Pumps, Foam, Tubing

[DodgeViper]

Has anyone experimented using a low volume pump to pump the electrolyte through the cells and back to the reservoir? If you have did it decrease the amount of foam entering the bubbler? Also I am wondering if the output tubing say, ¾” tubing between the cells and the bubbler would help eliminate the foam. I am thinking of less pressure may not allow to push the foam into the bubbler. When producing nearly 3.5 LPM of HHO I am getting to much foam leaving my first bubbler and heading towards my 2nd bubbler that contains vinegar.

I do NOT want to ruin a motor or the aluminum within the motor due to the harsh use of Potassium Hydroxide.

All these pumps are 12v DC that can pump from 80 GPH to 200 GPH. I have used a few of these pumps on computer projects I use to do years ago.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/12v%20DC%20Pump.png

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/Pump%201.png

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/pump%202.png

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/pump%204.png

[hhoconnection]

I know that people have tried a pump hoping to get better production with no luck, but I don't think they tried it for foam. The only way that I have found to eliminate the foam coming from the cell itself is to lower the input to the reservoir lower than the output of the cell. I had issues with heat over long runs because the electrolyte did not flow as well as it should. Perhaps if you lower the reservoir and then use a pump for circulation, that might work.

Someone pointed out that making sure everything was really clean helps. Just a little oil from a new reservoir or tubes can make a lot of foam. I pretty much gave up trying to control the foam at the cell itself, but if you want to kill the foam as soon as it hits your reservoirs, use a little foam disperser. I buy it at a pool store. It is to control foam in a hot tub. Try it, it works like a charm! Here is a link to my YouTube video about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0gTi7ieDUI&feature=channel_page

Good Luck!

[SmartScarecrow]

I use a sureflo 110v pump that moves about 200gph ... for the most part, the only thing I use it for is to quickly mix my electrolyte when I am tweaking the system ...

a pump will not produce more gas, nor will it increase efficiency ... in fact, it may reduce efficiency by bringing the level of fulid in your device up to a point where you get current leakage at your upper gas exit holes ...

however, using a pump will give you a lot more flexibility in where you mount your reservoir/bubbler ... to get good convection flow through your device, the reservoir/bubbler has to be just a little higher physically than the water level in the electrolyzer ... when you use a pump, you have a lot of flexibility how you mount your equipment and are not dependent on convection to move fluid/gas through it ...

a small diastolic pump would be best, followed by a diaphram pump that uses a nitrile diapharm then a centrifugal type pump ... ability to stand heat of about 200F max and exposure it electrolyte are key elements ... not all pumps will be able to take the extremes ... most will fail quickly ...

if you move fluid through your device too quickly, you will remove bubbles from your device before they have had a chance to get to size where they are bouyant ... these tiny little nano bubbles will tend to stay in solution, causing your fluid in the reservoir to expand ... ultrasonics will break them up and get them to settle down but the best thing to do is not move fluid through so fast that you cause this problem ...

[DodgeViper]

Just an idea as I do get foam. I had cleaned everything well before installing the system. I have changed my bubblers to a long neck tank..

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/40.jpg

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/41.jpg

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/P1010138.jpg

[DodgeViper]

Also I am think of placing a 3/8 PVC pipe with one end capped and the other end connected to my dip tube inside the bubblers laying flat on the bottom. The pvc pipe will have a series of holes say about 1/64th each with hundreds of holes in the tube. The idea is to create small gas bubbles. Yes the bubbles will form to be large gas bubbles but the idea is to create more bubbles to cleanse in vinegar. Am I off base?

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/Pipe.png

[SmartScarecrow]

Also I am think of placing a 3/8 PVC pipe with one end capped and the other end connected to my dip tube inside the bubblers laying flat on the bottom. The pvc pipe will have a series of holes say about 1/64th each with hundreds of holes in the tube. The idea is to create small gas bubbles. Yes the bubbles will form to be large gas bubbles but the idea is to create more bubbles to cleanse in vinegar. Am I off base?



most of the time, foaming, is caused by trying to push more amps at a device than it is capable of handling ... there is a current density that once reached, causes foaming ... it will vary from device to device ...

as a rule of thumb, you want about 4 square inches of surface area for every watt of energy you input to your device to keep it from running hot and/or producing foam ... I have seen some folks run them at much higher current densities than this, but 4 sq in per watt seems to always work ...

the other thing that will produce a lot of foam is plate spacing too close ... and of course contamination ... any oil residue, some adhesives, even some plastics can cause foaming ...

but current density is the leading cause ... with plate spacing too close running second ...

I do not think fiddling with your bubbler is going to solve it but you are the feet on the ground and may be seeing things I cant see that are leading you in that direction ... so I am not going to second guess you ...

by the way, very nice looking installation ... you do some pretty work ...

[DodgeViper]

by the way, very nice looking installation ... you do some pretty work ...

SmartScarecrow,

Thanks... I am a perfectionist and that comes from years of drag-boat racing and off-road racing. My brother and I spent years racing Score International and IHBA. I am a firm believer to do it right from the beginning, but it helps to have a shop full of equipment at my disposal as well.

[H2OPWR]

most of the time, foaming, is caused by trying to push more amps at a device than it is capable of handling ... there is a current density that once reached, causes foaming ... it will vary from device to device ...

as a rule of thumb, you want about 4 square inches of surface area for every watt of energy you input to your device to keep it from running hot and/or producing foam ... I have seen some folks run them at much higher current densities than this, but 4 sq in per watt seems to always work ...

the other thing that will produce a lot of foam is plate spacing too close ... and of course contamination ... any oil residue, some adhesives, even some plastics can cause foaming ...

but current density is the leading cause ... with plate spacing too close running second ...

I do not think fiddling with your bubbler is going to solve it but you are the feet on the ground and may be seeing things I cant see that are leading you in that direction ... so I am not going to second guess you ...

by the way, very nice looking installation ... you do some pretty work ...

SSC, Nice to see you back after a few days gone attending to more important matters.

Larry

[Painless]

Dodgeviper,

I was thinking of your facilities with envy yesterday, I want to mount my cell down under that front frame crossmember too, but just don't have what I need to do that. I'm having flow issues with my cell as high as it is right now.

I suppose if I keep chewing on it ill find a way!

Russ.

[DodgeViper]

Dodgeviper,

I was thinking of your facilities with envy yesterday, I want to mount my cell down under that front frame crossmember too, but just don't have what I need to do that. I'm having flow issues with my cell as high as it is right now.

I suppose if I keep chewing on it ill find a way!

Russ.

Painless,

We are very lucky to have the room we have behind the bumper. Where I placed the cell is without a doubt the best location. If I could I would build you the bracket but this would require me to remove my system. What I did was to measure the centers between the bolts that hold the bumper. I then decided in looking at the angle I wanted the side rails to follow so that the cross-member fell about dead center when you look down behind the bumper. Next I made exact duplicates for each side using 1/8” x 2” flat stock and drilled the side rails to fit the bumper bolts. The cross-member is 2” x 3”. Once the side plates were bolted in place I grab the bottom of each side plate pulled the side plates to the center of the truck slightly to clear the frame rails, then bent them back forming a S shape side rails. Next I measured across from side rail to side rail and cut my cross-member. With a bar clamp I clamped the cross-member in place, leveled the cross-member and welding the three components together.

[Painless]

Nice job too, wish I had welding facilities, that would open up some doors. Wonder if I could weld with my HHO torch?

[DodgeViper]

I am going to drain my entire system of distilled water/potassium hydroxide and pump vinegar through the entire system for a few hours. Then drain the vinegar and repeat this process one more time before pumping distilled water through the system.

I will then try once again before using pool de-foamer. If I have foam again then I have no choice but to use de-foamer. I have used this product in spas and it comes in contact with skin so it is harmless.