H2 to O2 ratio

[daveczrn]

wondering if anyone knew what is best for hyddrogen to burn at with oxygen? what's the ratio?

A/f ratio for gasoline is 14.5/1 for normal everyday crusing. I was wondering what the ratio would be for hydrogen to burn perfectly.

as well is there a way of figuring out what would be the best A/f ratio for a F.I. car and what would be the best way of testing it?

dave

[daveczrn]

after doing some research around i was able to find that our HHO production burns perfectly. it's required that 2 atoms of hydrogen burn with 1 atom of oxygen, and it burns back into water.

this puzzles me though. Not that the the ratio of it because that definatly makes sense. What puzzles me is the o2 sensor problems. It is believed that the 02 sensor of a car reads the extra Oxygen in the exaust and richens up the fuel. this causes a reverse effect of what we are after and it ends up using more fuel to run the automobile. Now if that is true where is the extra oxygen coming from? if hydrogen and oxygen burn perfectly coming from water without extra air added to it then there will not be any extra oxygen.

I'll see what i can come up with later for me to get this right. there is alot of info out there... it's just not all in one place.,

[jimbo40]

I have to say , you do have a real good point.
So actually since the by product is back to water after the burn, then why is the o2 sensor detecting oxygen?
Maybe the process is not complete yet and there is still oxy present.

[daveczrn]

I have to say , you do have a real good point.
So actually since the by product is back to water after the burn, then why is the o2 sensor detecting oxygen?
Maybe the process is not complete yet and there is still oxy present.



For the transformation to not be complete it would have to still be burning. Hydrogen burns quicker than gasoline does as well it would burn the valves if it were to still be burning when it exited the cycliner.

using an o2 extender is not an answer to fixing any computer problems. It is a very poor bandaid to the problem.

[dennis13030]

Using an O2 extender is not an answer to fixing any computer problems. It is a very poor bandaid to the problem.

I would tend to agree Dave. I would like to know what the ECM algorithm is related to the O2 sensor(s). When more Oxygen is detected, what is the ECM response? When less Oxygen is detected, what is the ECM response?

[daveczrn]

with more oxygen detected it should read a lean condition and add fuel. now i cant see the O2 sensor being able to "read" the oxygen content in water, unless it can in that case it would see a lean condition.

[HHOWolfen]

as I understand it, O2 sensors measure temp differences between outside and inside air, but I may be wrong

[HHOWolfen]

I believe that the best way to deal with ECUs will be to rewrite them entirely for HHO use, some genius will eventually do this

[daveczrn]

I believe that the best way to deal with ECUs will be to rewrite them entirely for HHO use, some genius will eventually do this

I agree. But i am still having trouble understanding What is the correct way to re-write the ECU? what is the Correct HHO to fuel ratio? how much can you lean the engine and still have a good combustion without engine knock?

[countryboy18]

could the steam that be being made when the HHO is burned it makes H2O but the engin is so hot that to go from H20 to steam so then the o2 sensor be affected. maby idk i am just taking a shot at it.

[Boltazar]

HHO makes the gasoline burn much more completely putting much less pollution into the atmosphere. This makes the Oxygen sensor think the engine is running to lean so it wants to enrich the gas supply.

Pete

[Pipanski]

The O2 sensors do not read temperature. They do require heat to opperate correclty though. . .that is where closed and open loop come into play if you've ever heard those terms before. They measure the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream, before and after the catalytic converter. They check to see that the cat is working correctly, and also send info back to the computer to change the air/gasoline ratio.

If they read that there is a defeciency of O2 in the exhaust stream, that means that there is too much gasoline being thrown into the engine and the computer reads a rich situation, resulting in it leaning the mixture out (this is what we want with the HHO systems to get better MPG.) If there is an excess of O2 in the exhaust stream, the computer reads a lean mixutre, and adds gasoline.

When you burn the HHO what you are trying to do is replace some of the gasoline with hydrogen. Then the computer makes the necesary adjustments and cuts back some of the gasoline it is sending into the engine. That is how you get better MPG, buy using less gasoline, replacing it with hydrogen.

[jimbo40]

When you burn the HHO what you are trying to do is replace some of the gasoline with hydrogen. Then the computer makes the necesary adjustments and cuts back some of the gasoline it is sending into the engine. That is how you get better MPG, buy using less gasoline, replacing it with hydrogen.

Don't think it's quite like that.
The HHO gas mixes with the gasoline, raising the octane and causing the gasoline to burn more completely and effiently, in turn you need to apply less pressure to the gas peddle to get the same amount of work done.
With the throttle position sensor now open less, and less air coming in, the injector pulse is lessened. Unless the O2 sensor detects the oxygen and then it kicks in a wider pulse to keep you where it thinks 14.7 to 1. is
Thats where the EFIE or the 02 extenders come in.

[dano]

Hi,

I am new to this forum, but from what i understand about the O2 sensor is it shouldn't be a problem when burning hho gas. At a website called Rainingfuel.com quoted this;

"What about the O2 sensor?

First you must know what one is and what they do. Automotive oxygen sensors,colloquially known as O2 sensors, make modern electronic fuel injection and emission control possible. They determine if the air fuel ratio exiting a gas-combustion engine is rich (with unburned fuel vapor) or lean (with excess oxygen). Closed-loop feedback-controlled fuel injection varies the fuel injector output according to real-time sensor data rather than operating with a predetermined (open-loop) fuel map. In addition to improving overall engine operation, they reduce the amounts of both unburned fuel and oxides of nitrogen from entering the atmosphere.
Unburned fuel is pollution in the form of air-borne hydrocarbons, while oxides of nitrogen (NOx gases) are a result of excess air in the fuel mixture and cause smog and acid rain. Volvo was the first automobile manufacturer to employ this technology in the late 70s, along with a 3-way catalyst.
- All that this means for you is that everything will function just fine, without a hitch.
Your O2 sensor will read that there is no unburned fuel and it will not send as much of your expensive gasoline through the injectors."

This makes sense to me , does any one here also agree? Any comments?

[godoveryou]

Okay, A couple of things:


Hydroen does not magically make gasoline burn more completely. It does lessen the amount of time it takes gasoline to seperate to the point in time under which combustion can occur. That timing is built into your engines timing, ever hear of advancing or retarding the timing? That's because gasoline combustion occurs in two stages. Seperation and ignition. The spark creates seperation, which later leads to ignition. That's why spark often occurs before the psiton is top dead center. Anyways, because of the faster seperation, more time can be spend in combustion. This combined with leaner air/fuel ratio's more more of the provide gasoline will burn. In fact, if you were to just lean the ratio's more complete combustion would occur WITHOUT hydrogen. But, that's hot, and that means NoX, a big no-no for emissions.
The only thing tempature and O2 sensors have in common is that the o2 sensor needs to be at the correct tempature to have the exhuast create an electrochemical reaction to create voltage to send to the ECM. This is why narrowband sensors only work in a vary narrow area.
Hydrogen can burn in as little as 140:1 ratios of oxygen to hydrogen. Not well, nor dependably, but it can occur. 50:1 is more reasonable.
The oxygen sensor adds more fuel because not only is it getting the naturally occuring oxygen during the intake stroke, but it's also supplemented by even more oxygen with the hh*O*.
14.7:1 air to gas ratio has nothing to due with gasoline and everything to do with you cat. It's converts most efficiently when the air and fuel is in that ratio. Your engine runs just fine leaner or richer. Actually, it runs better leaner than 14.7:1. That ratio is purely about emissions, not how well gasoline combusts.
Hydrogen doesn't give an engine more horsepower. Supplementing and engine with greater fuel and oxygen pure intake stroke does (just like with forced induction), but it's not the hydrogen. In fact, hydrogen contains significantly less energy than gasoline. The greater power levels people notice has all to do with the greater oxygen content, and the additional fuel than their engines would normally be getting.


I should probably put together an oxygen sensor FAQ for everyone.

[jim beam]

Ok, this is all well and good.. My question is, why does the o2 extenders work? After reading the first page, i thought the steam would have been the issue, and rasing the sensor pulled it up and out of the steams path...... i understand that 02 sensors do not read temp, but that does not mean the steam is not having an affect on the sensor. alot of newer car's 02 sensors run at 600 degs. They even have heaters built in to get them warm faster when you first start them.
Most cars blow out a little condensation in the mornings, no big deal. Maybe the problem is the constant steam. Could the steam be packing contamanits from the converter to the sensors?

[godoveryou]

Steam won't overly harm your emissions equipment as long as it's just water steam. Corrosion is about as bad as it gets.

O2 extenders only work sometimes, and they don't really work that well overall. The sensor is installed directly into the exhaust stream OEM, and the extender removes it from that to reduce how much unburnt fuel hits it to create voltage. Now, depending on how the exhaust runs and the velocity, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I wouldn't depend on it. I don't like the fact it's non-adjustable. I might only use one in conjunction with o2 manipulation if it was needed as a last ditch effort to get the most I could out of a system.

If you get one, be sure to try to get an isolator as well. It threads into the extender, and has just a small pinhole in it. If they extender doesn't work, that might help. But like I said, I don't like them.

[jim beam]

This is a quote from wikipedia encyclopedia,,,,,(not sure how to do quotes on here)

Its two electrodes provide an output voltage corresponding to the quantity of oxygen in the exhaust relative to that in the atmosphere. An output voltage of 0.2 V (200 mV) DC represents a lean mixture. That is one where the amount of oxygen entering the cylinder is sufficient to fully oxidize the carbon monoxide (CO), produced in burning the air and fuel, into carbon dioxide (CO2). A reading of 0.8 V (800 mV) DC represents a rich mixture, one which is high in unburned fuel and low in remaining oxygen. The ideal point is 0.45 V (450 mV) DC; this is where the quantities of air and fuel are in the optimum ratio, called the stoichiometric point, and the exhaust output mainly consists of fully oxidized CO2.


From the info I have read on here and every where, in order to "trick" the o2 sensers you need something to make the pcm think that the truck or car is running around 450mV... it also has to change mV slightly, to prevent the pcm from throwing a "fault code for a bad o2 sensor. But at the same time, to make the hho worth anything, the car/truck must run lean to make the hho system the primary sorce of fuel. Sounds to me like it's not just "tricking" the o2 sensors, but "tricking" the injectors into cutting back the fuel.

Todays question is, on a 4 sensor set up is it the pre cat, or the poast cat sensors that are causing the problems? ( or all 4) Same question for 3 sensors, and 2 sensor set ups?

Question 2 is.. has anybody, tryed hho with headers insead of manifolds?

Please rememmber, I just started with the hho study about a week ago.. I'm still building my first generator.

[Q-Hack!]

I should probably put together an oxygen sensor FAQ for everyone.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any links to something that confirms your idea that the O2 sensor is measuring fuel and not oxygen?

The reason I ask is because I was taught how to test the O2 sensor by placing it in a vice then first measure the resistance of the heater (should be ~12 ohms) then hook your DMM to the sensor side and heat it with a propane torch. Once you have it hot, you can then take the flame away and put it back on the sensor to look for a voltage change. It should read 0v without the flame and 1v with the flame. The concept being that the propane torch uses all of the oxygen in the immediate vicinity of the O2 sensor. Unless I don't understand how a propane torch works... there is no unburnt fuel in the test.

I have spent a couple of hours now looking on the internet for anything that matches your concept. So far, my conclusion is that my test and your concept don't jive.

[Jaxom]

- All that this means for you is that everything will function just fine, without a hitch.
Your O2 sensor will read that there is no unburned fuel and it will not send as much of your expensive gasoline through the injectors."


This is blatantly not true. If it were so, we wouldn't be having this discussion because noone would have any problems with the way their engine management systems respond to HHO. Also, O2 sensors do not read unburned fuel. This is a popular misconception. An O2 sensor generates a voltage which is inversely proportional to the oxygen content of the exhaust. They sense the presence of oxygen, which is why they're called oxygen sensors.

"Narrowband" O2's are not named so because of anything to do with their operating temperature. They are specifically designed to respond very quickly to changes in the oxygen content of the exhaust, and in order to acheive this sensitivity they must have a very small range in which they can read. This range is called a "response band" and is very narrow, hence the term narrowband.

O2 extenders and isolators help some people and hurt others. All they really do is desensitize the O2. I personally don't like the concept, and don't reccomend it to others.

The upstream (closest to the engine) O2s are the ones that are used for fuel trim feedback. The downstream O2s are strictly for catalytic convertor monitoring and diagnostics.

[smartHHO]

When I started doing research on the O2 sensors functionality, this is what I learned. Most likely the cause of the O2 sensor and why we have this problem with them.

O2 sensor #1 by manifold reads the out put after burn. So it sees how much O2 vs unburned fuel is in the air going out. It is looking for a certain concentration. I do work with a similar device at work that trys to keep how much oxygen is put out so they don't waste it. Very expensive stuff.

Back to the point.

So number one says OK I see 300ppm.
(ppm is parts per million).

exhaust then goes thru the exhaust and some remaining fuel is burned.

O2 sensor #2 then sees 400ppm of Oxygen and says ok, we are in spec.

So, when HHO burns, we get a cleaner more complete burn. So, since we have a more complete burn, the first sensor sees 400+.

The left over burns clean in the CC and then O2 #2 sees the output which is even higher. So, it sends the ECU a voltage telling it that we are burning way to lean, due to it does not see the lower O2 out put and the ECU dumps more fuel until it sees it's 400ppm again.

Now my numbers are just for example and only that. That is how I read on several car sites, IE FORD, DODGE and CHEVY.

Pretty much, car companys as we know are in bed with the BIG OIL. More gas we waste, the more profit they make. They could come out with a better solution, IE when we lean our cars down.

But, since they don't want to come up with a super lube that keeps the frictino down and the heat. We are stuck with what we have to mess with.

I did see a lube long time ago where they ran this stuff in the oil, and with no water thru the block, kept it up near 6000 RPM for over 5 min with no temp increase. Maybe BS, due to it was one of those TV adverts.

Take my info for what its worth. That is what I read and that is our problem for the O2 sensors.