Drycell plate preperation

[Franky]

Hi Guys,

I am Franky and I have been reading a lot for a while, but now I am going to post my first post on a forum ever...
Specific searching can be very time consuming and I would like to build my Drycell this weekend so here is my question.

Yesterday I finally got my lasercut 316L 6x6 inch plates. I want to build a drycell as a 5n3 (but I think I will start with a 5n2 to test the difference in output and so). I have all the parts I need, gaskets, endplates, hoses and so on, so I now need to preperate the plates...

What is the best way to clean and preperate or condition the plates before assembling the drycell... because I dont want it to be a crycell.

I have red that putting the plates in naoh for 7 days would be good...

As an electrolyte I bought 90% pure KOH, which I would mix in a 20-30% ratio. So I assume that you can also lay it in some koh right? Or is cross-sanding and just cleaning enough. I have red that the right preperation and conditioning is very important...

Looking forward to see some answers, thanks!!

Franky

[Painless]

Franky,

Cross sand with course sandpaper and thoroughly rinse your plates to remove dust residue. Next, place them in a weak mix of either KOH or NaOH and distilled water overnight.

Assemble your cell then mix up another weak batch of KOH electrolyte and run your cell with this solution for several days non-stop. The idea here is to run a very low amp draw to 'bed' the plates in and remove any unwanted material from the plates.

It's a good idea to stop the cell once a day during the bed in and drain the electrolyte through a coffee filter to remove any particles.

Russ.

[Franky]

Russ,

Thanks, well explained. My batterycharger is 5 amps, thats low enough right?

Also I forgot to ask, my SS suplier mentioned that near the edges where some small amounts of foil is left (after taking the foil off) I should clean it at the edges with tinner. Would that be bad?

He also said that by ultrasonic cleaning it would be cleaned perfectly well. I dont know how much that would cost but is it better that way regarding the unwanted plate material?

Franky

[Painless]

I'm afraid I don't know what 'tinner' is...

I wouldn't worry about going to the limit of ultrasonic cleaning, the most important part of the process is the bedding in at low amps... 5 amps will be fine to start with. During this process certain elements within the plates will be 'leached' out by electrolysis.

Russ.

[Franky]

Russ,

I am sorry I meant "thinner". In Europe we use it to make the paint more "thin", so less thick. Its a chemical solution. Also car painters use it to clean the spraying device.
Since I only have to clean of the foil leftovers at the outer edges I wouldnt think that it could do any harm.

I couldn't find distilled water in my village so I couldnt clean anything.
However on the internet I've red that the distilled water in Europe is not as clean as the distilled water in the USA. Because here some solvents are added. The container says do not drink it!
I have red that the distilled water in the USA which can be bought at every supermarket can be drinked, is that true?
I asked this because a doctor named Norman W. Walker who was specialized in juices and who was still active till the age of 99 years, said drinking distilled water is better for your health as drinking tapwater (here we always drink tapwater).

Maybe I should boil the distilled water before using it in the cell? Or are the solvents not a real problem...

I have almost no fingerprints on it but there are some, should I clean this with dishwashersoap?

What is a weak KOH solution 10%? or is it better to buy a bottle of NaOH.

I do have some other simple questions for my drycell, but I will ask them in a new thread or find it somewhere first.

Franky

[Franky]

Finally I found real Distilled water.

Removing fingerprints on SS, can I do this with dishwashing soap? or should I only use distilled water for cleaning and nothing else? :confused:

Anyone? Thanks!

[Franky]

Franky,

Cross sand with course sandpaper and thoroughly rinse your plates to remove dust residue. Next, place them in a weak mix of either KOH or NaOH and distilled water overnight.

Assemble your cell then mix up another weak batch of KOH electrolyte and run your cell with this solution for several days non-stop. The idea here is to run a very low amp draw to 'bed' the plates in and remove any unwanted material from the plates.

It's a good idea to stop the cell once a day during the bed in and drain the electrolyte through a coffee filter to remove any particles.

Russ.


Russ, or someone else.
Today, after my reservoir was built I finally could "bed" in the plates.
I ran the drycell with about 10% KOH for 8 hours nonstop. I thought the brown gunk wouldnt appear at my cell because the water looks crystal clear, even now, and I cleaned them very well before assembly.
When I looked at the bottom of the cell I saw ugly brown gunk leaking trough the gaskets, the gunk is about a theespoon (not tablespoon) full and most of it in the middle of the Cell, only underneath, also some near the endplates -> I have to say that I did make a big mistake using double layered gaskets, which is reinforced with small rope inside. I dont know how the english word for these gaskets are, but of course small amounts of water leaks trough these tiny holes, where these small ropeline inlays are.

I am running my 19 plates, 5nx3 with a batterycharger that is I believe 6-10 amps. I cant measure it since my multimeter doesnt measure amps anymore, probably fryed it, all the other things do work (voltage)

Question, Is it correct that this brown gunk only appears in the bottom of the cell, and not vissable in the water? (in my case leaking out, Oh the bolts are really really fast thightend)

I think because of my bad lpm output now, it stays below in the cell and with much more amps applied it would merge with the water, am I right?
Or am I doing something really bad here.

I can replace the 2mm gaskets that I now use with 1,3mm gaskets that are from one solid peace. .050 I believe.

What should I do now, continue with these gaskets and clean out almost none brown gunk in the water but scrape it of the bottum of the cell?

One stupid question, 3 days would be fine isnt it? or also 3 nights?

Regards,
Frank

[H2OPWR]

Russ, or someone else.
Today, after my reservoir was built I finally could "bed" in the plates.
I ran the drycell with about 10% KOH for 8 hours nonstop. I thought the brown gunk wouldnt appear at my cell because the water looks crystal clear, even now, and I cleaned them very well before assembly.
When I looked at the bottom of the cell I saw ugly brown gunk leaking trough the gaskets, the gunk is about a theespoon (not tablespoon) full and most of it in the middle of the Cell, only underneath, also some near the endplates -> I have to say that I did make a big mistake using double layered gaskets, which is reinforced with small rope inside. I dont know how the english word for these gaskets are, but of course small amounts of water leaks trough these tiny holes, where these small ropeline inlays are.

I am running my 19 plates, 5nx3 with a batterycharger that is I believe 6-10 amps. I cant measure it since my multimeter doesnt measure amps anymore, probably fryed it, all the other things do work (voltage)

Question, Is it correct that this brown gunk only appears in the bottom of the cell, and not vissable in the water? (in my case leaking out, Oh the bolts are really really fast thightend)

I think because of my bad lpm output now, it stays below in the cell and with much more amps applied it would merge with the water, am I right?
Or am I doing something really bad here.

I can replace the 2mm gaskets that I now use with 1,3mm gaskets that are from one solid peace. .050 I believe.

What should I do now, continue with these gaskets and clean out almost none brown gunk in the water but scrape it of the bottum of the cell?

One stupid question, 3 days would be fine isnt it? or also 3 nights?

Regards,
Frank

Frank, If those gaskets are leaking at all replace them with neoprene or nitrile gaskets. 10 hours is not enough time for the clensing process. Many times wou will not see the brown gunk in your water for a day or 2. What you are seeing is part of the leaching process. Please do not run a device with leaking gaskets. That KOH is nasty stuff to be leaking. 3 days and nights is what Russ was saying.

Larry

[Franky]

some questions below

Larry thanks,

This is day 3 now (also at night) and I filtered with a coffee filter, the water is much more brown now, and stays brown when filtered with the coffee filter. I did get pretty much dark particles out of them, so I am glad I filtered the water suggested by Russ.

By the way I have changed the leaking .080 gaskets with .050 neoprene gaskets. Compressed they are .030 Isnt that way to thin? Or will it work okay?
A lot of bubbles keep staying in the cell (I use clear endplates) with only 5 amps applied by the batterycharger. Do the bubbles inside leave faster when its run with lets say 25 amps?? or will it build more pressure inside?

I have to drive 450 miles the day after tomorrow, and I would love to test my cell.

I also noticed that some watervapour is carried with the gas out from the reservoir, small waterbubbles are visable in the hose and at the lowest point in the 1/2" hose there actually is a little bath of electrolyte (vapoured and then laying together/sorry my english might be strange sometimes).
So if this is the case then all the guys with no bubblers (some kits sold on Ebay) get this in their enigines..... not good.... :eek:
I am going to build my bubbler tomorrow. Something like Russ his mk2 bubbler.
Then build all of it in my car!.... exiting...

In the beginning I saw the gasflow was not as steady as it is now, why is this?

Anyone for some answers on my questions?

Thanks!

Frank

[H2OPWR]

some questions below

Larry thanks,

This is day 3 now (also at night) and I filtered with a coffee filter, the water is much more brown now, and stays brown when filtered with the coffee filter. I did get pretty much dark particles out of them, so I am glad I filtered the water suggested by Russ.

By the way I have changed the leaking .080 gaskets with .050 neoprene gaskets. Compressed they are .030 Isnt that way to thin? Or will it work okay?
A lot of bubbles keep staying in the cell (I use clear endplates) with only 5 amps applied by the batterycharger. Do the bubbles inside leave faster when its run with lets say 25 amps?? or will it build more pressure inside?

I have to drive 450 miles the day after tomorrow, and I would love to test my cell.

I also noticed that some watervapour is carried with the gas out from the reservoir, small waterbubbles are visable in the hose and at the lowest point in the 1/2" hose there actually is a little bath of electrolyte (vapoured and then laying together/sorry my english might be strange sometimes).
So if this is the case then all the guys with no bubblers (some kits sold on Ebay) get this in their enigines..... not good.... :eek:
I am going to build my bubbler tomorrow. Something like Russ his mk2 bubbler.
Then build all of it in my car!.... exiting...

In the beginning I saw the gasflow was not as steady as it is now, why is this?

Anyone for some answers on my questions?

Thanks!

Frank

Frank, If the water is brown and stays brown I would drain it, rinse the cell with distilled water and refill it with fresh electrolite solution. That will be your only way of telling if the clensing process is complete.

At higher amps you will always have more gas bubbles between the plates. As you make more gas more will exit but you are constantly making more all the time. The extra gas will force more of the electrolite out of the cell leaving your percentage of gas to electrolite higher.

As far as the gap that is a hotly debated question with many people having many different ideas as to what is best. Much of it depends on your actual cell size and number of plates. Personally I like a wider gap. From my experience the gas exiting the cell took too much of the electrolite with it when my gap was too small. Stu seems to be making the small gap work great for his use but I an running a 3 mm gap in mine and absolutely love it.

I am in the process of building a new no hole cell and those gaps will be 2 mm wide. I did like some of the results with the 1 mm gap I was running previously. When the cell was warmed up I has slightly better effeciency with the 1 mm gap. When the cell is cold I have WAY better effeciency with the wider gap. I am not sure why but all my test results comfirm that to me. The 2 mm gap is a comprimize trying to get the best of both worlds.

Larry

[Franky]

Larry, great idea, I also would like to go for the best of both worlds, especially because I most of the time drive only 10 miles trips.
So with the 2mm gap you actually mean the gap, compressed in the drycell. Then you would have a 3mm gasket or so.

Frank

[H2OPWR]

Larry, great idea, I also would like to go for the best of both worlds, especially because I most of the time drive only 10 miles trips.
So with the 2mm gap you actually mean the gap, compressed in the drycell. Then you would have a 3mm gasket or so.

Frank

Frank, I really do not think that most gaskets will compress 50%. If they do you should move to a material a little harder on the Duro scale. I am using 70 Duro Nitrile and like it very much. If you want a 2 mm gap just get 1/8" nitrile or neoprene. When compressed you should be close to 2 mm.

Larry

[HHO BLASTER]

Larry, did you ever get back those special coated plates?

Gary

[H2OPWR]

Larry, did you ever get back those special coated plates?

Gary

Yes I have the plates back. I am building the vessel to house them now. I am doing away with all the holes and any possibility of current leakage. I have cut the 1" acrylic material to size and have them at a machine shop now milling in slots to hold the plates. I should get them back today and start assembling them this weekend. Solvent welding and preparing the acrylic for a strong leak proof seal is very exacting work and takes time. I built an acrylic resevoir that I have pressure tested up to 50 psi with no leaks. It is all made from 1/2" acrylic sheet. I hope to begain the plate clensing process by next week.

Larry

[HHO BLASTER]

:D Larry if you want to experiment with only two plates of the special coating to compare with regular Stainless steel of two plates, I can build you my BRUTE FORCE POWER SUPPLY, then you can set it for around 1.5 to 2.5 volts, and with only two plates, there will be zero leakage so the data will not be effected by leakage.

You can also turn it up to as high as 15 volts @ 100 amps

I'm waiting for my high current diodes, but as soon as I get them, I would like to give it to you. It would be my small contribution to your hard work on HHO

Gary

[H2OPWR]

:D Larry if you want to experiment with only two plates of the special coating to compare with regular Stainless steel of two plates, I can build you my BRUTE FORCE POWER SUPPLY, then you can set it for around 1.5 to 2.5 volts, and with only two plates, there will be zero leakage so the data will not be effected by leakage.

You can also turn it up to as high as 15 volts @ 100 amps

I'm waiting for my high current diodes, but as soon as I get them, I would like to give it to you. It would be my small contribution to your hard work on HHO

Gary

A variable voltage power supply would be the ticket to some in depth experimentation on voltage per plate gap with coated plates vs non coated plates. One of the biggest advantages to nano coating is the ability to effeciently make electrolosis happen at lower voltage. I will have 4 extra plates that I have had coated not going into this build.

Larry

[HHO BLASTER]

A variable voltage power supply would be the ticket to some in depth experimentation on voltage per plate gap with coated plates vs non coated plates. One of the biggest advantages to nano coating is the ability to effeciently make electrolosis happen at lower voltage. I will have 4 extra plates that I have had coated not going into this build.

Larry

Great, it's yours you can crank it as low as you want even down to 1/2 a volt by just pulling out one secondary winding no tools or soldering iron needed, here is a picture of mine, but please keep in mind the diodes on the next ones will be two 80 amp diode metal cased bridges in parallel, bolted to a large finned heat sink, and I will throw in a fan, so you can run this for many hours at a time

The diode bridges will be from the same manufactures lot, but I’m going to match them up as much as possible so they both share about same current, I’m sure 100 to 140 amps will be possible

Gary:D

[HHO BLASTER]

<a href="http://s601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/HHO_BLASTER/?action=view&current=IMG_0014.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/HHO_BLASTER/IMG_0014.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[HHO BLASTER]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/HHO_BLASTER/IMG_0016.jpg

[HHO BLASTER]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/HHO_BLASTER/IMG_0017.jpg

[HHO BLASTER]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/HHO_BLASTER/IMG_0032.jpg

[HHO BLASTER]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/HHO_BLASTER/IMG_0035.jpg


Those diodes have been kicking around for 35 years

[Q-Hack!]

Dude, that is a beast! Straight out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab. Awsome!

[HHO BLASTER]

Dude, that is a beast! Straight out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab. Awsome!

Thanks LOL dam enclosers cost to much, but hell it's a work tool

Gary

[truckman1966]

That's military spec wire! i've used lots of that stuff! good choice

[Painless]

Wow! That *IS* a beast! Perhaps there is an indoor power option for the monster cell after all!

[HHO BLASTER]

Nay, plugs into normal AC out let i'm going to test my input AC current with a 100 amp DC load and let you know what it is

[HHO BLASTER]

That's military spec wire! i've used lots of that stuff! good choice

Yes my old boss from 30 years ago, is a buddy of mine sometimes i work for him but mostly i do my satellite TV work or my videoeyewitness.com work.
I got the wire off of him it's tough stuff used for the military 50k generaters and not easy to wind on the MOT (microwave transformer) i knocked out the shunts to make more room for that wire i had to use a awl to get the last 3 turns of wire onto the secondary. I could have got one more turn on, but then the supply would not go low enough in voltage.

Gary

[H2OPWR]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/HHO_BLASTER/IMG_0017.jpg

Thanks Gary, Make some that you can sell and I will show it in my video with the nano coated plates. There are very many people waiting for the results. From all the information that I can gather the results should be outstanding to say the least. I just wish the entire thing was not so darn expensive to test. But as they say progress is not cheap or easy.

Larry

[HHO BLASTER]

Thanks Gary, Make some that you can sell and I will show it in my video with the nano coated plates. There are very many people waiting for the results. From all the information that I can gather the results should be outstanding to say the least. I just wish the entire thing was not so darn expensive to test. But as they say progress is not cheap or easy.

Larry

Ok Larry i will put some pressure on my diode supplier but to a point or the price may go up, their english sucks, so its emails. Problem is when i'm up their sleeping there, they claim to have a warehouse in the States but who knows for sure

I can't wait to see what my supply and your nano plates can do. If i build them my price will be $99.00 plus $10.00 shipping & handling in the states

Gary :D