Question about wet and dry cells temp

[Stealth_NT]

Hello everyone, Im new here but I was reading this forum for a long time since I register here.

I have few questions:

Wet cells.

What is the max temperature acceptable for a wet cell?


Dry cells.

What is the max normal working temperature for a dry cell in normal conditions (summer)


I was testing a wet cell for more than 2 hrs (outside of car) after 2 hrs of operation at 68 F ambient temp, this wet cell reach 177 F and stay there, I read somewhere in this forums wet cells never work under 150 F, I just want to confirm that.

Exist some kind of calculation of how many liters per minut needs a 4 cilinders car, 6 cilinder car etc?


Thanks and sorry for my bad english.

[Painless]

Hi and welcome to the forum!

There are no perfect formulas, but one litre of HHO for each litre of engine capacity is a good guide.

You will find that all cells will produce better with higher temperatures, but you should keep your cell at a temp that is safe for the materials it is built from. Personally, I would aim to keep any cell under 140 F.

Your cell design is the way to control temp. Check out the website in my signature, there is an article on 'Controlling Heat' which will help you to understand the principles of design that affect temp.

In short, more heat is good for production, but too much may damage your cell or allow your electrolyte to reach your engines intake.

You will find that dry cells are more inclined to stablity of temp (when designed properly).
Russ.

[SmartScarecrow]

Hi and welcome to the forum!

There are no perfect formulas, but one litre of HHO for each litre of engine capacity is a good guide.

You will find that all cells will produce better with higher temperatures, but you should keep your cell at a temp that is safe for the materials it is built from. Personally, I would aim to keep any cell under 140 F.

Your cell design is the way to control temp. Check out the website in my signature, there is an article on 'Controlling Heat' which will help you to understand the principles of design that affect temp.

In short, more heat is good for production, but too much may damage your cell or allow your electrolyte to reach your engines intake.

You will find that dry cells are more inclined to stablity of temp (when designed properly).
Russ.


the advice above is sound ... you need to be concerned about the materials used in your system surviving ... the electrolysis process itself is pretty hard on materials as it is ... if your device runs run at very high temperatures, many common materials will start to degrade ... sometimes this degradation will not be obvious until you have a catastrophic failure ...

PVC is very popular as a material for containers, delivery system components and on dry cells, end plates ... some will even use PVC as the gasket material between the plates in a dry cell ... the material works well, is inexpensive and easy to get ... but it will degrade quickly at temperatures above about 150F ... so to keep it safe and sane, planning your device so that it will not exceed about 120-140F is a good idea ...

there are two primary sources of over heating ... running a device with too high a voltage per gap and pushing more watts into a device than you have enough surface area to support ... on your first device, I would suggest you follow a "known to work" pattern to try to avoid disappointment ... once you have some experience and sort of get the hang of it, playing and experimenting with different layouts is a big part of the fun ...

plan you device, wet or dry cell, so that you will have as close to 2v applied per plate gap as possible ... your efficiency will drop off faster from under voltage than over voltage ... so if you must choose between 1.8v and 2.2v, take the 2.2v ... but keep it as close to 2v as possible ... this is done by imposing bi-polar (neutral, no electrical connection) plates between those that carry power ... in a wet cell, the lazy nature of electricity will kill your performance if you fail to seal up the plate edge area so that the juice cannot do an end run around your plates through the electrolyte ... in a dry cell, this problem is pretty much eliminated except for the small amount of current leakage at the holes drilled in the plates ...

you should also plan your device so that the total surface area is equal to at least 1 square inch per .25 watts of applied energy ... some have gotten away with slightly higher energy densities, but this is a known workable target so is a safe place to start ... as an example, if I want to apply 500 watts of energy (12v @ 40a), I will need to plan my device so that I have about 2000 square inches of plate surface area exposed to the reaction ... this will ensure that my device produces well at this power level without creating too much excess heat and steam ...

hope all that rambling helps ...

[Stealth_NT]

Thx for answer SmartScarecrow, about the materials I will use only materials who can support more than the 177F I already get on my 1 test, I will go also for a dry cell. Possible I will start to build this cell this week I already buy the SS and other mats.

Talking about the cell I have 7 plates of SS 6x6 inch, im still thinking about the hole size in the plates also in wich position... but my main question here is wich setup is beter or will work beter for 7 plates cell?, I was looking for the answer in forums but I get a little bit confuse at this point since there is a lot of opinions about this.

Wich one can be beter?

+NNNNN-
-NN+NN-
+N-N+N-

Thx for the link about the cooling system Painless I will try to make something like that once a time the cell is done, I will try to report the results, my multimeter have a temp sensor so I can check the temp all the time.

I will like to build everything and test it out of car so once a time I get a decent production (what will be a good production on this cell?) I can install and test on my car. Btw talking about that my car is 2.5 turbo what is already modify a little bit for 1/4 mille but still be my dialy use car (big ic, stronger ingnition system, almost double PSI of presure in turbo in comparisson with an stock, air/fuel meter this one will help me for the adjustments of ecu if they come necesary, etc)

I read somewhere here there is no trouble to inyect the HHO directly to the intake before the turbo, as I read the HHO facts in some data sheet I also think I will have no troubles, but if some1 can make some comments about HHO and gasoline turbo cars I will glad to read it.


Thanks again and sorry for my bad english.

[H2OPWR]

Thx for answer SmartScarecrow, about the materials I will use only materials who can support more than the 177F I already get on my 1 test, I will go also for a dry cell. Possible I will start to build this cell this week I already buy the SS and other mats.

Talking about the cell I have 7 plates of SS 6x6 inch, im still thinking about the hole size in the plates also in wich position... but my main question here is wich setup is beter or will work beter for 7 plates cell?, I was looking for the answer in forums but I get a little bit confuse at this point since there is a lot of opinions about this.

Wich one can be beter?

+NNNNN-
-NN+NN-
+N-N+N-

Thx for the link about the cooling system Painless I will try to make something like that once a time the cell is done, I will try to report the results, my multimeter have a temp sensor so I can check the temp all the time.

I will like to build everything and test it out of car so once a time I get a decent production (what will be a good production on this cell?) I can install and test on my car. Btw talking about that my car is 2.5 turbo what is already modify a little bit for 1/4 mille but still be my dialy use car (big ic, stronger ingnition system, almost double PSI of presure in turbo in comparisson with an stock, air/fuel meter this one will help me for the adjustments of ecu if they come necesary, etc)

I read somewhere here there is no trouble to inyect the HHO directly to the intake before the turbo, as I read the HHO facts in some data sheet I also think I will have no troubles, but if some1 can make some comments about HHO and gasoline turbo cars I will glad to read it.


Thanks again and sorry for my bad english.

In an automotive application the +nnnnn- set up is far better for effeciency and controlling heat. I can not imagine that with the +nnnnn- set up you would ever get near the 170+ degree mark you have seen. The heat is caused from ineffecient use of the electricity. Just my opinion.

Larry

[Stealth_NT]

Well the facts is +nnnnn- configuration works pretty well, I run for 3 hrs my test I get a little bit more gas production and my max temp was 142 F using the same power imput.

Tomorrow I hope I get the KOH and the other stuff so I can make a real test...

Btw any comments abou the turbo's possible troubles?

Thx

[Stealth_NT]

KOH + destiled water works wide beter, I get more gas production and a little bit more temperature...

I goin to start build the real system for my car but I get a little bit confused about the way to make this system... So I make a draw on my computer for explain beter my self.

My 1st question is if the check valvle no. 1 is necesary or not, I was thinking on this for make all the water run arround the reservoir tank and cell all the time... Buy I still have some doubt's about this.

The check valvle 2, I know is just for security and bublier for clean the gas.

If some1 found and error on this please let me know about that.

Thx



http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9245/98986541254.jpg

[Painless]

The check valve between the dry cell and the reservoir isn't necessary, but you do need one betwwen the reservoir and the bubbler. Without this, when the cell is off and electrolyte cools the reservoir will suck the contents of the bubbler into itself.

[Stealth_NT]

OK, I alredy change the draw again so maybe help to some1 else who ask the same question, thx again.

[Stealth_NT]

Well at last I can make my 1st dry cell but I have some troubles with the production.

I have 2 power supply one of them is 12 volts 10 amps and the other one is 12 volts 30 amps, so I start with the 10 amps 1st.

My dry cell info

SS 316
7 plates, 6" inch
+nnnnn-
Hose size 1/2 inch
Gaskets 4 mm
3 lts of distilled water
8 teaspoon of KOH 87% (was only 4 at the begining)



10 amps supply.
I start with 4 tsp of koh at the 1st test I run the cell for more than 6 hrs I was expecting some heat from the cell but the fact was I just get no heat at all, the production was really slow (like 1 buble every 2 seconds), so as I get no heat at all I add more koh (8 teaspoon) and still no temperature change.
Results after 4 hrs:
Ambiemt temp. 81F
Temperature: 84 F
Production: 250 ml per minut


30 amps supply
Same quantitie of koh and water as the 10 amp test... After run the system 4 hrs I get like 2-3 bubles every second the result was:
Ambient temp: 84 F
Temperature: 90 F
Production: almost 500 ml per minut


As I read here I must get at last more than 1 liter per minut but I just cant reach that production, also the extrange thing is the temperature because I get almost no temperature rise even with 30 amps, my 1st test was in a wet cell in that one I reach in less than an hr more than 170 F :confused:


Any comment will be appreciated



http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1435/image0723472085.jpg

[Painless]

Well at last I can make my 1st dry cell but I have some troubles with the production.

I have 2 power supply one of them is 12 volts 10 amps and the other one is 12 volts 30 amps, so I start with the 10 amps 1st.

My dry cell info

SS 316
7 plates, 6" inch
+nnnnn-
Hose size 1/2 inch
Gaskets 4 mm
3 lts of distilled water
8 teaspoon of KOH 87% (was only 4 at the begining)



10 amps supply.
I start with 4 tsp of koh at the 1st test I run the cell for more than 6 hrs I was expecting some heat from the cell but the fact was I just get no heat at all, the production was really slow (like 1 buble every 2 seconds), so as I get no heat at all I add more koh (8 teaspoon) and still no temperature change.
Results after 4 hrs:
Ambiemt temp. 81F
Temperature: 84 F
Production: 250 ml per minut


30 amps supply
Same quantitie of koh and water as the 10 amp test... After run the system 4 hrs I get like 2-3 bubles every second the result was:
Ambient temp: 84 F
Temperature: 90 F
Production: almost 500 ml per minut


As I read here I must get at last more than 1 liter per minut but I just cant reach that production, also the extrange thing is the temperature because I get almost no temperature rise even with 30 amps, my 1st test was in a wet cell in that one I reach in less than an hr more than 170 F :confused:


Any comment will be appreciated



http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1435/image0723472085.jpg

Your 4mm gaskets are more than likely your biggest hurdle here, the gap is too wide for a generator this size. Change for some gaskets half that thickness, or even better 1mm thick and you will see a big difference.

Russ.

[Stealth_NT]

Ok thx for answer I will try that on monday today is to late for buy a new gaskets.

[H2OPWR]

Nice cell but I agree with russ. with a 7 plate cell use 1/16" gaskets max.

Larry

[H2OPWR]

I can not tell for sure by your pic. Do you have a higher outlet tube on the other side of youe cell. If you do not you are going to have a devil of a time ever keeping your device full. The electrolite will lower in your device to a level delow the gas outlet.

Larry

[bigjim56]

Thanks for reposting this thread, makes good refresher reading. My first read I also thought that the gasket thickness was too thick, was glad to see the confirming posts by Russ and Larry.

I used shower pan liner from Lowe's in the hopes that my efficiency would be increased (temps. to be monitored closely). Currently using the water4gas design, so most anything is an increase over that. I believe that even a little HHO is good, but more is naturally desired by everyone.

bigjim56

[Stealth_NT]

I can not tell for sure by your pic. Do you have a higher outlet tube on the other side of youe cell. If you do not you are going to have a devil of a time ever keeping your device full. The electrolite will lower in your device to a level delow the gas outlet.

Larry


I make a mistake there (I have no idea what the hell I was thinking wen I make the holes) I will fix that on monday, btw I already change the gasket's (1.2 mm) now is working wide beter but I stll keep my low temp °35 C ( °95 F)

Now I get 750-800 ml per minut, I think I can get more once a time I fix my trouble with the tube's position because in the way the cell is now is working only the 50% of the cell.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8518/image0734119530.jpg

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7977/image0744129909.jpg

[H2OPWR]

I make a mistake there (I have no idea what the hell I was thinking wen I make the holes) I will fix that on monday, btw I already change the gasket's (1.2 mm) now is working wide beter but I stll keep my low temp °35 C ( °95 F)

Now I get 750-800 ml per minut, I think I can get more once a time I fix my trouble with the tube's position because in the way the cell is now is working only the 50% of the cell.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8518/image0734119530.jpg

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7977/image0744129909.jpg

Fix those tubes and your gas production will double. You can reuse the end plates. Just put a pvc pipe plug in those center holes. Make a hole at the top for gas out and at the bottom for electrolite return.

Larry

[BoyntonStu]

I make a mistake there (I have no idea what the hell I was thinking wen I make the holes) I will fix that on monday, btw I already change the gasket's (1.2 mm) now is working wide beter but I stll keep my low temp °35 C ( °95 F)

Now I get 750-800 ml per minut, I think I can get more once a time I fix my trouble with the tube's position because in the way the cell is now is working only the 50% of the cell.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8518/image0734119530.jpg

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7977/image0744129909.jpg

First, flip the cell 90* and measure the output.

BoyntonStu

[Stealth_NT]

I already try flip the cell 90° but the result was worst (less production and more foam), I need to fix the holes position's in the cell wall's.

[Stealth_NT]

I have another question, as I goin to rebuild this cell again I will like to check some detail's.

About the plate hole's, I see some ppl use only one hole at the top and some otheres use two, 1 at the top and one at the bottom, wich one is the right way to do this?

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2453/plates.gif

[BoyntonStu]

I have another question, as I goin to rebuild this cell again I will like to check some detail's.

About the plate hole's, I see some ppl use only one hole at the top and some otheres use two, 1 at the top and one at the bottom, wich one is the right way to do this?

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2453/plates.gif

Neither.

Put the hole at the top near a corner and turn the cell 45*.

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q339/BoyntonStu/AmoebaCellat451-27-09001.jpg

BoyntonStu

[H2OPWR]

I have another question, as I goin to rebuild this cell again I will like to check some detail's.

About the plate hole's, I see some ppl use only one hole at the top and some otheres use two, 1 at the top and one at the bottom, wich one is the right way to do this?

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2453/plates.gif

There are definately two schools of thought here. Eliminating the bottom hole should result in lower current leakage and a more effecient device. The key is the ability to keep the plate gaps full of electrolite with no bottom holes. Some have been having success with that design. I am still unsure as to whether the device will remain full of e-lite and level with all gaps having similar amounts of e-lite with only a top hole. If you can not keep the device full and level over a period of time your effeciency will suffer. I use both a top and bottom hole. That would be my recomendation but I am sure you will get recomendations both ways. In the end it will be your choice. With that said you could try it with one hole first if you choose to. You can always add another if you find it not working. You can not take a hole away once it has been drilled. Good Luck.

Larry

[Stealth_NT]

Thx for answer Larry and BoyntonStu, now I will have to take a brake for think about this a little bit. :D

[alpha-dog]

Dont listen to Stu,

This is the best design in the world:



Only kidding Stu. HAHA

Seriously as larry said, you are the one to decide. I agree with larry as I can see no way the fluid level will stay the same in Stu's design. However if you go with that design, you can always add a lower hole later..... but you can never undrill a hole.....

You know it looks like your using more surface area with it point at a 45 degree angle.

[H2OPWR]

I think it is about the same. You lose a little for the extra clipped corner, but you should gain some from the gas being concentrated in the top.... at least that is my thinking.....

I do beleive that with the 45 degree design that you are going to use more surface area. As the gas pushes the e-lite down (and it will) you leave less of the plate uncovered. It will not be more effecient just let you buy smaller plates saving money in the design and still produce the same amount of gas. IMO it is probably the way to go from the start.

Larry

[BoyntonStu]

No holes through the gaskets are needed.

Square plates, one hole.

Square gaskets, one square hole. Easy to cut with a pair of scissors.

Easy to make and assemble.

I am confident that an Amoeba Cell will produce 6+MMW.

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

As you can see I did not use holes in the gaskets.... That was a drawing of an earlier design.

A few questions:

What advantage is served by clipping the corners of the stainless plates?

A square gasket is much easier to make.

Why use plastic end plates with additional gaskets if you can eliminate them?

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

The 3 corners are clipped on the N plates and only 2 are clipped on the charged plates (the non clipped corner has a 1/4 in hole for a bolt to pass thru....allowing electrical connection.)

Yes square gaskets are easier to make but it took me maybe 2 min each gasket to cut out with a template….

I agree I would much rather use metal endplates. They offer lots of advantages and 1 big drawback. The problem is today’s PWMs are using N channel MOSFETs. They need to use P channel to be able to the metal ends (if you put the + in the center). I think alpha-dog is working on a P channel PWM….

On a side note, I have been running my cell for over 84 hours now and no discoloration of the e-lite. I am thinking of tearing it down tonight to see the patina and see how the isolation material is holding up…


I have never used a PWM until yesterday.

The PWM is in a 600 Watt dimmer that I use on my MOT supply primary.

It is really nice to see the effect of voltage change, but I cannot see why a PWM would be necessary in a car.

It believe that it is simpler to switch a plate or 2 in or out of the circuit.

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

Basically to keep from drawing to many amps. Most cars cannot support over 15-20A. This way you can run full strength E-lite and pull max amps at startup instead of waiting for the cell to heat up...


It believe that it is simpler to switch a plate or 2 in or out of the circuit.

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

Low tech, not simpler.

Low tech, cheaper, and IMHO a manual switch is simpler than a constant current PWM.

(A current limiting breaker or fuse also keeps you out of trouble.)

BoyntonStu

[H2OPWR]

It believe that it is simpler to switch a plate or 2 in or out of the circuit.

BoyntonStu

Stu, I understand the idea but how do you overcome the loss of effeciency that you will get when the cell is running at a higher voltage per plate gap with fewer plates. For most of us that would be the majority of the time. Any short commute you would be running fewer plates and a less effecient device. Most of us including yourself have spent abundent time and modey to make our cells more effecient. A PWM is the only way I know to maintain the effeciency as well as keep a constant current to the cell.

Larry