HHO check valves... [Archive]

bigjim56

05-17-2009, 06:57 PM

I'm in need of HHO check valves for my system. The current check valve I'm using just isn't doing the trick. I visited the websites from a search of "check valve" of this website, and I also ran across criticisms of prior purchased check valves that have broken. I want to buy the correct ones from the start. USPlastics.com has some that lift as low as 0.5 psi, but I did a search on ebay and they have quite a few of various check valves on there.

Some questions I have are...

Do you run the check valve in line from the reservoir to the bubbler, or do you "T" it? "T"ing it would allow a more unrestricted flow.

Does anyone run a second check valve between the reservoir and cell influent, to guard against backflow?

Lastly, whats best, polyehtylene or neoprene? I believe it was the poly that was guilty of cracking, but I could be wrong.

Thanks ahead for the inputs,

bigjim56

Roland Jacques

05-17-2009, 10:04 PM

This is my favorite check valve is made by Brady. i use them for aquariums...

I've only used there non spring loaded check valves they works fantistic. Much better than any other ive used. They have spring loaded ones.

http://www.campbellmfg.com/brady/products.htm#check

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MIWHEW/ref=asc_df_B000MIWHEW799332?smid=A25DVOZOPBFMAN&tag=dealt5133-20&linkCode=asn

bigjim56

05-17-2009, 10:15 PM

Roland Jacques

05-17-2009, 10:46 PM

No i never used one on an HHO system. Ive used them on pneumatics applications similar to HHO set ups. and industrial commercial and residential aquariums

bigjim56

05-17-2009, 11:09 PM

Thanks for the quick reply Roland. It looks to be a chemically resistant valve.
If it is good for saltwater aquariums, that would be an indicator of its HHO worthiness.

bigjim56

Bassman

05-17-2009, 11:18 PM

I wouldn't use any check valve with a steel spring in it. I think that you would be better off with one that doesn't have a spring and mount it so that gravity will open it.

cmac0351

05-18-2009, 04:13 PM

I saw this at an HHO website, and was wondering if it is something that could be picked up locally.

http://hhoglabs.com/images/lgcheckvalvea.jpg

bigjim56

05-18-2009, 09:39 PM

I ended up buying 4 HHO check valves off ebay. They have a lift pressure of 0.5 psi with 1/4" connections. The low lift pressure is key, the suction required to lift the bubbler water back to the reservoir is very low. If these do not work I will probably try the USPlastic.com check valves next. They're pricier, but if they work, it'll be worth it. Either way, I won't run HHO no more until I've got a good working check valve, too tired of continually flushing the bubbler.

I will probably resort to using a pH paper to see if the bubbler water is getting contamination form here on out, transporting water samples to and from the water lab is getting cumbersome too. KISS is the way to go.

Thanks everyone for the inputs!

bigjim56

Roland Jacques

05-19-2009, 08:43 AM

They have a lift pressure of 0.5 psi with 1/4" connections. The low lift pressure is key, the suction required to lift the bubbler water back to the reservoir is very low.
bigjim56

The lift pressure wont be relevant for flow going in the backward direction. lift pressure, is whats needed to send the gas forward (to the bubbler. what needed to unseat the valve. )

mileageseeker

05-19-2009, 10:31 AM

http://www.smartproducts.com/check_valves.php I have some check valves from this company, very high quality, name your spec, not cheap (around $5.00)

cmac0351

05-19-2009, 04:21 PM

Isn't there something you can get at Home Depot, Lowes, Ace, etc. that would work as a suitable check valve? Are there DIY plans for something like this? I like to build everything myself, that is part of the fun! :)

bigjim56

05-19-2009, 05:22 PM

cmac, unfortunately searching local hardware stores and plumbing supplies is very time consuming and gas wasteful. There are a lot of those around me, to save time I like to know someplace has what I'm looking for before I go there. Buying off the internet is very convenient, just sux waiting for it to arrive. I have quite a few of the water4gas check valves, but they're not for this application. These check valves are needed to work correctly in a very harsh environment, so not just any check valve will do.

mileageseeker...excellent link, thanks. If the current ones ordered do not perform, I will look harder at your contact. $5 is not bad as long as they work well and are reliable. Do you use them in your system currently?

Roland, I like the lower lift pressure because it means the HHO system works less restricted. They're 1/4" inlet/outlet sized ends, I wanted 5/16"...I've been trying to keep everything from dry cell to air intake at 5/16" to ensure an unrestricted flow throughout. This will be the only area where its down sized at all. Probably negligible, but I will see.

One last thing about this HHO setup. I was a Boiler Tech. in the Navy 75-79.
What the HHO system is, is basically a "Steam Cycle Loop". It generates HHO that expands and gets cooled again (somewhat) like condensation in a steam cycle. To prevent misdirectional flow (backwards) a check valve is used to ensure the one way flow in the right direction. I'm just hoping the 0.5 psi lift pressure is sufficient to cause the flow to go in the right direction. I wonder also if another check valve should'nt also be used at the influent to the cell to ensure the one way flow of the supply electrolite? I have'nt heard of anyone using 2 check valves yet. The cell is like a Boiler in this respect, it starts producing and gets hungry for more electrolite (feedwater) and expels the old and replenishes w/new. Without check valves, the flow could easily be reversed, or cavitation could occur. Just my $0.02.

Thanks everyone for the inputs, they're very helpful.

bigjim56

DodgeViper

05-22-2009, 08:26 AM

Make your own using a small plastic ball inside 1/2 PVC using a flat rubber washer and hose barbs. Once the system is shut down the ball will seat its self against the rubber washer. The check valve would need to be installed in the vetical position in order for the ball to fall back into the rubber washer and seal... Very simple to make... This put a stop to the siphoning of electrolyte fluid from my bubbler back into my reservoir and overflowing the reservoir through the small hole in the cap…

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/Check%20Valve.png

BoyntonStu

05-22-2009, 09:57 AM

This $2.99 valve is what I have used for months.

If it ever gets clogged with a particle, just flush it.

It withstands STRONG KOH!

http://tinyurl.com/pbj33r

BoyntonStu

cmac0351

05-22-2009, 10:14 AM

These are from www.usplastics.com

$0.72 for 1/4" barb, $1.54 for 3/8" +s&h

http://www.usplastic.com/images/products/valves/64046p.jpg

This is the one I pictured in a previous post.

$6.16-$7.35 + s&h

http://www.usplastic.com/images/products/valves/22231p.jpg

DodgeViper

05-22-2009, 11:27 AM

This $2.99 valve is what I have used for months.

If it ever gets clogged with a particle, just flush it.

It withstands STRONG KOH!

http://tinyurl.com/pbj33r

BoyntonStu

But these are very restrictive. I have a number of them and they all cut down on the flow and cause back presurre within the system... I do not like them!!! I am using a 3/8" Polypropylene Hollow Ball that weighs .2 grams and takes very little pressure to lift the ball from the rubber washer. The ball can withstand continuous working temperature of 220º F and has a diameter tolerance of .005. Because of how the check valve is designed its not restrictive at all... I made check valve so that due to the weight of the ball the ball can not rise high enough to come in contact with the discharge side of the hose barb and block the flow.

BoyntonStu

05-22-2009, 02:11 PM

But these are very restrictive. I have a number of them and they all cut down on the flow and cause back presurre within the system... I do not like them!!! I am using a 3/8" Polypropylene Hollow Ball that weighs .2 grams and takes very little pressure to lift the ball from the rubber washer. The ball can withstand continuous working temperature of 220º F and has a diameter tolerance of .005. Because of how the check valve is designed its not restrictive at all... I made check valve so that due to the weight of the ball the ball can not rise high enough to come in contact with the discharge side of the hose barb and block the flow.

Interesting comment.

I use only a single one at the input and there is no back pressure issue.

I have been thinking about building a fluid stop gap between the bubbler and the reservoir.

Basically, a reverse bubbler. Input at the top and output with a dip tube.

As long as the gap volume is less than the headspace volume in the reservoir, no bubbler fluid could be sucked back into the reservoir.

OTOH I have found that a cool running Amoeba Cell will not create enough vacuum to suck back from the bubbler.

BoyntonStu

Painless

05-22-2009, 03:09 PM

Interesting comment.

I use only a single one at the input and there is no back pressure issue.

I have been thinking about building a fluid stop gap between the bubbler and the reservoir.

Basically, a reverse bubbler. Input at the top and output with a dip tube.

As long as the gap volume is less than the headspace volume in the reservoir, no bubbler fluid could be sucked back into the reservoir.

OTOH I have found that a cool running Amoeba Cell will not create enough vacuum to suck back from the bubbler.

BoyntonStu
Unless I misunderstand your idea, won't this simply result in gas pressure pushing down on the water and forcing it through the dip tube to your engine?

cmac0351

05-22-2009, 03:48 PM

Is .5 psi cracking pressure really all that restrictive? I have seen some on ebay that have a cracking pressure of 4 psi. Maybe that is what you have tried?

But these are very restrictive. I have a number of them and they all cut down on the flow and cause back presurre within the system... I do not like them!!! I am using a 3/8" Polypropylene Hollow Ball that weighs .2 grams and takes very little pressure to lift the ball from the rubber washer. The ball can withstand continuous working temperature of 220º F and has a diameter tolerance of .005. Because of how the check valve is designed its not restrictive at all... I made check valve so that due to the weight of the ball the ball can not rise high enough to come in contact with the discharge side of the hose barb and block the flow.

BoyntonStu

05-22-2009, 04:07 PM

Unless I misunderstand your idea, won't this simply result in gas pressure pushing down on the water and forcing it through the dip tube to your engine?

The air gap is placed between the reservoir and the bubbler.

When the reservoir cools, the vacuum will draw fluid from the bubbler into the air gap (reverse bubbler).

When you re-start the cell, the HHO will force the fluid back into the bubbler where it belongs.

BoyntonStu

DodgeViper

05-22-2009, 06:17 PM

Is .5 psi cracking pressure really all that restrictive? I have seen some on ebay that have a cracking pressure of 4 psi. Maybe that is what you have tried?

I have the .5 psi valves as seen on Ebay and they are restrictive. I purchased the 3/8 valves. Not a fan oF them... With my entire system of 3/8" fittings and hoses the 1/8" to 3/16" inside diameter of the barbs on the valves and then whatever the opening is on the valve is just way to small. I have a half dozen in a bag that I will never use... Its not the cracking presurre that bothers me but the size of the openings in the barbs and the valve on these 3/8" valves... :mad: :mad: :mad:

cmac0351

05-22-2009, 07:20 PM

DodgeViper

05-22-2009, 07:54 PM

How many liters per minute are you running? My cell is for a very small 4 cylinder 1.5 liter '02 Kia Rio, so I won't be running much gas. Do you think those would work for me? I believe you are running much more gas than me.

You have the nicest looking installation I think I have ever seen by the way.

I can push as much as 6 LPM but I am holding it back to 4 LPM... Because I have run those small 3/8" valves knowing what my LPM should have been at the AMPS I was pulling I saw a very noticeable drop in AMPS and LPM while the check valves were installed. In your case I am sure it is even worse because you’re not producing all that much LPM to push open the valve and then have the gas flow throgh the small valve openings.. Very simple to check your flow though with and without the check valve installed.

Thanks for the comment. I pride myself in workmanship but at the same time I do have a very well equip shop that we build off-road race cars in... Having the correct tools makes a big difference. Although I bought my Electrolyzer I could have made one but I have limited free time...

Build yourself a check valve and be happy that you did as you will have 100 percent flow through the valve, provided you use a small ball that is light and precise in diameter...

Check out this link for the balls...

http://www.cicball.com/

bigjim56

05-23-2009, 09:11 AM

Wow, got some results w/this thread! Great to have a discussion that there's a lot of contributions, thanks.

Stu: I bought those exact valves from that ebay link last week, its what I'm using now. I like them a lot, but like Viper says, they are restrictive. I'm trying to stick with 5/16" from cell to intake, the downsize to 1/4" is itself a restrictive move. I'm still looking for a 5/16' alternative. One question for you though, are you using this on a bench system or on board your car? What works on a bench test system doesn't necessarily work on a car.

Viper: I reiterate what cmac said, I've seen the photos of your work and it looks top notch. I may go to your idea of a self-made check valve, it looks to be a great idea. I've yet to find a suitable/unrestrictive check valve, but its early yet. Your system is for a truck, do you have any foaming issues, if so how do you combat it?

Thanks everybody for the inputs, interesting ideas...food for thought.

bigjim56

BoyntonStu

05-23-2009, 09:19 AM

DodgeViper

05-23-2009, 11:17 AM

Not too shabby for 15 ea 6x6 plates, 1/32 spacing.

BoyntonStu

Stu, I see your still using my idea of the multi hole tee fitting. I have yet to give up on that entire idea but I did find that to be restrictive as well. I have a better idea and in the process of making it...

For those that watched Stu's video but do not understand the tee fitting dip tube idea. Here is my video I made when I came up with this concept. The dip tube is placed into the bubbler, this allows tiny bubbles to be made. The idea is smaller bubble means less chance of KOH of passing through into the intake where KOH could cause damage to all aluminum within the engine.

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QfCg5mtLeoo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

cmac0351

05-23-2009, 12:58 PM

I think you've talked me in to making my own, as I have about 10 feet of left over 1/2" pvc pipe lying around.

I was wondering about the ends. Did you use threaded couplings on the ends and screw the hose bards into that?

I can push as much as 6 LPM but I am holding it back to 4 LPM... Because I have run those small 3/8" valves knowing what my LPM should have been at the AMPS I was pulling I saw a very noticeable drop in AMPS and LPM while the check valves were installed. In your case I am sure it is even worse because you’re not producing all that much LPM to push open the valve and then have the gas flow throgh the small valve openings.. Very simple to check your flow though with and without the check valve installed.

Thanks for the comment. I pride myself in workmanship but at the same time I do have a very well equip shop that we build off-road race cars in... Having the correct tools makes a big difference. Although I bought my Electrolyzer I could have made one but I have limited free time...

Build yourself a check valve and be happy that you did as you will have 100 percent flow through the valve, provided you use a small ball that is light and precise in diameter...

Check out this link for the balls...

http://www.cicball.com/

DodgeViper

05-23-2009, 03:32 PM

I think you've talked me in to making my own, as I have about 10 feet of left over 1/2" pvc pipe lying around.

I was wondering about the ends. Did you use threaded couplings on the ends and screw the hose bards into that?

I used female thread fittings as you need that lip to pinch the washer between the front edge of the pvc pipe and the female fitting. Your going to need to go to the hardware store and find that perfect washer that has the same OD as the PVC... If you can't then you need to use a razor blade and trim it down. Use very little glue and make sure the glue does not spill out onto the washer.

I had thought of using a FAT rubber O-ring instead of a rubber washer and have it sized so the the ball can not fall through the O-ring but seals 2/3rds up towards the center of the ball.

cmac0351

05-23-2009, 04:52 PM

You should make a video on that, you could probably help alot of people!

I used female thread fittings as you need that lip to pinch the washer between the front edge of the pvc pipe and the female fitting. Your going to need to go to the hardware store and find that perfect washer that has the same OD as the PVC... If you can't then you need to use a razor blade and trim it down. Use very little glue and make sure the glue does not spill out onto the washer.

I had thought of using a FAT rubber O-ring instead of a rubber washer and have it sized so the the ball can not fall through the O-ring but seals 2/3rds up towards the center of the ball.

cmac0351

05-25-2009, 09:05 PM

Painless

05-26-2009, 07:28 AM

How about the ball from an old mouse?

cmac0351

05-26-2009, 10:03 AM

It needs to be much smaller than a trackball unfortunately.

bigjim56

05-26-2009, 02:06 PM

cmac,

I've been working on building my own also. During my brainstorming session trying to find something to fill the ball void. I was looking for a plastic ball, but came up with another idea instead. A dropper bulb! One of those black rubber dropper pieces from a dropper bottle (visine/etc.) Reverse it, pull out the dropper tube and use a plastic straw as an alignment post. It will seal very well with a small amount of grease/vaseline applied to the mating surfaces.The straw will need to be cut in places to allow for gas flow through.
The straw can go all the way through to the other fitting and allows a strict adherance to the up/down travel, ensuring it always comes back to rest on the exact same mating surface. Try it out, it works, you may use some washers or o-rings fitted to the straw for more weight.

bigjim56

DodgeViper

05-26-2009, 09:57 PM

I picked up some parts from Home Depot today. There was probably a better way to do this, but this is all I could find from what they had available.

I have the metal ball in the picture below that works great when assembled, but I don't think I can use it because I don't think it is stainless; it stuck to a magnet.

I was hoping to get some ideas on where I could find a plastic or stainless ball that would be the right size. I don't want to purchase this online though. The grey pipe it needs to fit inside is 1/2. I found it in the sprinkler section.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu233/cmac0351/DSC01181.jpg?t=1243299448

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu233/cmac0351/DSC01185.jpg?t=1243299666

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu233/cmac0351/DSC01186.jpg?t=1243299704

I am not sure that you would want to use a ball bearing due to the weight. I provided a link to where you can get balls from, solid rubber, stainless, plastic, etc. in an earlier post. I did email them and they will ship a few for testing without buying 100 balls. You may try McMaster Carr... Looks like your on your ways of having a working check valve...

McMaster - http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastic-balls/=21rgta

crewdog

05-26-2009, 11:08 PM

The air gap is placed between the reservoir and the bubbler.

When the reservoir cools, the vacuum will draw fluid from the bubbler into the air gap (reverse bubbler).

When you re-start the cell, the HHO will force the fluid back into the bubbler where it belongs.

BoyntonStu

That is what I was thinking of building myself. That way I would not need a check valve.

livehho

10-07-2009, 05:05 PM

Interesting comment.

I use only a single one at the input and there is no back pressure issue.

I have been thinking about building a fluid stop gap between the bubbler and the reservoir.

Basically, a reverse bubbler. Input at the top and output with a dip tube.

As long as the gap volume is less than the headspace volume in the reservoir, no bubbler fluid could be sucked back into the reservoir.

OTOH I have found that a cool running Amoeba Cell will not create enough vacuum to suck back from the bubbler.

BoyntonStu

Stu, the 'fluid stop gap' concept.. have you built it already? could you please post a simple drawing? if this works.. no need for check valve

biggy boy

10-08-2009, 11:04 AM

Thanks Roland,

Have you used this in your HHO system, between the reservoir and bubbler, you mentioned using them only in aquariums.

I agree, the spring loaded ones seem less likely to overcome the very low vacuum from cooling down of the cell components.

Its pricey, but if it works well, its well worth it.

bigjim56

I'm using one between my resivour and bubbler.
It the ball type not spring. It's gravity close.
I tried to find a link to them, but couldn't.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m297/biggy-boy/gif_1.gif