HHO LPM lower and upper rate limits

[locco]

Is there a rule of thumb that you guys/gals follow to figure out the minimum HHO LPM flow needed for a certain capacity engine to realise efficiency gains?

The only rule of thumb I've read (sorry lost link) is that you need to be using a cell that produces 1LPM for every Litre of engine displacement. So going by this rule, for the 1.6L engine that I will be shortly installing a HHO cell into, my cell only needs to produce 1.6LPM HHO.

For the upper limit, do you guys notice that no efficiency gain is possible once you go past producing a certain LPM HHO per engine displacement? This would be helpful as producing any more than this would only be putting a strain on your alternator.

If you quote your LPM rates can you please also quote your engine displacement so maybe we can see a pattern here? Cheers

[Painless]

The 1 LPM per litre of engine capacity is the only minimum guideline we have. Some are realising gains with much less, however, it is my personal belief that water vapour is the assistant here and not HHO.

Upper limits are an open question. It really depends on your engine, its ECU programming and the efficiency of your alternator.

[Gary Diamond]

The 1 LPM per litre of engine capacity is the only minimum guideline we have. Some are realising gains with much less, however, it is my personal belief that water vapour is the assistant here and not HHO.

Upper limits are an open question. It really depends on your engine, its ECU programming and the efficiency of your alternator.

Has anyone tried, only water vapour, NO HHO just to see if it buy anything??

[alpha-dog]

I've also read that you can have to much HHO. I don't believe that, but it has been reported.

[locco]

OK, so it seems people should start measuring their water vapour %. I guess the best way to quantify it is by weighing your cell initially. Then powering it up for a few hours. Then re-weighing it, while also weighing the water that condensated out of what you were outputing (point end of output tube onto inverted bowl covered over with ice, condensate will collect in bowl below).

So Water Vapour % = Condensation Weight/Total Weight Lost From Cell

Gary maybe start a new thread.

Now back onto the topic, lower/upper limits...

[locco]

Alpha there must be an upper limit. Majority of the combustion energy created in your cylinder is from the fuel. Bugger all is created by the HHO as it's a light gas, therefor having small energy density. By the time you pump enough HHO into the cylinder to power the engine with majority HHO you'd be getting close to creating a perpetual motion machine :) as you'd be using more energy creating the HHO then you'd be extracting from it through combustion.

Sorry for the extreme but I find that it always helps to understand the process. Anyway somewhere along the way lies a point where the cell is creating just enough HHO to give combustion advatages and at the same time uses the least amount of total energy available from the alternator. I guess this is the lower limit... The upper limit is the point where the alternator losses outweigh the gains created by HHO... Soz if I'm confusing anyone, am just thinking out loud :)

[alpha-dog]

Alpha there must be an upper limit. Majority of the combustion energy created in your cylinder is from the fuel. Bugger all is created by the HHO as it's a light gas, therefor having small energy density. By the time you pump enough HHO into the cylinder to power the engine with majority HHO you'd be getting close to creating a perpetual motion machine :) as you'd be using more energy creating the HHO then you'd be extracting from it through combustion.

Sorry for the extreme but I find that it always helps to understand the process. Anyway somewhere along the way lies a point where the cell is creating just enough HHO to give combustion advatages and at the same time uses the least amount of total energy available from the alternator. I guess this is the lower limit... The upper limit is the point where the alternator losses outweigh the gains created by HHO... Soz if I'm confusing anyone, am just thinking out loud :)

There may be a level of to much HHO, but we haven't been able to get enough with our current equipment

[Dave Nowlin]

Since we are using the HHO as a catalyst, there has to be a perfect amount. That is the amount where the best mileage is obtained. Why? There has to be an ideal burn rate for the primary fule to give the most energy for the particular engine. If you use too little the burn rate and efficiency of the burn won't be ideal. If you use too much, the burn rate will be too fast for the engine to use all of the energy even though the combustion will probably be complete. This is where I believe a PWM comes into play. I believe the output can over time be carefully calibrated to the engine. I believe different things can cause this to be true in different engines. Things such as length of stroke and compression ratio.

Dave Nowlin

[Painless]

I agree that thinking in terms of absolute minimums and ridiculous maximums is a good way of understanding things and determining answers, I too often involve this process.

Let's break this down:

1) HHO increases thermal efficiency by increasing the amount of gasoline that is burnt in the cylinder at a time which would allow it to contribute to the power stroke.

2) Ignoring the horsepower required to generate the HHO for the moment: there is a maximum amount of HHO where 100% of the gasoline will be combusted in order to contribute to the power stroke.

3) There is an amount of HHO creation that the horsepower utilised to generate it meets or exceeds the benefits in HP gained as part of 1.

4) Once point 2 has occured, the question becomes 'does the additional HHO that is not required to increase thermal efficiency contribute more HP in its own combustion than is used to create it'.

We know from the laws of physics that the answer to the question in point 4 is 'no'.

Therefore, we can see by this breakdown that the maximum limit will be different in each application, dependent upon alternator efficiency, cell efficiency and achievable thermal efficiency.

Russ.

[alpha-dog]

To much HHO is a mute point as far as I know. Maybe some people are making enough but others ( myself ) need to make more. I think 1 liter to 1 Lpm is a good rule of thumb until we can prove otherwise.

[H2OPWR]

To much HHO is a mute point as far as I know. Maybe some people are making enough but others ( myself ) need to make more. I think 1 liter to 1 Lpm is a good rule of thumb until we can prove otherwise.

I would agree totally with this point. Most electrical systems do not have the capacity to even get close to 1lpm per liter of engine size. The quest for higher effeciency must go on.

Larry

[locco]

Dave, good point about fuel burn rate and energy recovery, didn't even think of this... ahhh more variables :)

Looks like a pressure volume diagram is needed at different HHO flow rates...