This is frusterating

[velorossa22]

So I've been using my dry cell on my 96 subaru with no positive results. I get consistantly the same mileage with and without my cell. What's worse is after 400 miles it starts to gum up my throttle body and IAC and makes for weird throttle issues. My cell produces 1lpm at 20A and I can see plenty of gas through the bubbler. I don't think it has gas leaks. I suspect KOH a cultprit of the throttle body issues.
Yet a trip to the water4gas forum yields lots of results that are doubling gas mileage with the hokie mason jar and tin foil wrapped o2 sensor. So many people have such claims makes me believe there is something to that.
Also I reached better results a while back with my water4gas setups. Maybe I should just go back to that:eek:
But really I wonder why they get such better results with less LPM...

[Q-Hack!]

But really I wonder why they get such better results with less LPM...

The reason the W4G folks appear to have better results, is because they are not telling you the full story. What they are seeing is the mpg gains from leaning out the engine... to the point that it is dangerous for the engine. They don't have enough HHO to counter the O2 sensor mod.

First and foremost, get yourself an Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge or EGT. They can be pricey but will tell you a lot about what is actually going on. Take a set of base line temp readings without any modifications to the vehicle. Then when you start modding you can do it safely without burning up the engine. The actual temps will vary from installation to installation, but should be in the 700-1300 degrees Fahrenheit range depending on how close you have your sensor mounted to the exhaust port, your style of driving... etc...

Some folks will tell you to just use the water temperature gage. Not a good idea, especially if you have any aluminium parts in your engine (like the heads.) By the time the water temp rises you are already in the danger zone. Best to use the EGT for an instantaneous reading.

You are going to find that it takes a lot more HHO than you imagined to get the results you are looking for. You didn't say what size your engine is, but a good rule of thumb is to start with 1 LPM of HHO for every 1 Litre of engine. Even then you may not be producing enough for any true gains. Just make sure that you don't over draw power on the alternator.

[gashead]

So I've been using my dry cell on my 96 subaru with no positive results. I get consistantly the same mileage with and without my cell. What's worse is after 400 miles it starts to gum up my throttle body and IAC and makes for weird throttle issues. My cell produces 1lpm at 20A and I can see plenty of gas through the bubbler. I don't think it has gas leaks. I suspect KOH a cultprit of the throttle body issues.
Yet a trip to the water4gas forum yields lots of results that are doubling gas mileage with the hokie mason jar and tin foil wrapped o2 sensor. So many people have such claims makes me believe there is something to that.
Also I reached better results a while back with my water4gas setups. Maybe I should just go back to that:eek:
But really I wonder why they get such better results with less LPM...

i would go back to the water4gas design. all the mmw and liter per minute hype of the drycells doesnt seem to prove any mpg gains. but the old wet cells are what seems to improve milage. for me im sticking with what works.

[velorossa22]

Thanks for the input. Qhack I am ordering a EGT as I'm afraid to modify the AFR much without it since I don't have a car I can sacrifice right now. I'm not giving up quite yet on dry cells, but I'm realizing there needs to be more thought on it before I get it up and running again and before I ruin my Throttle body.
I might try to work backwards a little and see why the difference is occuring between us and them. I'm kinda wondering if there's something that we're missing. I'm also going to do some research on their site.
Sorry I wrote the previous post when I was frustrated.

[Q-Hack!]

i would go back to the water4gas design. all the mmw and liter per minute hype of the drycells doesnt seem to prove any mpg gains. but the old wet cells are what seems to improve milage. for me im sticking with what works.

Keep in mind that if you are going with the idea of increasing the humidity of the air flow, much like the old prop airplanes would see an increase in performance at low level over the oceans. Then you probably don't want to be using electrolysis. The biggest issue is that the electrolyte contains chemical compounds that are bad for your engine. Specificly Sodium Hydroxide or Potasium Hydroxide. Even if you are using baking soda, it breaks down into NaOH during electrolysis

NaHCO3+H2O yields NaOH+C2+H2+O2

In other words; Sodium Hydroxide + Carbon Monoxide + HHO. Unless you don't mind eating the aluminium parts, keep it out of the engine.

If you really want to increase the humidity, then use one of those piezoelectric buzzer humidifiers and only distilled water. Not only will you get good clean humidity, but you will also have a much reduce amp draw on the alternator.

[velorossa22]

So are you saying that possibly the increase in mileage on the w4g designs and wet cell designs might be due to water vapor? If so that might make a some sense.
How are you keeping KOH and NaOH out of engine? Does more than one bubbler need to be used?

[Q-Hack!]

So are you saying that possibly the increase in mileage on the w4g designs and wet cell designs might be due to water vapor? If so that might make a some sense.
How are you keeping KOH and NaOH out of engine? Does more than one bubbler need to be used?

Personally I haven't tested this concept. It is a theory put forth by many of the W4G crowd. I am just stating that allowing your electrolyte vapour into the engine is a real bad idea. Many on this forum have had real bad experiences with it.

I currently use two bubblers. I then use a brown napkin stuffed into a clear water separator (designed for pneumatic air compressors). This allows me to quickly see if any moisture is going into the engine. I may test out the humidity theory someday, but currently am going with dry HHO only.

[gashead]

Personally I haven't tested this concept. It is a theory put forth by many of the W4G crowd. I am just stating that allowing your electrolyte vapour into the engine is a real bad idea. Many on this forum have had real bad experiences with it.

I currently use two bubblers. I then use a brown napkin stuffed into a clear water separator (designed for pneumatic air compressors). This allows me to quickly see if any moisture is going into the engine. I may test out the humidity theory someday, but currently am going with dry HHO only.

i have been running the w4g systems for over a year on different vehicles. i have had no pitting ( yet ). my drycell will out produce the wet in a big way but doesnt increase the milage. both seem to make the same power increase. also not having to run an efie with w4g on one with 20% increase on average

[velorossa22]

Do you think the 2 bubblers are removing most of the contaminants? Obviously one is not doing the trick.
I really want to believe in the dry cell, but so far I haven't seen anyone get much difference in their dry cell vs w4g in terms of mileage. Dry cells of course out perform w4g in MMW and total LPM, but it almost seems as if there is something counteracting the extra gas, or that the car is not actually using it.

[Franky]

This is very interestig...
Velorossa, like yourself, I also want to believe in the Drycell, and If you look at most wetcell suppliers, many of them changed to the drycell...

Yesterday I build my 12" tall (2" width) bubbler in the car, but I think I will build another one next to it. I dont want any hydrogen embrittlement in my car.
Hopefully today my system will work for the first time in my car, still have some wiring to do...

Q-hack, What are your gains so far? Did you try a wettcell earlier, before your drycell?

Franky

[Q-Hack!]

This is very interestig...

Q-hack, What are your gains so far? Did you try a wettcell earlier, before your drycell?

Franky

Yes, my first cell was a Smack's style wetcell, with an output of .7 LPM. I then built a Zerofossilfuel design VSPB, that ouput was 1.2 LPM . Now I have a home made drycell sorta based on the EBN design. It outputs 4LPM @ around 60 amps. With the first two I saw absolutely no results that I could attribute to the HHO. My gains were only attributed to the EFIE. Once I purchased my EGT, it showed me that I was doing more harm to the engine than I liked. Now with the drycell I have noticed that my EGT temps are slightly lower, but it is still too early to tell if my 4LPM of HHO is actually helping out or not. BTW this is on a 3.0 litre Saturn VUE. I had to beef up the alternator to handle the extra current draw. Currently I am running several tanks of gas to see how the engine responds without the EFIE and just the HHO. My current thought is that with the slightly lower EGT I can probably run the EFIE such that my EGT's come back up to normal and that might increase my MPG. However, my new alternator does load down the engine quite a bit, so it may all be for nought.

[Franky]

I see, It would be nice to get some nice results.
4LPM @ around 60 amps thats quit impressive, although the 60amps is indeed a lot and alternatortuning is a must.

I have run my drycell in my car yesterday for the first time, I havent tested lpm /mmw yet, I first need a decent ampmeter. If the amps are about 25-30 then I dont need to upgrade my alternator, I am curious what results it brings.

Frank

[velorossa22]

Cool design Qhack. This would be a really good test to see. If you can't get significantly better mileage from this then we are barking up the wrong tree!