H2O vs HHO

[BoyntonStu]

It seems that the smoke is clearing.

A few years ago when HHO cells were puny, there were many who claimed that they achieved higher MPG.

Today, with some folks producing 4-5 LPM the success stories are as scarce as hen's teeth.

What has changed?

It appears to me that the old tried and true method of water injection was the key factor, and not HHO.

Thanks, to Gary for bringing up water injection for perking my curiosity.


Are we on the right track here?


BoyntonStu

[Painless]

As I've mentioned more than once before, I believe there are benefits to both.

Water4gas has been successfull, mainly in smaller engines, due to the fact that its basically a boiling kettle pumping small amounts of water vapour through vacuum.

The downside is that vacuum facilities have changed in recent years since the advent of electronic ignition. I remember in my teen years tuning the timing on my ford escort with a strobe light, by turning the distributor. The ignition took rpm and load into consideration by a vacuum line from the carbs air intake which was load related. I.E. Low load low vacuum and vice versa. This is the ideal vacuum for a home made and cheap WI system. All you would need to do is get your needle size correct and place it into the vacuum hose.

Now, take my 2006 Ram, the only vacuum facilities that I can find on it are taken from behind the butterfly where vacuum is high at low load and vice versa. No good at all for a decent vacuum based WI setup. I have experimented with achieving suction for such a system from the air intake, however, even with a venturi not enough usable suction is possible. The only way I can see it working would be for the entire intake system to breath through a water canister.

HHO has its benefits when it is vapour free, but then we need to meet the 1-2 LPM minimum for gains.

A combination of the two is what I'm experimenting on at the moment. My secondary bubbler contains a 50/50 mix of distilled water and denatured alcohol. The smell of the alcohol is prominent on the HHO line at the intake.

From my readings, I've learnt that the denatured alcohol or methanol when mixed with the water will enter solution with it. The alcohol molecules have little surface tension or cohesion and therefore are easily evaporated by the bursting HHO bubbles for carrying to the intake. In addition, from what I've read, the alcohol vapours carry the water vapour with them and don't release it until they encounter the heat of the combustion chamber.

Methanol is apparently even more effective than water if used at 100%, however, I've also read that its pretty nasty stuff if its vapour gets inhaled. Denatured alcohol providews similar benefits and is safer (as long as you don't drink it!).

I've rambled a bit, but my main point is that there is, in my opinion, benefit to both HHO and H2O.

Russ.

[Gary Diamond]

I guess a very simple test would be to take a working car with a HHO device and a MPG digital meter.

Now bypass the bubbler for a short time and see if the MPG shows a higher reading

[Painless]

I'm not sure I would trust the output of a digital MPG gauge, unless it was actually measuring injector pulse width. Most of them go by known engine capacity and load measurement.

[Roland Jacques]

So where are we? poorer results with more HHO.

Is it the lack of steam OR does our engine's timing need to be retarded more with more HHO? I allway thought to get max return form HHO boosting your ignition should be sparking AFTER TDC. (like 5-10) degrees Just a thought.

[BoyntonStu]

So where are we? poorer results with more HHO.

Is it the lack of steam OR does our engine's timing need to be retarded more with more HHO? I allway thought to get max return form HHO boosting your ignition should be sparking AFTER TDC. (like 5-10) degrees Just a thought.

I agree.

What is needed is a 1 cu in 4 stroke model aircraft engine that was built in the 1950's and was spark ignition and it ran on gasoline.

We could play with timing, etc.

Within a short period of time, we would know exactly what the true HHO story is.

BoyntonStu

Does anyone have one of these spark engines in their attic?

[Roland Jacques]

A gas generator may be a good engine for testing (12 volt output even better) if you can adjust the timing on it.

[Gary Diamond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSa9UGE4gao

[H2OPWR]

I agree.

What is needed is a 1 cu in 4 stroke model aircraft engine that was built in the 1950's and was spark ignition and it ran on gasoline.

We could play with timing, etc.

Within a short period of time, we would know exactly what the true HHO story is.

BoyntonStu

Does anyone have one of these spark engines in their attic?

Stu, I have run on to another idea worthy of a try. I think I will do it as the weather warms up. It could provide everyone with some answers and proof one way or another.

Honda makes a line of small engines. One model is the GC160AQHAF 5HP. Northern Tools sells them for $179.00 plus shipping. They have an actual timing belt (simple enough to change the engine timing to whatever you want). They also have electronic ignition eliminating the waste spark. Seems to me that one of these hooked up to an automotive alternator would be a great test bed. I also happen to have a new alternator that could be used. Just rig it up for HHO injection. Fill it up with gasoline only all the way to the top. Then hook up a 50 amp or so load. Like an electrolizer. Run the engine without HHO on only gasoline and time the amount of time it takes to run all the way out of fuel. Then hook the HHO up and fill the tank with gas again. Run it again until it runs out of fuel again timing it. This could be done with many different timing adjustments and at different loads. Water injection could even be incorporated as well.

All this could be done for less than most of us spend on just one cell and would provide valuable data if done correctly. When the snow melts I will be attempting this.

Larry

[Gary Diamond]

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1947-ARDEN-09-SPARK-IGNITION-MODEL (http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1947-ARDEN-09-SPARK-IGNITION-MODEL-ACFT-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ250389284922QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item250389284922&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)


http://i.ebayimg.com/04/!BOcUlNg!2k~$(KGrHgoH-D!EjlLl0oH(BJussTRRuQ~~_1.JPG

[Gary Diamond]

Stu, I have run on to another idea worthy of a try. I think I will do it as the weather warms up. It could provide everyone with some answers and proof one way or another.

Honda makes a line of small engines. One model is the GC160AQHAF 5HP. Northern Tools sells them for $179.00 plus shipping. They have an actual timing belt (simple enough to change the engine timing to whatever you want). They also have electronic ignition eliminating the waste spark. Seems to me that one of these hooked up to an automotive alternator would be a great test bed. I also happen to have a new alternator that could be used. Just rig it up for HHO injection. Fill it up with gasoline only all the way to the top. Then hook up a 50 amp or so load. Like an electrolizer. Run the engine without HHO on only gasoline and time the amount of time it takes to run all the way out of fuel. Then hook the HHO up and fill the tank with gas again. Run it again until it runs out of fuel again timing it. This could be done with many different timing adjustments and at different loads. Water injection could even be incorporated as well.

All this could be done for less than most of us spend on just one cell and would provide valuable data if done correctly. When the snow melts I will be attempting this.

Larry

Sounds good to me, my gut feeling is that the HHO and the water injection, together will out do the others

Gary

[H2OPWR]

Sounds good to me, my gut feeling is that the HHO and the water injection, together will out do the others

Gary

I do beleive that with this small of engine that the ultrasonic pump from a humidifier would provide plenty of water and timing could be left more normal. I wish the snow was gone and the weather at least in the 40's. Right now it would be miserable to do this and we will still probably get at least another foot of snow or more. It will have to wait at least for me.

Larry

[H2OPWR]

What really would be fun would to add a plasma spark from one of the boards Shane is making into the mix.

Larry

[Gary Diamond]

I do beleive that with this small of engine that the ultrasonic pump from a humidifier would provide plenty of water and timing could be left more normal. I wish the snow was gone and the weather at least in the 40's. Right now it would be miserable to do this and we will still probably get at least another foot of snow or more. It will have to wait at least for me.

Larry

Right now its 37 degrees at 10:21pm what it up were you are

[Painless]

My sons go-kart has a small briggs and straton 4-stroke engine with it's own oil sump, I think I will run some tests on this as soon as the weather gets more predictable.

[H2OPWR]

Right now its 37 degrees at 10:21pm what it up were you are

Right now a balmy 30 degrees but this morning it was 12 and yesterday morning below zero.

Larry