprecise english would not alter the sense of humourism of my allegation.

It's about Dodge Viper's project and setup for a dry cell based system on his 4,7L Ram (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2542) that is almost identical to what I had in mind, only that mines comes 4 months after his and it is fairly half sized, according do my 1.8 liters of cc. So, I must HAIL TO THE MASTER! (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2542) (not mentionig that mine was initially weaker than his, some here and there...)

Clearly, I don't expect spectacular results in mileage gain. Actually, if somebody would come to me claiming I might multiply 10 times my mileage, I would instantly answer him to fu.k off!

I am well aware that for now we are dealing with 15% to 30% on mileage improvements. Older the car, possibly greater the improvement. I am considering also as very important the benefit of significantly reducing the engine's nocive emissions. This is important, as many european car owners are dealing with a hard taxation derivating from this. To put it other way, an italian would be much more impressed if his car would become a EURO4 or EURO5 standard compliant after a HHO conversion instead of the initial (factory) EURO2 or even EURO1 compliance. Not mentioning the savings from fuel, that here acts as a secondary bonus.


Videos here and on youtube can pretty much lead you anywhere you want to go, there's a TON of instructional videos out there so use them to your benefit.

Good luck !


Thanks a lot! LOL! I allready discovered redtube and youporn. LOL!

Now seriously,
After years and years of hounting the net, I still don't have a good method to refine gold from crap... That's the major pain in the ass when researching on the net, and here is where I am counting on you, folks, to help me spare some of my time on researching.

Let's make this clear, I'm not like the those lammers that oftenly ask "Plssss, plssss, plssss, tell me where to stick all these fuk.in' nuts and bolts and sh.t to make this damn' thing working, cuz I'm too lazzy to read all that crappy tutorial... plsss answer me at lazzydumbass@yahoo.com"

I would be ashamed by myself acting like this... You got the point?

Thank you.

Some indications on affordabble reports about polluting emissions reduction dued to HHO conversion would be very useful.
Thanks again.

[DodgeViper]

bigjim56

It's about Dodge Viper's project and setup for a dry cell based system on his 4,7L Ram (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2542) that is almost identical to what I had in mind, only that mines comes 4 months after his and it is fairly half sized, according do my 1.8 liters of cc. So, I must HAIL TO THE MASTER! (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2542) (not mentionig that mine was initially weaker than his, some here and there...)


Wow, I am know master but I am good with my hands and have a shop with lots of tools. I am a perfectionist when it comes to details, but please I am not a master on HHO...