My Dry Cell Project [Archive]

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:51 AM

UPDATE: Someone has ask me to restore all the images as the host site was no longer hosting the images...

The cell is made up of 36 - 316L stainless steel plates measuring 8"x8" with neoprene gaskets between each plate. This is a 7 cell design. I will be using a custom 80 amp PWM and a DEIFE to control my O2 sensor. Also the system will be wired through a oil pressure switch, doing so makes the entire system safer to operate due to the engine needed to be running for the cell to operate.The cell block is configured as follows, -nnnn+nnnn-nnnn+nnnn-nnnn+nnnn-nnnn+

You will see in the drawing I am using two bubblers with Vinegar in the last bubbler to clean the HHO gas before entering the intake.

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:52 AM

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:52 AM

As you can see everything will be neatly behind the front bumper with the last bubbler inside the hood mounted on the firewall. The final bubbler will have a sarran wrap blow plug as well. The final assembly will be made once I have the entire bracket made and it has been powered coated. I have yet to decide where the PWM will mount but it needs to be under the hood and so that I can make adjustments to the pots.

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:53 AM

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:53 AM

Here are photos of the cell mounted. I took a piece of ¾” PCV flat stock, cut it to the width of the inside of the end plates. Next I machined out a 3” wide grove and ½” deep so the cell rest over the cross member I built and installed. Next I bought a product called “Make Your Own Hose Clamp. This material comes in lengths up to 50’ if needed. Using the stainless steel hose clamps I clamp the cell to the cross member. It’s a very ridged mount and the cell will not move.

Thought I would share a photo I received from the maker of my cell. This is how you remove all finger prints, dust, etc. before building the cell. Also take not that the plates are NOT sanded as some are doing to their cell plates. There is no solid proof that I have read that says sanding the plates helps HHO production... I think what’s going on is there is a lot of BACK YARD mechanic work going on and being reported with no proof to back it up…

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:54 AM

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:54 AM

Now I understand why neoprene is used for gaskets to seal these cells that have a number of plates. When washed and cleaned of the powder that is placed on the neoprene gaskets the neprene is very sticky. Furthermore I understand why nylon all-thread is used, it takes very little pressure to seal the cell. In fact once the plates are stacked on top and with the neoprene gaskets in between each plate it is nearly impossible to pull the plates apart even without the nuts on either side.

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:55 AM

Photos of the finished soldering of the terminals and wiring. I used THHN #10 wire as it has a tough insulation and fits my needs.

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:55 AM

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:56 AM

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:57 AM

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:57 AM

I have begun to construct my flow meter. A friend of mine who own Plastic Plus in Tucson, Arizona has provided me the material to build my flow meter. The base is 6” x 6” and 1” inch thick. The larger tube is 3.5 inches inside measurement and the smaller tube is 1” outside measurement.

I found a 1 litter plastic water bottle that 3” in diameter and about 12” tall. I have drilled a series of holes in the bottom. The plan is to machine a pair of groves into the 1” block, the larger grove will be 3.75” while the smaller grove will be 1.0”. Next I will drill and tap a ¼” NPT thread directly in the center of the 6” x 6” block. This will support a 90 degree fitting so that I can connect my cell block. Next I will glue the smaller 1” tube to the base followed by the larger tube being glued to the base. Then I will place rubber feet on the bottom of the block to raise the block to clear the 90 degree elbow. I had thought of machining a hole in the side of the block to the center hole and tapping the block to support a fitting, I still may do this if time permits.

Once completed I will fill the larger tube full of distilled water. Removing the cap from the 1 litter bottle I will slide the 1 litter bottle down into the larger tube allowing the 1 litter bottle to completely submerge until the bottle neck comes into contact with the smaller 1” tube. Next I will place the cap back onto the 1 litter bottle tightly. The series of holes I drilled in the bottom of the 1 liter bottle will allow the bottle to rise and at the same time allow the water to exit as HHO gas displaces the water.

Now the flow meter is ready to be used. This will make a very efficient flow meter much better than submerging a bottle in a bucket. The plan is once I see movement is when I will start the stop watch. Once the 1 litter bottle has displaced all water from the bottle is when the stop watch is stopped. The given time on the stop watch will tell me how quickly I produced a litter of HHO gas.

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:59 AM

Well testing has begun. I made HHO gas today and here are a few videos of my results. I also tried my torch and it worked great. I could not see the flame but the torch worked and burnt the cardboard. I will do a video later tonight so that the readers can see the torch in action. The first video is production of HHO at 2lpm and the second video is production of HHO at 3lpm. Water temps in the reservoir at the bottom of the tank was 87 degrees while at the top I recorded 96 degrees. The cell felt warm as well.

In both test I had not made any adjustments to my PWM. I hope to make more HHO at lower amps.

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Here is a reply from the builder of my PWM,

If you made gas at those 2 different currents, and you have not adjusted the CCPWM, I have to wonder where it is set at. You must 1st set the amps the cell will draw without the CCPWM, on 12Vdc, engine running & cold. Adjust electrolyte to the desired current.

Then connect the CCPWM and adjust it for the current you set the cell at with the electrolyte. Use a DC amps clamp meter at minimum. If you 40 amps on your cell, cold, w/out CCPWM, then you need to set the CCPWM to draw that 40 amps when connected. If the CCPWM is trying to regulate 40 amps and the cell is trying to draw say 60 amps, the CCPWM will do it for a while. The extra 20 amps in this example would have to go somewhere, and that is heat. If such condition exist, the CCPWM will burn up.

If the CCPWM is set at 40 amps and the cell draws 30 amps to start out, then the CCPWM will work fine and when the cell heats up to the 40 amps, the CCPWM will limit it to that 40 amps. But, in this situation, the cell would be likely to be overheating. It is important to match the cell draw closely to what the CCPWM is set for.

Ideally, if the cell is set to draw say 42 to 45 amps & the CCPWM is set at 40 amps, all is good for the balance of the 2. If the CCPWM is controlling the cell at 40 amps and the cell is no more than 45 amps, the CCPWM will keep it at 40 amps and the extra won't be very much over loading that would become wasted heat energy.

So the balance is important. If you have not adjusted the % Duty Cycle nor the Freq. yet, don't. Those can be played with later when you have equipment to measure frequency &/or see the signal on a scope. The pre set % Duty Cycle is at about 95% & the freq. is at 2.5KHz when I ship them out. You only need to get the current as close as you can to match the cell.

Hope this helps. Going to watch your videos now. Those are some very good numbers at those currents. If we spot anything in the video we will ask you about them.

Take care:
Rick Lawrence

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 09:59 AM

Here is my take on making a torch head. I used a 1/4" ball valve that is male NPT on one end and female NPT on the other end. The male end had the correct size center hole for a 1/4 x 20 tap. I tapped the hole of which a Hobart Mig Welding tips will screw into the male end of the ball valve. I believe this is a common thread size to mig welding tips so any brand will work.

Next I screwed the mig welding tip into the ball valve as tight as could and chucked up the tip in a drill. Using a file I removed the threads and tapped the brass on the male end of the ball valve.

I used a 6” x 1/4” brass pipe and Teflon tape both, next I threaded the pipe into the ball valve followed by a piece of neoprene hose for the handle, then bronze wool was placed inside of the pipe followed by the 3/8” hose barb on the other end.

Mig Welding Tips are available from in many sizes. I currently have .023 and .035 tip sizes on hand. The shut-off valve will allow you to control the flow of gas as well. Pictured with the .023 tip

I can see how pressure would build inside the bubbler and cell block due to the small size tip… In my HHO design I have a thin piece of Saran Wrap as a pop-off on the fill caps of the bubblers.

As you can see this makes a very clean, simple torch for those that want to play.

Here is a quality HHO torch for your HHO projects Includes .035 screw in tip, this giving the user complete control of what size tip to use for the amount of litters of HHO gas being produced. Have complete control of the flame with the ball valve at your finger tips. Made of entirely of brass with the exception of the copper tip. The neoprene handle is 6 inches long with overall torch length of 10 inches. 3/8 barb hose fitting.

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DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 10:00 AM

Well my bubbler did not last long… During my third demonstration of the torch to my neighbor I had a HUGE explosion. The first two demonstrations I had submerged the torch tip in a glass of water to shut the torch off as I was afraid to turn it off at the shut-off valve. But between the second and third demonstration I had lowered the electrolytes in the bubbler due to the foam, what I did not realized while lowering the level I was also increasing the amount of HHO gas in the bubbler. On the third attempt I submerged the torch tip in the water just as I had done before and BOOM!!! Not only did it blow the saran wrap plastic safety I had in the cap but the force of the explosion ripped the bubbler tank down the side as seen in these photos.

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Painless

02-20-2009, 11:16 AM

Nice install, can't see all of the pictures seems some of the links are broken?

Russ.

H2OPWR

02-20-2009, 12:55 PM

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 01:33 PM

Very nice looking set up and install. You spent some dough there. There is one thing I do not understand. That is your gaskets sticking to the plates. I have now switched to Nitrile but before had always used Neoprene. I probably tore down and rebuilt the cell dozens of times. The gaskets never stuck to the plates even a little. What grade, hardness, etc is the Neoprene. I could understand the sticking if you are using open cell Neo. The open cell's could create small vacuum cups that may stick in that way. If it is open cell Neo it will eventually become waterlogged and conductive causing issues.

Larry

Larry,

The gaskets are hard neoprene. Beleive me even when the bolts are removed I would bet that the cells would stay together. When you wash the plates and gaskets in just water and pull them from the dishwasher and assemble the cells it a a freaken job to pull 36 plates apart. I am talking of hours to seperate the plates.

Russ,

I bet your trying to view the images at work where they block sites. I have the same problem and see many broken images from my work. The images are being served by FileDen...

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Painless

02-20-2009, 01:47 PM

I'm using my blackberry at the moment which could be the issue, my home PC is down at the moment.

I will be at work in just over an hour and want to take a more detailed look at your posts then. I work in the I.T. department so blocked links won't be an issue :-)

BoyntonStu

02-20-2009, 02:01 PM

H2OPWR

02-20-2009, 03:03 PM

[QUOTE=DodgeViper;23886]Larry,

The gaskets are hard neoprene. Beleive me even when the bolts are removed I would bet that the cells would stay together. When you wash the plates and gaskets in just water and pull them from the dishwasher and assemble the cells it a a freaken job to pull 36 plates apart. I am talking of hours to seperate the plates.

If that is the case I simply can not understand the sticking problem. Like I said I used commercial grade Neoprene and not one gasket ever stuck even one little bit. I reused the gaskets over and over with no issues. There is something going on.

Larry

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 03:25 PM

Larry,

If that is the case I simply can not understand the sticking problem. Like I said I used commercial grade Neoprene and not one gasket ever stuck even one little bit. I reused the gaskets over and over with no issues. There is something going on.

Larry

Larry,

I don't have a problem with it sticking. I have worked with a number of neoprene gaskets working with boilers ovr the years and I have encountered the sticking before. When the gaskets are wet and the cell is put together wet is mainly where the sticking is encoutered. This makes a cell block leak proof... Neoprene when new usually has a powder on it to keep the neoprene from sticking to each other. It's once its washed is when it becomes tacky...

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 03:48 PM

BoyntonStu

Boynton,

My fault for not having a flashback arrestor install, but it was a great lesson learned. What kind of restriction do you have on producing HHO without and with the flashback arrestor installed?

I have yet to make any adjustments to my PWM and at 43 AMPS and making 3LPM is somewhat high. I do need to mention that at the time I did both of my videos on HHO production the cell block plates were not completely covered in electrolytes due to the res. being to low. I have purchased a few new bubblers and a new 3L res. and will need to reposition the bubblers. My last bubbler will contain vinegar to cleanse the HHO gas before entering the intake. The cell block I have can produce upwards of 7 liters at 80 Amps. I am shooting for 1 liter for each liter of my engine or 5 liters.

H2OPWR

02-20-2009, 03:56 PM

I take it that you have installed a high output alternator. If not those kind of amps will fry your OEM alternator.

Painless

02-20-2009, 03:57 PM

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 04:25 PM

I take it that you have installed a high output alternator. If not those kind of amps will fry your OEM alternator.

I currently have a 138 amp alternator and have contacted someone locally who can get 160 out of it. If needed I have located a 200 amp model...

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 04:33 PM

Just found some time to look through your posts again here at work, that's a really neat, clean install. I like the support bracket you fabricated, wish I had the facilities to do that kind of work.

Is your Ram a 4.7? I'm working on a 2006 4.7 myself.

You could always mount your reservoir slightly higher than your cell to keep it full.

Russ.

Russ I have a 2002 4.7L with a narrow band O2 sensor. Yea we have a very well equipped shop so I can fabricate anything I need. Here is a video of my O2 after the truck had warmed up. You have a wideband O2 on your truck... Have you had any luck?

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alpha-dog

02-20-2009, 04:49 PM

Larry,

I don't have a problem with it sticking. I have worked with a number of neoprene gaskets working with boilers ovr the years and I have encountered the sticking before. When the gaskets are wet and the cell is put together wet is mainly where the sticking is encoutered. This makes a cell block leak proof... Neoprene when new usually has a powder on it to keep the neoprene from sticking to each other. It's once its washed is when it becomes tacky...

You don't have a problem with sticking because you do have a problem with sealing. I've modified my sid cell for that reason. It didn't stick either, but now it does. You need to get rid of those nylon studs, replace them with 3/8 plastic tube with 1/4" bolts in them. Then you can get a good seal. You are probably leaking hydrogen gas since its smaller than oxygen and water. While you are at it read H2OPWR's thread of zero current leakage and get some plastic dip. You might want to read my thread on P-Channel mosfets also.
Russ

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 05:10 PM

You don't have a problem with sticking because you do have a problem with sealing. I've modified my sid cell for that reason. It didn't stick either, but now it does. You need to get rid of those nylon studs, replace them with 3/8 plastic tube with 1/4" bolts in them. Then you can get a good seal. You are probably leaking hydrogen gas since its smaller than oxygen and water. While you are at it read H2OPWR's thread of zero current leakage and get some plastic dip. You might want to read my thread on P-Channel mosfets also.
Russ

You missed read what I said. My plates are stuck together and need to be pulled apart when I disassemble the cell this taking hours to pull the cells apart. Sid use to use 1/4" bolts and plastic tubing and has gone to nylon bolts. There is NO possible way the cell is leaking due to the design. The bolt holes pass through the neoprene gaskets with a secured seal to metal/rubber around each bolt hole. The cell is not under pressure and the gas is going to take its least restrictive path, that being pulled into the intake… Sorry I do not buy into the cell leaking...

alpha-dog

02-20-2009, 05:17 PM

You missed read what I said. My plates are stuck together and need to be pulled apart when I disassemble the cell this taking hours to pull the cells apart. Sid use to use 1/4" bolts and plastic tubing and has gone to nylon bolts. There is NO possible way the cell is leaking due to the design. The bolt holes pass through the neoprene gaskets with a secured seal to metal/rubber around each bolt hole. The cell is not under pressure and the gas is going to take its least restive path, that being pulled into the intake… Sorry I do not buy into the cell leaking...

I glad your getting it to seal. Something else you might consider is adding a 5th neutral plate. You are probably uses 2.85Vdc between cells and a 5th plate will bring that down to about 2.25vdc. That should increase your production a little.
Russ

BoyntonStu

02-20-2009, 05:19 PM

Boynton,

My fault for not having a flashback arrestor install, but it was a great lesson learned. What kind of restriction do you have on producing HHO without and with the flashback arrestor installed?

I have yet to make any adjustments to my PWM and at 43 AMPS and making 3LPM is somewhat high. I do need to mention that at the time I did both of my videos on HHO production the cell block plates were not completely covered in electrolytes due to the res. being to low. I have purchased a few new bubblers and a new 3L res. and will need to reposition the bubblers. My last bubbler will contain vinegar to cleanse the HHO gas before entering the intake. The cell block I have can produce upwards of 7 liters at 80 Amps. I am shooting for 1 liter for each liter of my engine or 5 liters.

Actually, and strangely enough, the output of the Amoeba Cell with the Amoeba Double Safe T seemed a bit higher than without it.

I have recently been testing without it because the "T" had a leak.

(I have gone from glass to plastic reservoirs, etc.)

I will soon fix the leak and test the output with the "T" flash arrestor.

BoyntonStu

Painless

02-20-2009, 05:37 PM

Russ I have a 2002 4.7L with a narrow band O2 sensor. Yea we have a very well equipped shop so I can fabricate anything I need. Here is a video of my O2 after the truck had warmed up. You have a wideband O2 on your truck... Have you had any luck?

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Actually, my truck has narrowband O2's, for 2006 there are 2 pre-cat and 2 post-cat O2's. What leads people to believe that they are wideband is that Dodge uses a 2.5v bias signal with them, in other words, instead of a signal between 0 & 1 volt, they send a signal between 2.5 and 3.5 volts.

I built myself what I call an 'O2 Bias Replacement' box, it's basically a variable voltage regulator that I use to replace the 2.5v bias from the PCM with my own signal, i.e. I can supply 2.7v and get a 0.2v offset on the O2 signal.

So far, the best I've had is about an extra 1 or 2 mpg with 2.33 LPM of HHO, I'm working on the same principle as yourself right now, 1 LPM for each litre of engine capacity.

Russ.

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 05:38 PM

I glad your getting it to seal. Something else you might consider is adding a 5th neutral plate. You are probably uses 2.85Vdc between cells and a 5th plate will bring that down to about 2.25vdc. That should increase your production a little.
Russ

When I measured between the plates I was at 2.40V. I had not made any adjustment in the PWM as of yet. Waiting for my new bubblers to arrive before ongoing test...

DodgeViper

02-20-2009, 05:55 PM

Actually, my truck has narrowband O2's, for 2006 there are 2 pre-cat and 2 post-cat O2's. What leads people to believe that they are wideband is that Dodge uses a 2.5v bias signal with them, in other words, instead of a signal between 0 & 1 volt, they send a signal between 2.5 and 3.5 volts.

I built myself what I call an 'O2 Bias Replacement' box, it's basically a variable voltage regulator that I use to replace the 2.5v bias from the PCM with my own signal, i.e. I can supply 2.7v and get a 0.2v offset on the O2 signal.

So far, the best I've had is about an extra 1 or 2 mpg with 2.33 LPM of HHO, I'm working on the same principle as yourself right now, 1 LPM for each litre of engine capacity.

Russ.

Did you check temps at the exhaust just before the O2 sensor and before HHO and after HHO being introduced? Have you pulled the plugs to see how you managing the hydroxy? Lean or Rich? I have many years of drag boat racing and off-road racing and know the value of checking these item’s, they are a tall-tail sign of how your engine is performing.

Painless

02-20-2009, 06:04 PM

Did you check temps at the exhaust just before the O2 sensor and before HHO and after HHO being introduced? Have you pulled the plugs to see how you managing the hydroxy? Lean or Rich? I have many years of drag boat racing and off-road racing and know the value of checking these item’s, they are a tall-tail sign of how your engine is performing.

I've installed a EGT gauge on bank 1 in my truck and have taken baselines for idle, different speeds and WOT runs. So far, running HHO hasn't made my truck even sneeze, EGT's are the same and long and short term fuel trims haven't changed at all. I really want to see the engine react in some way before I dive into the electronic mods.

I'm *HOPING* to have my next cell built within the next two weeks, hopefully, I will have enough output.

Russ.

DodgeViper

02-21-2009, 08:57 AM

I've installed a EGT gauge on bank 1 in my truck and have taken baselines for idle, different speeds and WOT runs. So far, running HHO hasn't made my truck even sneeze, EGT's are the same and long and short term fuel trims haven't changed at all. I really want to see the engine react in some way before I dive into the electronic mods.

I'm *HOPING* to have my next cell built within the next two weeks, hopefully, I will have enough output.

Russ.

Well the elec. mods are a given to benefit an increase in mile per gallon gains. With the introduction of hydroxy this has added oxygen that the computer is now adjusting to richen the mixture, unless you have extended the O2 sensor out from the exhaust flow.

So it would be a safe bet you have yet located your O2 sensor wire at the computer? I have traced my wire up to a bundle of wires along the firewall but from this point more wires are introduced to this bundle, all separating and heading to what looks like 3 different computers. I would prefer to splice into the O2 wire near the computers and not at the O2 sensor. I bought a wiring schematic for my year of truck (2002 Ram) of which did not help as it showed on the schematic 4 O2 sensors and I only have 2 O2 sensors… :)

redneck323

02-21-2009, 09:13 AM

Are you certain you only have 2 because that new of a truck should have the 2 front pre catalyst fuel control sensors and 2 after the cat that monitor catalyst output. Any way either way you may still be able to use that wiring diagram easiest way to find out is to look at where the signal wire goes to the pcm on your schematic. there will be a picture of the pcm that shows a bunch of wires going in to the pcm the groups of wires are isolated into connectors on the schematic. Just find where you fuel o2 wires go into that pcm on the diagram and were it meets on the pcm it will give you a connector pin # just use a dvom and check continuity from there to your sensor, most of the time harnesses and things are standardized for one vehicle and just hidden in the harness for things that arent installed. I would take a look may still work for you.

Painless

02-21-2009, 09:28 AM

At the moment I've tapped into the wires at each o2 sensor, although the main connector at the PCM would be cleaner.

You're correct about the extra oxygen in the exhaust. When this happens, the O2 sensors will signal lean and you will see a notable change in the fuel trims with a scantool. This hasn't happened yet with my 06. Until I'm producing enough HHO that it does, adjusting electronics isn't the sensible next step.

DodgeViper

02-21-2009, 08:11 PM

Are you certain you only have 2 because that new of a truck should have the 2 front pre catalyst fuel control sensors and 2 after the cat that monitor catalyst output.

I am positive. I have been under the truck a number of times and I have 1 before and 1 after... I have looked on both exhaust manifiolds and the exhaust tube that connects to left side to the right side. Nothing other than the two sensors seen in the photos... I put a call into Checkers just to see what they show on their computers and they said that I have only two O2 sensors as well.... I have a single tube exhaust from the factory. I could see 4 being used on a dual factory exhaust.

Painless

02-21-2009, 10:54 PM

I am positive. I have been under the truck a number of times and I have 1 before and 1 after... I have looked on both exhaust manifiolds and the exhaust tube that connects to left side to the right side. Nothing other than the two sensors seen in the photos... I put a call into Checkers just to see what they show on their computers and they said that I have only two O2 sensors as well.... I have a single tube exhaust from the factory. I could see 4 being used on a dual factory exhaust.

Looking at the pictures of your truck, it's at latest an '05 model (I used to sell them for a living!) so may indeed only have O2's on bank 1. It used to be that only Rams ordered with the cali emissions package had O2's on both banks but it seems to have become the norm, at least since '06.

Russ.

DodgeViper

02-22-2009, 07:26 AM

Looking at the pictures of your truck, it's at latest an '05 model (I used to sell them for a living!) so may indeed only have O2's on bank 1. It used to be that only Rams ordered with the cali emissions package had O2's on both banks but it seems to have become the norm, at least since '06.

Russ.
Russ my truck is an 2002... The first year for this body style. My new bubblers will be here this next week and the testing will begin again. I need to trace down the sensor wire as I do not want to splice into the wire at the sensor. Like to keep everything clean.:)

redneck323

02-22-2009, 11:01 AM

I am sorry i misunderstood i thought you had 2 pre cat o2's look like you only have one fuel control sensor for both banks then. If your schematic shows the PCM check which ever one would be on the same bank as cylinder one BANK 1 Sensor 1 i am not sure if cyl. one is right or left but that is most likely the one and should point you to the correct ecm pin. Get the pin # for the signal wire at the PCM for Bank 1 sensor 1 and it may be the same pin. I would obviously check wire color at that pin # then run a continuity check from the pin to the sensor to varify it. The connectors are numbered at the pcm and if you have more than one which may be the case identify the connector by wire color on first and last pin should work for ya i hope... GOOD LUCK.

Painless

02-22-2009, 12:22 PM

Russ my truck is an 2002... The first year for this body style. My new bubblers will be here this next week and the testing will begin again. I need to trace down the sensor wire as I do not want to splice into the wire at the sensor. Like to keep everything clean.:)

If you go to this link:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/503137-2006_Dodge_Ram_Truck_Workshop_Service_Repair_Manua l.pdf (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/503137-2006_Dodge_Ram_Truck_Workshop_Service_Repair_Manua l.pdf)

...you will find the factory manual for the 2006 Rams. I know yours is a 2002, but I think there's a fair chance that the PCM harnesses are the same. You can at least check the wire at the connector and see if it's the correct signal.

Russ.

DodgeViper

02-22-2009, 08:26 PM

If you go to this link:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/503137-2006_Dodge_Ram_Truck_Workshop_Service_Repair_Manua l.pdf (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/503137-2006_Dodge_Ram_Truck_Workshop_Service_Repair_Manua l.pdf)

...you will find the factory manual for the 2006 Rams. I know yours is a 2002, but I think there's a fair chance that the PCM harnesses are the same. You can at least check the wire at the connector and see if it's the correct signal.

Russ.

Russ,

After spending about 1 hour and looking through a manual that consist of 9267 pages I have a headache. Never did find what I was after... :eek:

Painless

02-22-2009, 08:41 PM

Russ,

After spending about 1 hour and looking through a manual that consist of 9267 pages I have a headache. Never did find what I was after... :eek:

Check out section 8W-80, page 87.

Russ.

DodgeViper

02-22-2009, 11:02 PM

Check out section 8W-80, page 87.

Russ.

Russ,

Thank you... I will take a look with meter in hand...

DodgeViper

02-23-2009, 08:41 PM

Sorry for the person who emailed me requesting a drawing of how I have my bubblers, generator, reservior PVC tubing ran. I somehow deleted your email and can not send it to you. Hope you view these web pages. :)

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/HHO_Gas_Diagram.png

Dave Nowlin

02-24-2009, 11:14 AM

BoyntonStu

02-24-2009, 11:55 AM

I don't want to burst your bubble but the vinegar wouldn't neutralize the KOH that is contained in your KOH. The HHO compltete with KOH in both mist and vapor forms will be enclosed within a bubble and not released from the bubble until it reaches the surface of the vinegar where the bubble will burst liberating the KOH back into the gas stream going to your engine. If you substite a scrubber for the first bubbler and then a route the outgoing HHO from the cell back to your reservior and then take your HHO from the top of the reservior to the scrubber and then out to a bubbler you will get better results. You HHO will be dryer and more free of KOH.

Dave Nowlin

Dave,

In fact, you suggested bursting the bubble to neutralize the KOH! lol

In my reservoir/bubbler containers, I never use a bottom tubing connection.

I prefer the siphoning action.

With this in mind can you please draw a diagram of your suggested scrubber system?

BoyntonStu

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q339/BoyntonStu/AmoebaCellat451-27-09001-2.jpg

BoyntonStu

02-24-2009, 11:56 AM

Snapple Reservoir/Bubbler/Cooler
http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q339/BoyntonStu/ReservoirBubbler2-19-09.jpg

Dave Nowlin

02-24-2009, 12:48 PM

I don't know how to put a drawing on here so I will simply seek to explain it. The scrubber consists of a clear tube about 3 inches in diameter with a PVC cap glued to each end. It should be at least 10 inches long and can be longer to increase capacity. There is a tapped 3/8 inch hole in the center of each cap. There is also a tapped 3/8 inch hole in the clear tubing about 2/3 of the way up the tubing. Then a 3/8 inch male by hose barb fitting made of nylon is taken and the hose barb is carefully sawed off. Then a 3/8 inch check valve with barbs on both ends is taken and one barb sawed off. It will be mounted so that a flow of air into the scruuber is allowed but no outward flow. The nylon fitting is carefully drilled in such a way that the end of the check valve with the barb removed can be inserted into the hole and glued in place. I also drilled a hole down through the bushing and through the shank of the check valve. I then screwed stainless screws in from both sides to firmly hold the check valve in place. I carefully hacksawed both of them off flush with the surface of the bushing. I then used 5 minute epoxy to fill in the void between the bell on the check valve and the bushing. This assured there would be no leakage. This scrubber is filled with some very small plastic pellets of some sort. The male pipe thread fittings which are screwed onto the scrubber must have nylon screening glued in place over the end to prevent the pellets escaping. Downstream of this scrubber toward the bubbler another 3/8 inch check valve is placed in the tubing to allow flow away from the scrubber. The purpose of these two check valves is simple. It allows the electrolyte which has been removed from the HHO to be drawn back into the reservior when the system cools. It works like the coolant recovery bottle on your radiator. This device only removes liquid electrolyte as it has now way to remove vapor which is a gas. That could only be done with an absorptive media or by cooling the gas enough to condense it out for removal.

Dave Nowlin

DodgeViper

02-27-2009, 05:10 PM

I don't want to burst your bubble but the vinegar wouldn't neutralize the KOH that is contained in your KOH.
Dave Nowlin

You’re not busting my bubble... We are all here to learn from each other, but I would like to see your drawing. I have explained to you how to upload an image. Also I installed an air-stone used to release pressure on equipment. It’s made of stainless and bronze. The idea is to force the Hydroxy through the bronze tapered cone this creating micro bubbles this furthering cleansing the HHO gas. I plan to test production before and after this device is installed on each end of the dip tubes in the bubblers. If the restriction is too great then they are removed.

DodgeViper

03-13-2009, 11:06 AM

Well I hope to introduce HHO gas to my truck this weekend. I have a couple of friends in town and we are going to give it a shot. :)

H2OPWR

03-13-2009, 11:30 AM

[QUOTE=DodgeViper;25302]Well I hope to introduce HHO gas to my truck this weekend. I have a couple of friends in town and we are going to give it a shot. :)

Good luck, I am trying to get my install finished this weekend as well.

Larry

Painless

03-13-2009, 02:12 PM

Good luck, I am trying to get my install finished this weekend as well.

Larry

Same here. My new batch of KOH and the SS ball and spring check valves just arrived.

H2OPWR

03-13-2009, 02:52 PM

Same here. My new batch of KOH and the SS ball and spring check valves just arrived.

How are your check valves. I got a couple of them. They seem to require quite a bit more pressure to open. They should last and I am sure the pressure will not be a problem. Mine say 1lb to open.

Larry

Painless

03-13-2009, 03:29 PM

How are your check valves. I got a couple of them. They seem to require quite a bit more pressure to open. They should last and I am sure the pressure will not be a problem. Mine say 1lb to open.

Larry

Mine also say 1PSI, when blowing through them it seems to take a second for them to open but I don't think that will be an issue.

The proof, as always, will be in the pudding!

Russ.

DodgeViper

03-20-2009, 06:07 PM

Mine also say 1PSI, when blowing through them it seems to take a second for them to open but I don't think that will be an issue.

The proof, as always, will be in the pudding!

Russ.These check valve will not respond quickly enough on a flashback. I have a few of them on my torch I made and they restricted the flow so much so that when lighting the torch I did not have enough pressure that I got a flashback. Without the check valves and producing 2 LPM the .035 Mig welding tip I have a nice flame.

I ran my system and torch at 4 LPM today without my CCPWM as Shane currently has my CCPWM. At 4 LPM the flame is outstanding, but my ears are paying the price due to the huge BOOM!!! I have yet been able to extinguish the flame without a flashback. My Saran Wrap flashback safety on the top pf my bubbler works great.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/45.jpg

Painless

03-20-2009, 07:26 PM

These check valve will not respond quickly enough on a flashback. I have a few of them on my torch I made and they restricted the flow so much so that when lighting the torch I did not have enough pressure that I got a flashback. Without the check valves and producing 2 LPM the .035 Mig welding tip I have a nice flame.

I ran my system and torch at 4 LPM today without my CCPWM as Shane currently has my CCPWM. At 4 LPM the flame is outstanding, but my ears are paying the price due to the huge BOOM!!! I have yet been able to extinguish the flame without a flashback. My Saran Wrap flashback safety on the top pf my bubbler works great.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1347686/45.jpg

I don't employ the check valves as a flashback arrestor, they are to stop the reservoir drinking from the bubbler as it cools down and tries to suck in air.

My own HHO torch uses fine bronze wool, packed into a 3" nipple, as a flame arrestor. Works without fail so far.

Russ.

DodgeViper

03-21-2009, 04:40 AM

I don't employ the check valves as a flashback arrestor, they are to stop the reservoir drinking from the bubbler as it cools down and tries to suck in air.

My own HHO torch uses fine bronze wool, packed into a 3" nipple, as a flame arrestor. Works without fail so far.

Russ.

Hey Russ,

How tightly are your packing the nipple? I used medium and I will try fine.... Are you packing it so tight that its nearly overflowing and a b.itch to thread the fittings on?

Painless

03-21-2009, 08:16 AM

The fine wool is a must. I pack mine fairly tightly so as not to leave any air pockets between the barbs.

Russ.

BoyntonStu

03-21-2009, 09:48 AM

I don't employ the check valves as a flashback arrestor, they are to stop the reservoir drinking from the bubbler as it cools down and tries to suck in air.

My own HHO torch uses fine bronze wool, packed into a 3" nipple, as a flame arrestor. Works without fail so far.

Russ.

Russ,

If the reservoir is filled to the max, there can be very little 'drink back' on cool down.

My Snapple reservoir shape with a small volume neck is a good design to avoid the problem.

KISS

BoyntonStu

DodgeViper

03-21-2009, 02:37 PM

The fine wool is a must. I pack mine fairly tightly so as not to leave any air pockets between the barbs.

Russ.

I bought fine bronze wool today and packed my torch from one end to the other end. On the first try I managed to shut off the valve and have the flame die. On the second attempt I got a flashback of which blow my Saran Wrap safety to pieces. At the time of the flashback I was producing right at 4 LPM and my bubbler was returning electrolyte fluid to the generator through the overflow this keeping my HHO to a minimum within the bubbler. Never-the-less I had another BOOM!!!

Painless

03-21-2009, 02:42 PM

Strange, what are you packing the bronze wool into?

You need to make sure that there are no air gaps inside the tube, I take the bronze wool and feed it tightly into one end, twisting it as I push it in to ensure it is well packed.

Russ.

H2OPWR

03-21-2009, 02:47 PM

I bought fine bronze wool today and packed my torch from one end to the other end. On the first try I managed to shut off the valve and have the flame die. On the second attempt I got a flashback of which blow my Saran Wrap safety to pieces. At the time of the flashback I was producing right at 4 LPM and my bubbler was returning electrolyte fluid to the generator through the overflow this keeping my HHO to a minimum within the bubbler. Never-the-less I had another BOOM!!!

I have never made a torch so this is just an observation. Wouldnt you be better off with the shut off valve at the other end of your torch. That would leave the bronze wool between the tip and the shut off.

Larry

Painless

03-21-2009, 03:06 PM

DodgeViper

03-21-2009, 07:08 PM

To confirm, yes, you should have the shut off then the arrestor then the tip.

Russ.

Yea you’re right but it would not look as nice...

I did pack more fine bronze wool into the 6" brass pipe between the valve and where the hose attaches to the torch.

I will be making a new torch... It's kinda cool when you have a non believer of HHO and I can fire up a torch and have them standing somewhat close when I shut the valve off. With them having no idea what’s about to happen, the BANG sure gets their attention and then it’s an entirely new story about HHO... They are now full of questions.

BoyntonStu

03-21-2009, 10:51 PM

Yea you’re right but it would not look as nice...

I did pack more fine bronze wool into the 6" brass pipe between the valve and where the hose attaches to the torch.

I will be making a new torch... It's kinda cool when you have a non believer of HHO and I can fire up a torch and have them standing somewhat close when I shut the valve off. With them having no idea what’s about to happen, the BANG sure gets their attention and then it’s an entirely new story about HHO... They are now full of questions.

The loud bang of hho exploding is not proportional to its power potential.

The loud sound is due to its flame speed, not its energy.

BoyntonStu

DodgeViper

03-23-2009, 08:59 AM

The loud bang of hho exploding is not proportional to its power potential.

The loud sound is due to its flame speed, not its energy.

BoyntonStu

I agree... and with what little HHO gas is contained in the bubbler is very important. People need to understand that allowing the electrolyte level to diminish while allowing HHO gas within the bubbler to increase problems can and will develop if a flashback should happen.

I did have a few successful shut-offs of my torch after having packed the handle more tightly with bronze wool, but the valve needs to be moved to the rear of the torch. A friend of mine who owns Plastic Plus and manufactures many parts made of polycarbonate is very interested in building a HHO torch to be used in the plastic industry for his own needs.

DodgeViper

03-27-2009, 09:39 PM

My latest YouTube video. System running at 60 Amps and HHO production 4 LPM... :D

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nVm0nokiXe0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/drA1MGqMzQc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QfCg5mtLeoo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

DodgeViper

03-28-2009, 06:58 PM

I have never made a torch so this is just an observation. Wouldnt you be better off with the shut off valve at the other end of your torch. That would leave the bronze wool between the tip and the shut off.

Larry

Larry,

Thanks for the tip on placing the valve to the rear of the torch. This proved to solve the problem of the flashback. I have now turn the valve off a dozen times with no flashback.

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/320b9NGiFU0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

mytoyotasucks

03-29-2009, 12:19 AM

I like the flow meter.

DodgeViper

04-19-2009, 12:02 AM

Ran my system today and these are the numbers I came up with...

Bubbler Electrolyte Temps 87.6F
Reservoir Electrolyte Temps 87.2F
Electrolyzer Voltage Between Positive/Negative 13.08V
Electrolyzer Voltage Between Positive/Neutral 2.445V
AMP/Current Draw 77.2A
Engine RPM 1500
13.08V x 77.2A = 1009.776 Watts
1 liter of HHO in 10.2 Seconds
Roughly 6 LPM
6000ML / 1009.776W = 5.941 MMW
Test was run after the system had run for 1 hour.

H2OPWR

04-19-2009, 12:20 AM

DodgeViper

04-19-2009, 07:13 PM

Nice Numbers
Larry

Thanks Larry... I have been following your work in these forums and on U-Tube... Waiting for you to make huge gains... :) I have been kinda sidelined on doing much with my system. Kicking arround the idea of having a knee replacement. I have been in lots of pain with the knee being bone on bone from an old football injury... :mad:

H2OPWR

04-19-2009, 08:07 PM

Thanks Larry... I have been following your work in these forums and on U-Tube... Waiting for you to make huge gains... :) I have been kinda sidelined on doing much with my system. Kicking arround the idea of having a knee replacement. I have been in lots of pain with the knee being bone on bone from an old football injury... :mad:

I spent the weekend practicing solvent welding and drilling and tapping Acrylic. I should get my pieces ready for the nano plate cell this week. In the meantime I am watching my truck and its adjustments to HHO closely. I have about come to the conclusion that I am just going to install the enhancers and start over. Now I have nice gains at 25 to 40 MPH. My truck seems to be using substantially less fuel. Still at idle and low speeds I am drinking gas. Double normal. The truck is still idling around 900 RPM's and I have to ride the brakes to go less than 20 MPH. That said I still was over normal MPG on my last tank.

Larry

DodgeViper

04-20-2009, 12:29 AM

I spent the weekend practicing solvent welding and drilling and tapping Acrylic. I should get my pieces ready for the nano plate cell this week. In the meantime I am watching my truck and its adjustments to HHO closely. I have about come to the conclusion that I am just going to install the enhancers and start over. Now I have nice gains at 25 to 40 MPH. My truck seems to be using substantially less fuel. Still at idle and low speeds I am drinking gas. Double normal. The truck is still idling around 900 RPM's and I have to ride the brakes to go less than 20 MPH. That said I still was over normal MPG on my last tank.

Larry

Larry,

You mention in one of your videos of air gas temps. Slips my memory what the temps were but I believe it was like 43 Celsius, is this correct? I ran my system up to 83 Amps today and my air temps were 109 degrees. I measured the temps of the stainless steel plates at 138 degrees. All these temps were measured without having my CCPWM installed. I believe I am going to shoot for around 65A total draw once I decide to introduce HHO unless I come up with a larger alternator...

H2OPWR

04-20-2009, 02:06 AM

Larry,

You mention in one of your videos of air gas temps. Slips my memory what the temps were but I believe it was like 43 Celsius, is this correct? I ran my system up to 83 Amps today and my air temps were 109 degrees. I measured the temps of the stainless steel plates at 138 degrees. All these temps were measured without having my CCPWM installed. I believe I am going to shoot for around 65A total draw once I decide to introduce HHO unless I come up with a larger alternator...

My gas temp in my last test was 46 degrees F. I never measure in Celcius. I live in a very cold climate so the gas temps are much cooler. I also have most current leakage blocked which helps effeciency and temps. I seriously doubt that your stock alternator has 65 amps to spare during all conditions. Most can not even come close to that. You may be OK most of the time but when the time comes that the extra 65 amps is too much you will smoke your alternator. I would recommend an alternator upgrade before you attempt a constant 65 amp draw.

Larry

DodgeViper

04-20-2009, 07:58 AM

My gas temp in my last test was 46 degrees F. I never measure in Celcius. I live in a very cold climate so the gas temps are much cooler. I also have most current leakage blocked which helps effeciency and temps. I seriously doubt that your stock alternator has 65 amps to spare during all conditions. Most can not even come close to that. You may be OK most of the time but when the time comes that the extra 65 amps is too much you will smoke your alternator. I would recommend an alternator upgrade before you attempt a constant 65 amp draw.

Larry

I do agree with you on the alternator. I have been very careful not to have anything else running...

DodgeViper

06-17-2009, 12:03 AM

Update to this thread. I kinda took a break but interest has gotten me moving forward again. Had a setback this passed weekend when the generator ran for about 45 minutes and then shutdown.

Having tried a number of things, from changing electrolyte to making a repair to the ground wire the system just would not produce any gas even thoughI had power to the cells. I then decided that the cells were shorted out. Because of the way I have the generator mounted I was not able to see the bottom of the plates. I suspected I had a leak that led to a build up of Potassium Hydroxide across the plates. After removing the generator and upon inspection I was correct. After cleaning up the bottom of the plates and remounting the generator everything is now AOK... :D :D :D

H2OPWR

06-17-2009, 12:16 AM

DodgeViper

06-18-2009, 09:48 AM

To all others, please keep on topic of this thread, if you want to reply to safehho and what he is marketing please start another thread... Thanks, The Viper...:)

hhonewbie

06-19-2009, 04:19 AM

DodgeViper

06-19-2009, 10:56 AM

Hey Viper
Nice setup
Im a beginner so I hope you dont mind the lame questions
Would a mixture of flat plate and perforated plate produce more hho???
Do you have to disasemble your gen to clean plates and how often do you have to disasemble to clean?
Cant you clean the gen without disasembling?

I have no experience in using perforated plates. As for cleaning I have pumped white vinegar through my system for a few hours and then flushed the system with distilled water. I hope NOT to disassemble the gen as it is a pain in the ass to do with these neoprene gaskets.

A few post above you should have read where I had a leak and this had to be cleaned before the cells would produce again. Kinda my fault in that I had not checked the cells after having been heated up and cooled down number of times after the install...

DodgeViper

11-24-2010, 06:07 PM

Wow can't believe this thread is still available... So where is HHO at today guys? Has there been much advancement?

b1jetmech

11-24-2010, 08:47 PM

Viper,

Just read through your work and it's fantastic! Did you have any mileage increase with your cell system?

Here's what I've been working on: http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=6577

Chase

Roland Jacques

11-26-2010, 07:26 AM

Wow can't believe this thread is still available... So where is HHO at today guys? Has there been much advancement?

It appears to me the direction of HHO is headed toward very High voltage systems with super low amps. Rumors of 3-5 LPM of (quality) HHO at 10-20 watts are being said.

I hope to have some real details on that by spring. The electronics are way over my head, some of the components are very critical in making them so... I think their are a few unrelated folks working on this. We will see.

Oh yeah a guy Name Fast Freddy has been claiming to run 100% water truck. A lot of reputable HHO guys think it is a scam. But some OU physics guys are trying to duplicate it so they think it is legit. The high voltage approach seems more of a sure thing than Fast Freddy's approach. But ether way i think some neat things are coming.