Engine Efficiency Thinking...

[DrBrown]

I have not installed my cell on my truck yet. I dont expect my V8 to do much with my single cell making less than 1Lpm but the cell can always be improved upon. My questions are regarding the efficiency at which HHO can be burned in a combustion engine. I've heard many claims about hydrogen burning 3 to 10 times more efficient than gasoline. Is there any truth to this?

You read a lot of garbage about the laws of conservation of energy and how its impossible to create "free" energy by using another energy due to alternator drag etc etc...Im sure we've all been down that argument before. Obvioulsy people are getting positive results on certain engines. If we could prove that hho burns 5 times more efficient than gasoline it can put the debate to rest. If the motor can run on 1 liter of HHO longer and more efficient than 1 liter of gasoline you would get positive gains, but only if you are able to reduce the amount of fuel pumped in by a small percentage. None of us are at the point of running a car from 100% hydrogen (it would destroy the heads and pistons anyway) but if we can at least reduce total petrol used by 5-10% on millions of cars we can say we're making a difference. Anyway, just food for thought. Anyone care to expand my knowledge?? :D

[mytoyotasucks]

I dont know who wrote this, but explains good. -

If you were to take the energy in the electricity used to generate HHO and the energy stored in the created HHO, the electricity will always be higher.

However, we are not supplementing gasoline with an additional fuel, we are using a catalyst to IMPROVE the thermal efficiency of the gasoline.

In simpler terms:

The average internal combustion engine, on a good day, will burn about 18% of the gasoline that is injected into the cylinders in order to contribute to pushing down the piston.

When we add enough HHO to the mixture, the gasoline burns at a faster rate and therefore more of the gasoline is burnt in order to contribute to pushing down the piston.

We are not adding a fuel to add extra power in it's own right, we are using a catalyst to make more efficient use of the gasoline fuel.

[DrBrown]

To go one step further, by leaning or reducing the amount of fuel we pump into the engine the engine will run too lean causing knocks and pinging. This is due to the set ignition timing being advanced too much for a higher A/F ratio. Just leaning will cause long term damage. I always looked at HHO as a way to allow the engine to run at a higher AFR (15.5-18:1) w/out getting the knocking or causing preignition. I think there's more room for gains by that method versus just hoping it acts as a catalyst for the gasoline because its takes too much energy to overcome what you save.

[chris1200]

If you were to take the energy in the electricity used to generate HHO and the energy stored in the created HHO, the electricity will always be higher.

I disagree,

Many people see it that way because there are other methods of using Hydrogen. The hydrolysis reaction can be reverted to produce electricity (some electric cars do this). So the electrical energy used for electrolysis will be higher than the electric potential you have stored to produce electricity, due to the fact that there is some energy loss during HHO production from our not %100 efficient alternators and engines.

But we are not reverting this reaction, instead we are burning the Hydrogen Molecules to release the much higher stored energy.

[DrBrown]

But we are not reverting this reaction, instead we are burning the Hydrogen Molecules to release the much higher stored energy.

Is HHO truly a more powerful and more efficient potential energy though? That was my question originally. If it is then obviously that answers the big question! So I guess it comes down to how efficient it burns in combination with gasoline as well as how efficient the cell is per watt pumped into the system creating HHO.

[BoyntonStu]

Is HHO truly a more powerful and more efficient potential energy though? That was my question originally. If it is then obviously that answers the big question! So I guess it comes down to how efficient it burns in combination with gasoline as well as how efficient the cell is per watt pumped into the system creating HHO.


Measuring heating values

The higher heating value is experimentally determined in a bomb calorimeter by concealing a stoichiometric mixture of fuel and oxidizer (e.g., two moles of hydrogen and one mole of oxygen) in a steel container at 25 °C. Then the exothermic reaction is initiated by an ignition device and the combustion reactions completed. When hydrogen and oxygen react during combustion, water vapor emerges. Subsequently, the vessel and its content are cooled down to the original 25 °C and the higher heating value is determined as the heat released between identical initial and final temperatures.

When the lower heating value (LHV) is determined, cooling is stopped at 150 °C and the reaction heat is only partially recovered. The limit of 150 °C is an arbitrary choice.

Relation to lower heating value

The difference between the two heating values depends on the chemical composition of the fuel. In the case of pure carbon or carbon dioxide, both heating values are almost identical, the difference being the sensible heat content of carbon dioxide between 150°C and 25°C (sensible heat exchange causes a change of temperature. In contrast, latent heat is added or subtracted for phase changes at constant temperature. Examples: heat of vaporization or heat of fusion). For hydrogen the difference is much more significant as it includes the sensible heat of water vapor between 150°C and 100°C, the latent heat of condensation at 100°C and the sensible heat of the condensed water between 100°C and 25°C. All in all, the higher heating value of hydrogen is 18.2% above its lower heating value (142 MJ/kg vs. 120 MJ/kg). For hydrocarbons the difference depends on the hydrogen content of the fuel. For gasoline and diesel the higher heating value exceeds the lower heating value by about 10% and 7%, respectively, for natural gas about 11%.

Higher (HHV) and lower (LHV) heating values for some fuels are shown in the following table.

Table A. Heating values for selected fuels[1]

Fuel HHV(MJ/kg) LHV(MJ/kg) HHV/LHV LHV/HHV
Coal 1) 34.1 33.3 1.024 0.977
CO 10.9 10.9 1.000 1.000
Methane 55.5 50.1 1.108 0.903
Natural gas 2) 42.5 38.1 1.115 0.896
Propane 48.9 45.8 1.068 0.937
Gasoline 3) 46.7 42.5 1.099 0.910
Diesel 3) 45.9 43.0 1.067 0.937
Hydrogen 141.9 120.1 1.182 0.846

1 kg = 2.2 pounds

Where can you get 2.2 pounds of hydrogen?

A gallon of gasoline that we buy at a filling station weighs about 6 pounds.

Comparing Hydrogen to gasoline is just silly, UNLESS you first compress the Hydrogen to 8,000 PSI.

BoyntonStu

[chris1200]

1- You are wrong
2- I'm a skeptical (frustration)
3- You should be one too
4- Bla, Bla, Bla... with some artificial science and sensasionalism (sounds beautiful and convincing though)
5- Who told you? Where are the facts? etc.

BoyntonStu

Are you some kind of Science Fiction Author?

All your posts have the same five elements mentioned above.

You always bring up some irrelevant "facts" to try to convince others HHO does not work to increase MPG.

If it didn't worked for you, let others try it. I did and have positive results...

[chris1200]

:D People, Do Some Testing, don't be discouraged

[bigjim56]

Don't take offense, it's just Stu being Stu.

I'm continuing to drudge ahead myself on my first dry cell build. Close...oh so close!

bigjim56

[DrBrown]

I stopped listening to scientists a long time ago. All that giant blob of supposed science posted above really didn't answer my questions so I'm not sure why it was posted. The point still stands, will hydrogen burn more efficient than gasoline. Does it take more hydrogen than gasoline to create the same amount of work/energy? I am not a physicist so I dont know the chemical properties on how fuels burn but I will say that I KNOW FOR A FACT it does not require more work by the engine to pump out the extra 15-20 amps to create the hydrogen. I will know how it works soon enough by my own experiments! :)

[alpha-dog]

I stopped listening to scientists a long time ago. All that giant blob of supposed science posted above really didn't answer my questions so I'm not sure why it was posted. The point still stands, will hydrogen burn more efficient than gasoline. Does it take more hydrogen than gasoline to create the same amount of work/energy? I am not a physicist so I dont know the chemical properties on how fuels burn but I will say that I KNOW FOR A FACT it does not require more work by the engine to pump out the extra 15-20 amps to create the hydrogen. I will know how it works soon enough by my own experiments! :)

www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm01r0.pdf

This document says hydrogen has 61,000 Btu/lb and gasoline has 20,360 Btu/lb.
Hope that helps.

[DrBrown]

Well that actually does help. It proves that hydrogen can burn and create 3 times as much usable potential energy. Obviously if we are only supplementing 5% of our combustable fuel mix as H2 it's going to take some serious leaning from the ECU and a lot more H2 to allow the engine to run at stoich w/ stock ignition timing, otherwise its knock central.

[mytoyotasucks]

Well for my own, my caddy with 1.5 LPM gained 20 to 40% in mileage (more warmer weather). But my nephews car - Audi, only gets 5% better mileage, and its a smaller motor.

I need to find room in my saturn for my dry cell, but will be recording the sensor data before I install it and after.

I bought a USB code reader that can see real time sensor data, will be hooked to my laptop.

[BoyntonStu]

www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm01r0.pdf

This document says hydrogen has 61,000 Btu/lb and gasoline has 20,360 Btu/lb.
Hope that helps.

Gas weighs 6 about pounds a gallon and I know where to buy it.

Where do I get a pound of Hydrogen?

The Devil is in the details.

BoyntonStu

[chris1200]

Where do I get a pound of Hydrogen?

The Devil is in the details.

BoyntonStu

In just a couple of minutes of the amoeba cell
or any other electrolyzer...

[chris1200]

And what you need is a gallon, not a pound.

Yes details are important

[BoyntonStu]

And what you need is a gallon, not a pound.

Yes details are important

I'm sorry, but you left out the details.

Need a gallon? Of what?

"
This document says hydrogen has 61,000 Btu/lb and gasoline has 20,360 Btu/lb."

No gallons are mentioned.

BoyntonStu

[Dave Nowlin]

The problem in these discussions is apples and oranges. If you say a gallon of hydrogen that isn't meaningful until you tell at what pressure the hydrogen is. We are comparing gasoline in a liquid state but it must be vaporized and turned into a gas to burn it. It would be better to compare a given quantity of gasoline vapor to the same quantity of hydrogen with both gases at the same pressure.

Dave Nowlin

[BoyntonStu]

The problem in these discussions is apples and oranges. If you say a gallon of hydrogen that isn't meaningful until you tell at what pressure the hydrogen is. We are comparing gasoline in a liquid state but it must be vaporized and turned into a gas to burn it. It would be better to compare a given quantity of gasoline vapor to the same quantity of hydrogen with both gases at the same pressure.

Dave Nowlin

I disagree.

A pound is a pound.

Take a pound of gasoline, liquid or vapor and it has 20,360 Btu.

Take a pound of Hydrogen, liquid or vapor and it has 61,000 Btu.

Only vapor burns!

A pound of wood has X BTU.

When it burns, only its heated vapor burns, producing X BTU.

BoyntonStu

[Johnh]

The problem is talking in pounds and gallons in the same sentence.
If talking volume then the pressure and temperature must be specified.
Talk weight with energy and we don't have to worry about what form the fuel is in except for some energy input to change from liquid to gas - but we normally just grab this from the environment or waste heat from the cooling circuit and don't include it into our calculations.
John

[BoyntonStu]

The problem is talking in pounds and gallons in the same sentence.
If talking volume then the pressure and temperature must be specified.
Talk weight with energy and we don't have to worry about what form the fuel is in except for some energy input to change from liquid to gas - but we normally just grab this from the environment or waste heat from the cooling circuit and don't include it into our calculations.
John


If talking volume then the pressure and temperature must be specified. Yes.

This is how the comparison began:

"This document says hydrogen has 61,000 Btu/lb and gasoline has 20,360 Btu/lb" lb vs lb

Gasoline weighs 6 pounds per gallon.

We know where to obtain 2 pounds of gasoline.

How do we obtain 2 pounds of Hydrogen?

BoyntonStu