Dry Cell Design

[runtolive]

I am working in a group with three other high school kids to compete in an engineering competition that asks the question "How will you power your future?" We decided to take the HHO route without much knowledge of what was required and how it works. This link is to a dry cell design i made in solidworks and I was hoping to get some tips on the setup as well as answers to a few questions.

What is the ideal plate configuration for twenty one 304ss 6x6 plates?

What is the ideal current and voltage to run through this cell?

What is the best way to go from a battery to the dry cell unit to get the power you need for HHO production?

We would really appreciate any tips or information you may have. Thank you

http://picasaweb.google.com/runtolive

[H2OPWR]

For your best production I would use only 19 of your plates arrainged like this
+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-. You will have more real HHO gas. Your cell design that you have posted may look like it is producing better but much of what you will get will be steam and not nearly as explosive. If you do as I suggest I would experiment with KOH and Distilled water until I had between 20 and 25 amps at 12 volts. That should be the sweat spot for that cell. Also for demonstration purposes heat your electrolite up to about 120 degrees F before filling the cell. Your production will be much higher than with cool water. If you are going to ignite the gas as part of your demonstration make sure that you run a hose down into a container of water and let the HHO bubbles float to the top. Then ignite the bubbles as they break the surface. That way you will not blow up the device in class spraying wvwryone with a very caustic solution and possibly injuring someone or worse. This stuff is extremely dangerous. If you really want a loud explosion for your show make sure that you fill whatever you are going to use as a bubbler with very cold water and ice cubes. The cold gas is very powerful. ABOVE ALL BE VERY CAREFUL. THIS STUFF IS VERY EXPLOSIVE.

Hope this helps.

Larry


I am working in a group with three other high school kids to compete in an engineering competition that asks the question "How will you power your future?" We decided to take the HHO route without much knowledge of what was required and how it works. This link is to a dry cell design i made in solidworks and I was hoping to get some tips on the setup as well as answers to a few questions.

What is the ideal plate configuration for twenty one 304ss 6x6 plates?

What is the ideal current and voltage to run through this cell?

What is the best way to go from a battery to the dry cell unit to get the power you need for HHO production?

We would really appreciate any tips or information you may have. Thank you

http://s617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/runtolive1/?action=view&current=DryCell.flv

[runtolive]

Thank you very much H20PWR,

For demonstration purposes we were planning on using a lawn mower engine that would ideally run on just HHO without supplementing any gas. Does this have a possibility of working or should we approach this differently? We are also in need of a good bubbler design. Will it be necessary for us to use a PWM to manage the current or is there another setup that would accomplish the same thing? In my preliminary design i used a bolt connection to the charged plates. Are there advantages to using this setup over individual connections to each plate? Do you lose some energy by running electricity through the bolts before it gets to the cell? I realize that a lot of this information is out on the web different places but it is nice to get straight answers and suggestions from people that have been trying this instead of people trying to sell a product. Thanks

[H2OPWR]

Thank you very much H20PWR,

For demonstration purposes we were planning on using a lawn mower engine that would ideally run on just HHO without supplementing any gas. Does this have a possibility of working or should we approach this differently? We are also in need of a good bubbler design. Will it be necessary for us to use a PWM to manage the current or is there another setup that would accomplish the same thing? In my preliminary design i used a bolt connection to the charged plates. Are there advantages to using this setup over individual connections to each plate? Do you lose some energy by running electricity through the bolts before it gets to the cell? I realize that a lot of this information is out on the web different places but it is nice to get straight answers and suggestions from people that have been trying this instead of people trying to sell a product. Thanks

You can make a lawnmower engine run but your 21 plates will not produce anywhere enough HHO to even get it to idle. You will need 6lpm to make that happen and I would guess that the best you could hope for with the number of plates you are working with is 2lpm. For demonstration purposes forget the PWM. It will just additional cost for a high scool project. If your bolts are brass you should be OK.

[runtolive]

You can make a lawnmower engine run but your 21 plates will not produce anywhere enough HHO to even get it to idle. You will need 6lpm to make that happen and I would guess that the best you could hope for with the number of plates you are working with is 2lpm.

If we integrated two 19 plate dry cells could we get close to getting the lawnmower to idle? I know that the math says you would only get 4 lpm but i was wondering if having two would change that at all.



For demonstration purposes forget the PWM. It will just additional cost for a high scool project. If your bolts are brass you should be OK.

In this case should we just run 10 gauge to the dry cell from the battery?



I finished some renderings on a different setup last night that was only using a 19 plate design. I think this works out better than the last setup.


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[H2OPWR]

If you are anywhere near as good at building your cell as your pic's look I am sure that it will turn out great. The one issue I still have is that no matter the set up from my experience getting even 4lpm from a 19 plate stack is going to be tough. If you can get it to idle at 4lpm the gas had better be very cool. Look up SmartScarecrow's channel on YouTube and see what he went through to get a small engine to run on HHO then make a judgement for yourself. I admire your goal and hope you get it done. Yes just run 8 or 10 guage wire to the cell. You will make more HHO that way. I prefer 8 guage.

Larry


If we integrated two 19 plate dry cells could we get close to getting the lawnmower to idle? I know that the math says you would only get 4 lpm but i was wondering if having two would change that at all.




In this case should we just run 10 gauge to the dry cell from the battery?



I finished some renderings on a different setup last night that was only using a 19 plate design. I think this works out better than the last setup.

<a href="http://s617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/runtolive1/Dry%20Cell%20Preliminary/Dry%20Cell%20Two/?action=view&current=render2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/runtolive1/Dry%20Cell%20Preliminary/Dry%20Cell%20Two/render2.jpg" border="0" alt="Dry Cell Side Render"></a>


http://s617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/runtolive1/Dry%20Cell%20Preliminary/Dry%20Cell%20Two/

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[runtolive]

Yes just run 8 or 10 guage wire to the cell. You will make more HHO that way. I prefer 8 guage.

Thanks for that advice on the electrical. What would you recommend for the hook up to the plates, with a bolt design or with individual connectors?

[H2OPWR]

Thanks for that advice on the electrical. What would you recommend for the hook up to the plates, with a bolt design or with individual connectors?

I always use the bolt design with Brass allthread. Some prefer the individual connections. I guess it is just a matter of personal preferance. I like less wires so I use the bolts.

Larry

[Gary Diamond]

If we integrated two 19 plate dry cells could we get close to getting the lawnmower to idle? I know that the math says you would only get 4 lpm but i was wondering if having two would change that at all.




In this case should we just run 10 gauge to the dry cell from the battery?



I finished some renderings on a different setup last night that was only using a 19 plate design. I think this works out better than the last setup.

<a href="http://s617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/runtolive1/Dry%20Cell%20Preliminary/Dry%20Cell%20Two/?action=view&current=render2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/runtolive1/Dry%20Cell%20Preliminary/Dry%20Cell%20Two/render2.jpg" border="0" alt="Dry Cell Side Render"></a>


http://s617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/runtolive1/Dry%20Cell%20Preliminary/Dry%20Cell%20Two/

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Very nice drawings. What cad program did you use?

[runtolive]

Thank you. I use solidworks with the photoworks rendering program. I've just started experimenting with it. Here's a few more that i have done.

[runtolive]

Would adding air to the HHO instead of combusting just HHO work? We were wondering because regular gasoline IC engines mix gasoline with air at a 1:14 ratio. Will this work or are we mixing concepts?

[H2OPWR]

Would adding air to the HHO instead of combusting just HHO work? We were wondering because regular gasoline IC engines mix gasoline with air at a 1:14 ratio. Will this work or are we mixing concepts?

No one combusts just HHO. It is always added to the intake air stream. Even runnung an engine on just HHO would still involve adding it to the intake air. I hate to think of what would happen inside the combustion chamber if it contained only HHO but I would not want to be anywhere close to that test.

Larry

[runtolive]

Ok thank you VERY much for that advice and for keeping us in one piece! In that case what air to HHO ratio is ideal? Would adding more air reduce the amount of HHO needed per cycle in the engine?

[H2OPWR]

Ok thank you VERY much for that advice and for keeping us in one piece! In that case what air to HHO ratio is ideal? Would adding more air reduce the amount of HHO needed per cycle in the engine?

No, The engine is going to intake whatever air it needs. Your goal will be to keep feeding it more and more HHO until it will actually run. Other than actually producing enough HHO to make the engine idle here will be your largest challenge.

Small lawn mower type of engines do not have a distributor to supply spark to the engine. A distributor supplies a spark only when you need one and has the ability to adjust the timing to make the spark when you want it. Most small engines have a magneto to make the spark. It is in a fixed non adjustable position next to the flywheel. There is a magnet imbedded in the flywheel. Each time that the magnet passes the magneto there is an electrical pulse created that provides spark to ignite the fuel as well as one waste spark that goes off at the end of the exhaust stroke. The problem you will face is that with the explosive nature of HHO the waste spark can be a problem. It sparks just barely before the intake valve opens. Under normal operation with gasoline this is not an issue because gasoline is much harder to ignite than HHO. With HHO what can and will happen from time to time is that waste spark can ignite the first of the HHO gas as it is entering the combustion chamber through an open intake valve. The explosion than travels backward through the intake blowing everything up. THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS PROCESS. Especially if you are not providing enough HHO to make the engine run. What will happen is that the load of HHO that was in the combustion chamber and not ignited will still be there on the exhaust stroke. The waste spark can and will eventually ignite that unburned load of HHO and air just as the intake opens again. What you are attempting to do is very difficult to make happen and can be dangerous. It seems that you are determined to give this a go. Just use extreme caution. IT IS DANGEROUS. I have much experience with HHO as well as internal combustion engines. I also have a device that makes enough HHO to run a small engine and I will not try it. That nasty little waste spark needs to be done away with.

Larry

[runtolive]

Ok. Is there any way to get rid of the waste spark? If this isn't possible is using a flash or explosion valve of some sorts to release the extra pressure before the intake valve if the waste spark decides to be a nuisance and blow up through the intake the best way to control this? We haven't done too much with actual HHO gas so we are kind of blind to it's energy however we do realize that we are meddling with powers that are too much to handle. What type of design have you used to create enough HHO to run your system? Are there any new concepts that could potentially be more efficient than a dry cell for producing HHO that no one has been able to master yet? At this point in time we are interested in any ideas we can get. We understand that we know relatively nothing about this field but we are interested in helping out as much as we can in this field,not just for our benefit.

Thanks

[H2OPWR]

Ok. Is there any way to get rid of the waste spark? If this isn't possible is using a flash or explosion valve of some sorts to release the extra pressure before the intake valve if the waste spark decides to be a nuisance and blow up through the intake the best way to control this? We haven't done too much with actual HHO gas so we are kind of blind to it's energy however we do realize that we are meddling with powers that are too much to handle. What type of design have you used to create enough HHO to run your system? Are there any new concepts that could potentially be more efficient than a dry cell for producing HHO that no one has been able to master yet? At this point in time we are interested in any ideas we can get. We understand that we know relatively nothing about this field but we are interested in helping out as much as we can in this field,not just for our benefit.

Thanks

I have no knowledge as to how you would construct it but I am sure that someone with even a decent knowledge of electronics could easily make an electronoc mod that would store the waste spark in a capacitor and then discharge both at the same time. Maybe even retard the timing to the correct point for running on pure HHO. That should be easy for the right person. As for containing the backfire. I would not suggest that. I would go to the electronics class and fins someone to help eliminate it and then retard the timing to TDC while I was at it. Getting a more effecient design is going to be a little harder. I am currently investigating a nono particle coating that is supposed to help but to make a device capable of doing what you want to do would cost thousands with this new technology and then you would have to perfect an enclosure. I am afraid that would be a bit much for someone new and probably is a bit much for me but I am going to give it a go anyway. As for now I am afraid that the dry cell is your best choice. Sorry that I can not give you an easy answer. There is simply not one. If you pull this off you will join only a small handful of people who have done it. Good Luck.

Larry

[SmartScarecrow]

Ok. Is there any way to get rid of the waste spark? If this isn't possible is using a flash or explosion valve of some sorts to release the extra pressure before the intake valve if the waste spark decides to be a nuisance and blow up through the intake the best way to control this? We haven't done too much with actual HHO gas so we are kind of blind to it's energy however we do realize that we are meddling with powers that are too much to handle. What type of design have you used to create enough HHO to run your system? Are there any new concepts that could potentially be more efficient than a dry cell for producing HHO that no one has been able to master yet? At this point in time we are interested in any ideas we can get. We understand that we know relatively nothing about this field but we are interested in helping out as much as we can in this field,not just for our benefit.

Thanks



you can start with my YouTube play list at http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=87C8A8DA063B009A ...


to answer a few of your questions right off the bat ...

for every 100cc of engine capacity, you will need to feed about 6-9 lpm of HHO to get the engine to run ... you will need a fairly substantial electrolysis device to pull it off ... I used 65 plates in an 8'x8" form factor and powered the device with 120vAC rectified at about 15 amps ...

normally, you will not have to make adjustments to timing or worry with waste spark just to get it to run ... as you make progress, you should consider methods of dealing with these issues to get it to run well ... but you can make it run without any modifications at all if you want to do it ...

with a standard 8:1 compression ratio small engine, you will want an air:HHO ratio of about 5:1 ... as you raise compression, a leaner concentration of HHO is practical ...

[runtolive]

Nasty little waste spark. We found this website that explains the issue of the waste spark. The issue, from what we understand, is that the nature of HHO is that it explodes almost instantaneously unlike gasoline which is slower to ignite as H2OPWR said. This website suggests changing the timing of the spark either by mechanically adjusting the position of the magnet or by using a time delaying circuit (eg NE555 monostable driving a FET). Our new set of questions is set around this. Has anyone been able to mechanically adjust the flywheel on a lawnmower engine in order to change the timing so the spark is hit as the cylinder passes TDC? Does anyone know how to build this time delaying circuit to delay the spark enough so the cylinder passes TDC? or does anyone know of a good place to get one of these circuits?

http://www.hydrogensolutionstoday.com/wastespark

Thank you

[H2OPWR]

The circut is beyond me. But changing the flywheel position will require some fancy machining. First you will need to determine exactly where you want it. I would suggest exactly top dead center. Then you will have to figure where that place is on the flywheel. A good machine shop will then have to cut you a new slot for the key that actually holds it in place. Then just put it back together. That would be the right way to do it. Another way for a short run would to find a good two part adhesive like adheasive like JB weld and then find your desired position. Remove the key alltogether the coat the shaft where the flywheel will be placed with the JB weld. Carefully put everything back together and tighten down the nut that holds the flywheel on. Make sure that everything is where you want it first. There will be no second chances here. Once this has been done the engine will be useless for anything else. Then enjoy your test. Good Luck.

Larry


Nasty little waste spark. We found this website that explains the issue of the waste spark. The issue, from what we understand, is that the nature of HHO is that it explodes almost instantaneously unlike gasoline which is slower to ignite as H2OPWR said. This website suggests changing the timing of the spark either by mechanically adjusting the position of the magnet or by using a time delaying circuit (eg NE555 monostable driving a FET). Our new set of questions is set around this. Has anyone been able to mechanically adjust the flywheel on a lawnmower engine in order to change the timing so the spark is hit as the cylinder passes TDC? Does anyone know how to build this time delaying circuit to delay the spark enough so the cylinder passes TDC? or does anyone know of a good place to get one of these circuits?

http://www.hydrogensolutionstoday.com/wastespark

Thank you

[Johnh]

Another option is to do away with the magneto ignition and just put a car coil on it with a set of points driven from the camshaft. It means of course that you need a battery to power the coil but especially on overhead camshaft engines it is a relatively easy job. especially if you are more into mechanics than electronics. Just need to install a guide into the cam cover with a push rod riding on the cam or a cam follower to operate the points externally.
It is certainly a challenge to provide enough HHO from electrolysis to run even a small engine. straight hydrogen from an aluminium/caustic reaction or similar may be an easier option. and very cheap compared to the electrolysis route. And fairly cheap fuel with the current state of the recycling industry.
John

[SmartScarecrow]

Another option is to do away with the magneto ignition and just put a car coil on it with a set of points driven from the camshaft. It means of course that you need a battery to power the coil but especially on overhead camshaft engines it is a relatively easy job. especially if you are more into mechanics than electronics. Just need to install a guide into the cam cover with a push rod riding on the cam or a cam follower to operate the points externally.
It is certainly a challenge to provide enough HHO from electrolysis to run even a small engine. straight hydrogen from an aluminium/caustic reaction or similar may be an easier option. and very cheap compared to the electrolysis route. And fairly cheap fuel with the current state of the recycling industry.
John

there are some problems with the aluminum/caustic reaction ... its very hard to control the reaction ... its easy for it to get away from you ... there is one example of a working device that used this technique ... its called the "Cornish Device" ... my understanding is that it was used successfully to power an automobile ... so its not like its impossible to do, but it is tricky ...

I agree that producing enough HHO to power even a small engine takes a lot of electrolyzer ... to run a 100cc engine at normal RPM's required between 6 and 9 lpm of HHO ... to produce this much HHO required input energy of between 1200 and 1800 watts ... its not a trivial task but it can be done ...

the waste spark and timing issues are very real and to get a small engine to run well on HHO will need to be addressed ... but you can get a small engine to run a lot better than you might imagine without making these modifications ...

it is best to do away with the standard magneto ignition and use some form of reed switch or perhaps a hall effect transistor to sense the position of the cam ... use the output from this sensor to trigger a relay that will fire off a standard automotive type ignition coil ... if you get your sensor mounted properly, you should be able to adjust its position to give you a wide range of timing settings ... you might be surprised at how far after top dead center you need to trigger your spark ... so give yourself as much adjustment as you can ...

this is the most effective way to go about it ... obviously the specifics will vary from engine to engine and getting this done will require a bit of tinkering ... Google is your friend ... the last time I did one of these I found a diagram of an ignition circuit that way ... the circuit was not hard to build and was made of parts I grabbed at Radio Shack and Pep Boys ...