-WHY- does HHO use result in better fuel efficiency?

[Philldpapill]

I've read, and read about HHO, but I can't find out WHY it is supposed to increase efficiency. I know people play with the sensors on vehicles and modify setting on the ECU, but isn't that just trading off engine life for increased fuel efficiency?

I'm avidly against any sort of over unity claims, so I know that the HHO is not just adding extra energy by the stoichiometric combustion alone. I mean, if your HHO generator were 100% efficient, then you would put X amount of energy into producing the gas, and get exactly 100% of that energy back when you burn the gas. The result would be absolutely no net gain in fuel efficiency. In the real world, it would actually HARM efficiency.

So the question is, WHAT is going on to produce extra power through the use of this gas? Can anyone explain this, or point me in the right direction? I come from an engineering background, so I love data and theory with evidence. I'd love to have some ammunition touse when I argue my engineer/scientist friends. :)

[H2OPWR]

I've read, and read about HHO, but I can't find out WHY it is supposed to increase efficiency. I know people play with the sensors on vehicles and modify setting on the ECU, but isn't that just trading off engine life for increased fuel efficiency?

I'm avidly against any sort of over unity claims, so I know that the HHO is not just adding extra energy by the stoichiometric combustion alone. I mean, if your HHO generator were 100% efficient, then you would put X amount of energy into producing the gas, and get exactly 100% of that energy back when you burn the gas. The result would be absolutely no net gain in fuel efficiency. In the real world, it would actually HARM efficiency.

So the question is, WHAT is going on to produce extra power through the use of this gas? Can anyone explain this, or point me in the right direction? I come from an engineering background, so I love data and theory with evidence. I'd love to have some ammunition touse when I argue my engineer/scientist friends. :)


It is simply the speed of the flame front. Gasoline is in reality a very slow burner. Way more fuel exits through the exhaust than is actually burned in the combustion chamber. The ignition timing has to be set way before top dead center just to get decent power from gasoline. That is why we have cat's on our cars. Simply to burn the fuel that does not burn under combustion. HHO is a catalyst that helps ignite more of the gasoline or deisel and extract extra power from that. Kind of like extra sparks during the combustion process. It has been proven over and over with constant speed deisel engines.

Larry

[Philldpapill]

So HHO is essentially raising the octane level of the fuel? Well, not the OCTANE, but acting to raise the ratio of light, easily combustable molecules?

It seems that if the flame front isn't "fast" enough, then this is more of a timing issue unique to the engine itself. If that's the case, why not fix the timing instead of adding hydrogen?

[Bassman]

So HHO is essentially raising the octane level of the fuel? Well, not the OCTANE, but acting to raise the ratio of light, easily combustable molecules?

It seems that if the flame front isn't "fast" enough, then this is more of a timing issue unique to the engine itself. If that's the case, why not fix the timing instead of adding hydrogen?

The timing is set correctly for the engine design and the fuel that it is designed to use. The HHO is improving the combustion of that fuel which will add horsepower and in theory should improve mileage.

[Philldpapill]

Yes, but WHY is it improving the combustion of the fuel? I'm not a mechanical engineer, so ICE's are not my specialty. The only thing my feable mind can see, is that the Hydrogen, being a much lighter molecule with a lower heat of reaction, would ignite the fuel more evenly, reducing knock.

Is this what is happening? I'd love to see some data on this.

[Bassman]

Yes, but WHY is it improving the combustion of the fuel? I'm not a mechanical engineer, so ICE's are not my specialty. The only thing my feable mind can see, is that the Hydrogen, being a much lighter molecule with a lower heat of reaction, would ignite the fuel more evenly, reducing knock.

Is this what is happening? I'd love to see some data on this.

If it ignites the gasoline more evenly, don't you think that it would make more of the gasoline ignite instead of sending raw gasoline out the exhaust?

[abe58]

Phill, Orginally HHO was used on race a race boat trying to replace Nitros for better preformance.During a day of raceing Mr. Boyce would run through a lot of gas,so he looked into makeing gas on demand.He did a lot of work to come up with what we now call a wet cells. It worked so well for him, he and others started looking for ways to use it on gas engines. From what I've seen it takes a lot more than a good CELL+ PMW+EFIE.They need to be tuned to the right frenquency for that cell. It's a little like tuneing the strings on a Gutar they are all a little different. If you are lucky enough to get it righ youll get better gas millage ,if not you'll waste money and thank it doesn't work. Check out YouTube for some good Info. Checkout "Bob Bouce Interview by Chris Patton". He explanes a lot of the questions about HHO .,

[Philldpapill]

Does anyone understand what determines the frequency of the cell? If this can be understood, I think it will be alot easier to make one of these cells work correctly, instead of "wasting money" like you said.

[hhoconnection]

Phill:

Watch this video series from Smack. If he sounds mad, it's because he is trying for the 1000+ time to explain to the skeptics out there why HHO will increase the efficiency of an engine. I'm sure he goes over a lot of what you already know, but there is a lot of good info in these videos. I hope this answers some of your questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAbiShy9mTk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG5T_01CUM0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYBTckOtVeI

[janiskoprime]

To the point....HHO burns faster than gasoline, and more efficiently. To add HHO to a gasoline combustion engine, you would substitute some of the power provided by gasoline with the combustion power provided by the HHO, allowing your engine to use less fossil fuels. When people say that HHO increases efficiency, they are refering specifically to the substitution of HHO gas for gasoline. The alternator on a vehicle produces the electricity required to "crack" the water into HHO.
One arguement is that the extra HP required to turn the alternator under the load of an HHO generator negates the HP produced by burning the HHO gas. While the efficiency of your HHO generator is a factor in this equation, it is only a factor in determining how much HHO is burned in the engine. Any time your alternator is turning it's producing current, limited only by a voltage regulator and rpms. The load on the alernator is unchanged. Example: Attatch a crank handle to car/truck alternator, then attatch a vehicle headlight to the alternator. Lets assume that turning the alternator by handcrank at 100rpms provided enough current to light the headlight at normal intensity. When turning the handcrank @100rpms, disconnect the headlight from the alternator. You`ll find that the effort required to turn the alternator does not change. Even though there is not a load on the alternator at this point, the potential current is still being generated.
With this in mind, understand that every auto alternator provides more current than your vehicle can use. With all the options running on your car; headlights, radio at full blast, power windows and seats etc, you can still plug in your cell phone charger or an ac/dc converter and a small television. The point is, there is current in reserve with no extra draw on the engine. Some people get this confused with the noticeable draw of power from the engine when the AC is turned on. This comes from the ac compressor which is activated by a clutch mechanism inside it`s own housing and is unrelated.
Based on this layout, we can deduce that there is current being unused when your engine is running. Attatching an HHO generator to that current and using it to crack water and provide supplimental combustion gas for your engine uses no more fossil fuels then are already being burned. You are basically converting unused electrical energy originally provided the burning of fossil fuels into HHO gas via an alternator and an HHO generator, thereby getting more fuel efficiency.
The only negative draw of an HHO generator over the original factory configuration of a vehicle is the added weight of the equipment. Provided that your HHO generator makes a high enough volume of gas it will not only compensate for the weight of the generator itself, but also add to the overall efficiency of your engine.
HHO does not create energy, it is simply a method to tap unused energy your engine is already producing. While my post may be late in comming, I hope this helps answer your question.

[Philldpapill]

janiskoprime, your first paragraph is absolutely incorrect. There is no "potential" current - there is voltage produced. If you turn an alternator with a headlight(or other high current load), it WILL be harder to turn the alternator than with no load. The alternator pulls a small amount of current continously to power the field coils, but this is negligable.

The moment you attach another load, the drain on the engine starts. I don't think you understand the way an alternator or generator works... Basically, there is a magnetic field inside the alternator, produced by a small current from the battery. There is also a spinning set of coils inside that magnetic field. This spinning coil produces a voltage potential across the terminals, and when a load is connected, a current flows. This flowing current produces another magnetic field that is opposite polarity as the stationary magnetic field. THIS opposing magnetic field is what gives rise to the alternator being "hard to turn". This is because the magnetic fields are sort of "pushing" against each other, and for you to turn the rotor(the coils), would require you to push through that field. Make sense?

So, to counter that arguement that HHO generation is only using unused electrical energy, that is totally and absolutely false. If that WERE the case, then your alternator would be getting very hot without a load attached because that "electrical energy" is being dissipated as heat - it's gotta go somewhere.

I can buy the faster burn of HHO contributing to a more uniform burn of the gasoline. That's feasible. But to compound that with saying that it also uses unused power from the alternator, is just wrong.

Thank you for replying, but I just disagree.

[janiskoprime]

You are absolutely correct in saying that I do NOT know much about generators/alternators at all. What I can do, however, is make a comparison observation to question your statements/verify mine.


"So, to counter that arguement that HHO generation is only using unused electrical energy, that is totally and absolutely false. If that WERE the case, then your alternator would be getting very hot without a load attached because that "electrical energy" is being dissipated as heat - it's gotta go somewhere."

By this rationale, a 1500w 3.5hp generator would not be able to run for very long without something plugged in to it. You wouldnt be able to start it with no load and run it out of fuel without burning some thing up. And I know that you CAN do exactly that.

Also, in reference to this statement "Basically, there is a magnetic field inside the alternator, produced by a small current from the battery." if this were the case, it would seem that an alternator would not work without a battery. Taking a brand new alternator out ouf the box, I`m pretty sure that if you attatched leads from it to a small bulb and spun the pulley, it would light.....sans battery.

And finally the amount of power required by a vehicle at any given time while it is running
varies. Sometimes you use the headlights, sometimes you dont. Sometimes you listen to the radio, sometimes you dont. Just increasing the rpms alters how much electricity your car uses/alternator produces. When you start the car, it draws from it`s only available power source, the battery. Once the engine has caught, your alternator not only takes on the responsibility of providing all the electricity the car needs, it also recharges the battery. Once the battery is full, it provides so much resistance that it stops accepting current. The current that WAS going to the battery, can now go somewhere else....like an HHO generator. Let me know what you think.

[Philldpapill]

I'm not following you. I just said that the alternator is not dissipating power. How does that relate to a 1.5kW generator burning up or not starting without a load???

I know that a generator:
A) Can start just fine without a load
B) You can run out of fuel without a load

You are partially correct in saying that an alternator would work without a battery... Assuming the insides of the alternator still have a SLIGHT residual magnetization. If it has some magnetization, then the load coils will be turning through a TINY field, but this current that is produced will now run through the field coils(if you set it up right), which will create a stronger field, which will create more voltage on the load coils, and create more current until the field coils saturate. However, with a NEW alternator, it's not very likely that you can spin it and get anything out because there isn't any residual magnetization. You might, I dunno, depending on the alternator.

Yes, the power OUTPUT of the vehicle varies. The demand varies, and typically, you or the cruise controle, pushes on the gas, increasing power output. No, increasing the RPMs doesn't really increase power DEMAND. I mean, maybe a tiny bit(more sparkplug firings per second...).

Yes, you are correct that the "current" can go somewhere else once the battery is charged. However, any electrical power that the alternator produces, will come from the engine, i.e. the engine will bog down a bit. If you don't have anything connected to the alternator, it will not load the engine, except for a tiny frictional force.

The point is, you aren't wasting any power by letting the alternator just idle without a load. In fact, extracting power from the alternator is actually WASTING some power in the form of ohmic heating in the alternator coils. When current flows through the coils of the alternator, they will get warm due to a small resistance in them. If you are not loading the alternator, no current flows(or a tiny bit), which doesn't lead to any ohmic heating loses. So with that, NO, I don't think that the efficiency gain comes from extracting "unused, and otherwise wasted, energy from the alternator." It probably comes from the combustion process of the HHO acting as a fuel enhancer.

[Philldpapill]

BTW, I just noticed we're almost neighbors. :)

[Roland Jacques]

To the point....HHO burns faster than gasoline, and more efficiently. To add HHO to a gasoline combustion engine, you would substitute some of the power provided by gasoline with the combustion power provided by the HHO, allowing your engine to use less fossil fuels. When people say that HHO increases efficiency, they are refering specifically to the substitution of HHO gas for gasoline. The alternator on a vehicle produces the electricity required to "crack" the water into HHO.
One arguement is that the extra HP required to turn the alternator under the load of an HHO generator negates the HP produced by burning the HHO gas. While the efficiency of your HHO generator is a factor in this equation, it is only a factor in determining how much HHO is burned in the engine. Any time your alternator is turning it's producing current, limited only by a voltage regulator and rpms. The load on the alernator is unchanged. Example: Attatch a crank handle to car/truck alternator, then attatch a vehicle headlight to the alternator. Lets assume that turning the alternator by handcrank at 100rpms provided enough current to light the headlight at normal intensity. When turning the handcrank @100rpms, disconnect the headlight from the alternator. You`ll find that the effort required to turn the alternator does not change. Even though there is not a load on the alternator at this point, the potential current is still being generated.
With this in mind, understand that every auto alternator provides more current than your vehicle can use. With all the options running on your car; headlights, radio at full blast, power windows and seats etc, you can still plug in your cell phone charger or an ac/dc converter and a small television. The point is, there is current in reserve with no extra draw on the engine. Some people get this confused with the noticeable draw of power from the engine when the AC is turned on. This comes from the ac compressor which is activated by a clutch mechanism inside it`s own housing and is unrelated.
Based on this layout, we can deduce that there is current being unused when your engine is running. Attatching an HHO generator to that current and using it to crack water and provide supplimental combustion gas for your engine uses no more fossil fuels then are already being burned. You are basically converting unused electrical energy originally provided the burning of fossil fuels into HHO gas via an alternator and an HHO generator, thereby getting more fuel efficiency.
The only negative draw of an HHO generator over the original factory configuration of a vehicle is the added weight of the equipment. Provided that your HHO generator makes a high enough volume of gas it will not only compensate for the weight of the generator itself, but also add to the overall efficiency of your engine.
HHO does not create energy, it is simply a method to tap unused energy your engine is already producing. While my post may be late in comming, I hope this helps answer your question.


Your main point is wrong. The recouping of wasted energy from the Alternator is way off.

The addition of HHO changes you fuel/air burn caracteristicas. (most of the time to the benefit of MPG) almost always lowering emissions. Smacks videos are fairly straightforward

[Philldpapill]

What? MY main point about recouping wasted energy is wrong? Elaborate, please...

Roland, when you add HHO, you are adding a stoichiometric mixture of 2H2 and 1O2, correct? The reason you need to play with the O2 sensor, is that if you added this in directly, your ECU would think "Whooooa!" we've got a huge amount of O2 coming in... I better adjust the intake to balance out the gasoline/O2 mixture". When it does this, you know have a very disproportionate mixture of H2, gasoline, and O2. So yes, it does change the characteristics.

Now, as far as Smack goes, the guy is an absolute fraud, IMO. I've had some lengthy debates with him, and he stands his ground about a number of idiotic explainations after I've GIVEN HIM a very reasonable explaination that just so happens to coincide with actual science. He loves to talk about magnetic field alignments and other meaningless properties, when the truth can be explained by current density/power losses. Sorry if that offends anyone, but to me, when someone is trying to sell a product, and they keep denouncing logic in the face of something that disproves their selling point, I smell fish.

Besides that, the guy bugs me.

[BoyntonStu]

What? MY main point about recouping wasted energy is wrong? Elaborate, please...

Roland, when you add HHO, you are adding a stoichiometric mixture of 2H2 and 1O2, correct? The reason you need to play with the O2 sensor, is that if you added this in directly, your ECU would think "Whooooa!" we've got a huge amount of O2 coming in... I better adjust the intake to balance out the gasoline/O2 mixture". When it does this, you know have a very disproportionate mixture of H2, gasoline, and O2. So yes, it does change the characteristics.

Now, as far as Smack goes, the guy is an absolute fraud, IMO. I've had some lengthy debates with him, and he stands his ground about a number of idiotic explainations after I've GIVEN HIM a very reasonable explaination that just so happens to coincide with actual science. He loves to talk about magnetic field alignments and other meaningless properties, when the truth can be explained by current density/power losses. Sorry if that offends anyone, but to me, when someone is trying to sell a product, and they keep denouncing logic in the face of something that disproves their selling point, I smell fish.

Besides that, the guy bugs me.

Smack is a very hardworking guy who is unfortunately also very stubborn.

I believe that he is sincere but uninformed about some things.

He speaks very well and he makes some pretty good videos.

I agree with you that science and logic are paramount to any other considerations.

Even if I dislike a person, if the person has a good idea, I will appreciate it and try to neglect the personality.

A long time ago at work, I defended an idea presented by my worst enemy who really bugged me.

(His idea was sound.)


BoyntonStu


This is my definition of Science:

"Humankind's attempt to measure Nature."

[Roland Jacques]

What? MY main point about recouping wasted energy is wrong? Elaborate, please...
I was reffering to the post that i quoted. (janiskoprime) not yours.



Roland, when you add HHO, you are adding a stoichiometric mixture of 2H2 and 1O2, correct?

Some think so, i do not believe this. I think you can get more heat from HHO when more O2 or air is added ( but i dont think this is really relevant to your question)



As far as Smack goes. I like the guy. i really appreciate what he does and is doing.

I think we should try and understand that we all come from different backgrounds. Mechanical, chemistry, mathematical, electronical... at times we can have very hard time understanding one another. This can lead us to think someone is stupid, dishonest, mean... It does not necessarily mean that we are stupid mean dishonest....

My english is not all that great and I am having a hard time understanding your post in this thread. I am still not clear what your question or statement is.
"Why does HHO use result in better feul efficiency".
I think it is simply the new burn caricteristics and the relationship with the geomitry of the ICE.

[janiskoprime]

Roland, I`m interested in knowing why my point about recouping unused energy from the alternator is wrong. It all seems to make sense to me but as I have stated before, I dont know anything about alternator/generator behavior.

[Philldpapill]

Sorry, Roland - that's what I get for responding to a post when I'm running on 3 hours of sleep. :)

janiskoprime, what don't you understand? Simply turning an alternator requires VERY little energy. Turning an alternator with a load attached requires an amount of power proportional to the amount of power consumed by the load. The larger the load on the alternator, the harder it is to turn. The harder it is to turn when connected to the engine, the harder the engine works. The harder the engine works, the more fuel is needed. Period.

The simple answer, is that it does NOT recoup unused energy. Let's look at it through a thermodynamic lense. Your engine can put out whatever amount of power you want. We'll say it's 100% efficient for now. Let's consider these things:

Your alternator is 95% efficient at converting mechanical power(rotating shaft), into electrical power. Let's say your HHO cell is 100% efficient, too.

If you are drawing 20A, @ 12V, then your HHO Cell is consuming exactly 240W of power. To maintain a constant charge on the battery, all this power must come from the alternator. Considering the efficiency of the alternator, it must consume X amount of power in the form of mechanical power from the engine. With it's 95% efficieny, it will need (240W/0.95) = 252.6W of power from the engine. That's a little over 1/3 of a horsepower - not much when compared to the HP of the engine.

However, you put 252.6W in to your alternator, and only got 240W out? where did the 12.6W go??? It got turned into heat. I'm sure you've seen this in a high current HHO cell - when current is flowing through a wire, it generates heat. This is what happens in the alternator. As it's generating current, that current heats the wires inside the alternator. That's where the power loss comes from.

Now, let's consider another scenario - Now, you are only drawing 3A @ 12V for various onboard lights/electronics for your car(no HHO cell or headlights). That's 36W of power. With the efficiency accounted for, you are pulling 37.9W. That means that only 1.9W is being turned into heat. That's 660%(12.6W/1.9W) MORE power being wasted in the form of heat - just by attaching a higher load.

We could take this to an extreme and not attach anything to the alternator. Virtually no power loss that way. The point is, NO, you are not recouping any lost power. In fact, you are WASTING over 600% the amount of power you would normally be wasting with just your basic systems online.

Remember, all this is neglecting any mechanical power losses due to friction, but that doesn't matter because those losses will be constant, regardless of electrical power drain.

[Roland Jacques]

Roland, I`m interested in knowing why my point about recouping unused energy from the alternator is wrong. It all seems to make sense to me but as I have stated before, I dont know anything about alternator/generator behavior.

Even if your alternator wasted 400 watts of energy, that's only about 1/2 Horse power. The gains in MPG we see is upwards of 10%. If our autos used 25HP to drive on the Hwy, then 1/2 HP would only be 2% gain.

I dont believe no load alternator waste anywhere near 400 watts of energy. Big Rigs use way more than 25HP and still see 10% gains. Now through in all the efficiency losses of the alternator and cell. So recouping wasted alternator power (more like 1/20th of a HP IMO) could not explain the gains in MPG.

(Maybe I'm over simplifying a little but Philldpapill did a good more comprehensive so here's my version)