The Smokey 15% MPG increase question?

[BoyntonStu]

The Smokey 15% MPG increase question?

I have gotten a 15% increase by air restriction. (100% positive)

Another got 15% with EFIE adjustment. (I believe him)

Another got 15% increase with water vapor. (I believe him)

Another got 15% increase with great sparkplugs and great wires.
(I believe him)

And another got 15% increase with hho. (I am not so sure that it was hho, it could have been water vapor or efie)


Are we all seeing the same 15% 'slack' built into every engine?


Why is it that the 15% increases do not add up to 30% increase or more?


BoyntonStu

[Gary Diamond]

The Smokey 15% MPG increase question?

I have gotten a 15% increase by air restriction. (100% positive)

Another got 15% with EFIE adjustment. (I believe him)

Another got 15% increase with water vapor. (I believe him)

Another got 15% increase with great sparkplugs and great wires.
(I believe him)

And another got 15% increase with hho. (I am not so sure that it was hho, it could have been water vapor or efie)


Are we all seeing the same 15% 'slack' built into every engine?


Why is it that the 15% increases do not add up to 30% increase or more?


BoyntonStu

Its time to fire up your 3 wheel bike, and give us some real data

[Painless]

Stu,

I suppose it all comes down to the ECU at the end of the day. It seems to be the case that they will only allow a certain percentage of fuel trims before they either refuse to go any further or light up the CEL indicator.

I've noticed this in some tests that I've done:

I've tried cruising at 55 mph and adjusting my MAP with my vehicle stock. The fuel trims on my scangauge go to a maximum +33 both short and long term. If I hold this for too long a 'too lean' code is thrown. What is basically happening here is the MAP is saying "less load, go leaner!" then the O2's are saying "too much O2, go richer".

Once again, our battle is the good old ECU.

When we adjust MAP, MAF, IAT or CTS sensors, the ECU adjusts the fuel trim values in response to the warmer air / reduced load or whatever else we are fooling it into thinking its seeing. The ECU then notes that the exhaust gas is showing more O2 and richens up the mixture again.

We can get around this by fooling the O2 readings with an EFIE, however, the ECU will still only allow the negative fuel trims to go so far.

This, I believe, is the answer to your question.

Russ.

[BoyntonStu]

Stu,

I suppose it all comes down to the ECU at the end of the day. It seems to be the case that they will only allow a certain percentage of fuel trims before they either refuse to go any further or light up the CEL indicator.

I've noticed this in some tests that I've done:

I've tried cruising at 55 mph and adjusting my MAP with my vehicle stock. The fuel trims on my scangauge go to a maximum +33 both short and long term. If I hold this for too long a 'too lean' code is thrown. What is basically happening here is the MAP is saying "less load, go leaner!" then the O2's are saying "too much O2, go richer".

Once again, our battle is the good old ECU.

When we adjust MAP, MAF, IAT or CTS sensors, the ECU adjusts the fuel trim values in response to the warmer air / reduced load or whatever else we are fooling it into thinking its seeing. The ECU then notes that the exhaust gas is showing more O2 and richens up the mixture again.

We can get around this by fooling the O2 readings with an EFIE, however, the ECU will still only allow the negative fuel trims to go so far.

This, I believe, is the answer to your question.

Russ.

Russ,

My ZX2 has been running with an air estriction and no codes for over 1,000 miles.

My other car, threw a "Service Engine Soon" in about 10 minutes of air restriction.

I stopped the car and I removed the restriction.

We continued for about 80 miles with the code light on.

Strange enough, the car never got as high MPG as that trip.

The ECU seemed to remember the setting.

The next morning, I disconnected the battery, reset the code, and the car was as before, less MPG.

If the ECU cannot allow less than a certain gas restriction, we are all fooked!

Is there any way around it?


For example, are the ECU's able to run a car at 12,000 feet altitude?

There is MUCH less air in La Paz Bolivia than in Florida.

BoyntonStu

[Gary Diamond]

I think the answer is to be able to change, and be able to reprogram the car computer with a new chip, that will accept HHO as a good thing, not try to fight it.

[Painless]

This is one of those things that has been on the back burner of my mind for some time.

Gary is correct about reprogramming, however, that is a dark art. Megasquirt may be a good answer, but I feel it would take a long time just to replicate the factory system first.

Russ.

[Q-Hack!]

I am sure that it's the same reason that folks who are trying to increase power on their engines have. A cold air intake will gain 15% power, a high performance exhaust will gain 15% power, an MSD ignition system; 15% gain... etc...

However all three together will net you about a 20% gain in power. It is a question that has been pontificated by many on the various performance forums. All we know for sure is that the more performance enhancements you add the harder it is to make any gains.

Engines are funny things...

[Gary Diamond]

This is one of those things that has been on the back burner of my mind for some time.

Gary is correct about reprogramming, however, that is a dark art. Megasquirt may be a good answer, but I feel it would take a long time just to replicate the factory system first.

Russ.

Russ it seems that there is a lot of people selling reprogramed chips for there car computers to increase power, what if we can invite some here, if they can produce a chip for us, we win and they make a fortune, its a win, win

Gary Diamond

[Painless]

That's an option, Gary. The problem is that ECU re-chipping is going to need doing on a model by model and probably model year by model year basis. That's a lot of work.

I also fear that these people will only have knowledge of the vehicles favoured by the tuners.

The way I see it, the ECU will only enrich or lean to a certain percentage. We need to find ways to reduce fuel input that the ECU cannot see.

For example, if we reduced the fuel rail pressure and adjusted the O2 signals back to normal with an EFIE, the ECU would be none the wiser. There would possibly be a fuel rail pressure sensor we would also need to fool.

If a method such as the above could be made to work right, it would be a lot simpler in the long run.

Stu,

I have a suggestion for an experiment on your ZX2, seeing as it responded fairly well to the restriction. I would be interested in what results you would get by removing the restriction and redirecting the intake air so that your engine takes air from directly around the exhaust manifold. The point here is to get the intake air up to approx 200 F. This should have the same effect as the restriction in addition to improving the thermal efficiency of combustion.

Russ.

[daddymikey1975]

Russ,

My ZX2 has been running with an air estriction and no codes for over 1,000 miles.

My other car, threw a "Service Engine Soon" in about 10 minutes of air restriction.

I stopped the car and I removed the restriction.

We continued for about 80 miles with the code light on.

Strange enough, the car never got as high MPG as that trip.

The ECU seemed to remember the setting.

The next morning, I disconnected the battery, reset the code, and the car was as before, less MPG.

If the ECU cannot allow less than a certain gas restriction, we are all fooked!

Is there any way around it?


For example, are the ECU's able to run a car at 12,000 feet altitude?

There is MUCH less air in La Paz Bolivia than in Florida.

BoyntonStu

Stu.. may i suggest an experiment if one is possible..

(i'll start off with this disclaimer.. I don't know for sure if it's possible to test this theory, so don't flame me for a brainstorm HAHA)

is air FLOW the same or relative to DENSITY ??

on your ZX2 it's an 'older' designed car without all the over engineered electronics (such as Russ' cursed truck) you never did tell us what your 'other car' is..

What i propose is an experiment (Again, if it's possible) where we consider (or prove) the relation to density and flow.

My belief is that you have restricted the FLOW on your ZX2 and the computer has just assumed that your air filter is clogged up and somehow has allowed MPG increase (that's 100% confirmed).

This flow reduction (again, IMO) isn't synonimous with less density.

The vehicle's MAP sensor would determine density.. (hence absolute pressure) and the MAF sensor determines air flow.

I believe the ZX2's were 'pre-MAF' .. in Ford's time, they weren't very keen on MAF sensors.. however the O2 sensors could compensate for the reduced FLOW by detecting the extra fuel (loss of 'air') and adjusting accordingly.. I believe your specific situation is luck (with the computer)

On a newer vehicle, they've incorporated MAF sensors to 'see' how much air is flowing to more 'efficiently' adjust the A/F trims, or at the least, light a CEL when the dang air filter gets clogged up.. (hence the light when you restricted the air flow on your other car)...

what i propose is an experiment (if it's possible) to determine the relationship between air flow and air density.

don't ask me how we'd try it, because, as i said before, i'm just a brainstormer LOL...

just my .02
mike

[Painless]

We would need to know more about the zx2's electronics to fathom this further.

My truck does not have MAF, it uses a MAP and IAT sensor. Upon startup, before the engine turns over, the MAP is used to determine air pressure at equalisation with the outside air. When the engine is running, the intake air temp and manifold pressure are used to determine air / fuel requirements. Temp and pressure within a known volume (engine CC) should allow the computation.

I don't see how air restriction will allow fooling the ECU to think that air pressure is lower, surely such a determination woud need to be made before engine start when inside and outside air pressure is equal.

Its also possible that the restriction is simply operating like a block of wood under the gas pedal, by only allowing so much throttle depression.

All theory, of course.

[BoyntonStu]

Stu.. may i suggest an experiment if one is possible..

(i'll start off with this disclaimer.. I don't know for sure if it's possible to test this theory, so don't flame me for a brainstorm HAHA)

is air FLOW the same or relative to DENSITY ??

on your ZX2 it's an 'older' designed car without all the over engineered electronics (such as Russ' cursed truck) you never did tell us what your 'other car' is..

What i propose is an experiment (Again, if it's possible) where we consider (or prove) the relation to density and flow.

My belief is that you have restricted the FLOW on your ZX2 and the computer has just assumed that your air filter is clogged up and somehow has allowed MPG increase (that's 100% confirmed).

This flow reduction (again, IMO) isn't synonimous with less density.

The vehicle's MAP sensor would determine density.. (hence absolute pressure) and the MAF sensor determines air flow.

I believe the ZX2's were 'pre-MAF' .. in Ford's time, they weren't very keen on MAF sensors.. however the O2 sensors could compensate for the reduced FLOW by detecting the extra fuel (loss of 'air') and adjusting accordingly.. I believe your specific situation is luck (with the computer)

On a newer vehicle, they've incorporated MAF sensors to 'see' how much air is flowing to more 'efficiently' adjust the A/F trims, or at the least, light a CEL when the dang air filter gets clogged up.. (hence the light when you restricted the air flow on your other car)...

what i propose is an experiment (if it's possible) to determine the relationship between air flow and air density.

don't ask me how we'd try it, because, as i said before, i'm just a brainstormer LOL...

just my .02
mike

Mike,

AFAIK The ZX2 is equipped with all the modern ECU bells and whistles.

The other car is 2 years newer and I believe that I might have restricted the air too much when the light went on.

When you drive a car from sea level to the mile high city of Denver, what happens?

Put another way, when an athlete trained at sea level competes in Denver, what happens?

The air in Denver is thinner and the air pressure is lower.

Boiling Point, temperature at which the vapor pressure of a liquid slightly exceeds the pressure of the atmosphere above the liquid. At temperatures below the boiling point (b.p.), evaporation takes place only from the surface of the liquid; during boiling, vapor forms within the body of the liquid; and as the vapor bubbles rise through the liquid, they cause the turbulence and seething associated with boiling. If the liquid is a single substance or an azeotropic solution (a mixture that has a constant b.p.), it will continue to boil as heat is added without any rise in temperature; that is, boiling occurs at constant temperature regardless of the amount of heat applied to the liquid.

When the pressure on a liquid is increased, the b.p. goes up. Water at 1 atmosphere pressure (760 torr, or about 14.7 lb/sq in) boils at 100° C (212° F), but when the pressure is 218 atmospheres (165,000 torr, or 3200 lb/sq in), the b.p. reaches its maximum, 374° C (705° F). Above this temperature (the critical temperature of water), liquid water is identical to saturated steam. See Pressure.

If the pressure on a liquid is reduced, the b.p. is lowered. At higher elevations, where air pressure is less, water boils below 100° C. In Denver, Colorado, which is 1.6 km (1 mi) above sea level, the b.p. of water averages 94° C (201° F). When the pressure on a sample of water falls to 4.55 torr (0.088 lb/sq in), boiling occurs at 0° C (32° F), which is the normal freezing point.

Thinner air affects the MAP sensor.

Thinner air does not cool the heated sensing element as much as thicker sea level air would.

The ECU understands that if it supplies the same amount of gas as it would at sea level, the 14.7:1 ratio would become richer; say 14:1.

To compensate for the thinner air, the ECU cuts back the gas and the engine is happy again at 14.7:1 but with less power.

My ZX2 does not seem affected with the reduced power until it reaches 70 MPH. It will go faster, but with less acceleration.

My solution: Use a butterfly valve immediately after the air filter that will open automatically when the accelerator is pressed beyond a set point.

I bought a door lock solenoid and when the throttle cable reaches a certain position, a micro switch will fire the solenoid and open the butterfly.

When disengaged, the butterfly will spring back to its "closed" position.

The "Closed" position is somewhere between 25% and 50% restriction.

The "closed" position will be the point where the engine smoothly idles and where the best MPG is achieved.

I am working on it.


I hope that this explains it.


BoyntonStu

[daddymikey1975]

Stu.. it explains differences that air pressure has on boiling point of water. The real explanation I'm searching for is how altering the FLOW of air equates to 'simulating' an altered density of air. how is flow related to density??

i understand how air is thinner as altitude increases, etc. i'm just not sure how to wrap my mind around restricting flow = less density (as far as the computer knows)

I DID find this useful though.. I went to yahoo search and typed "how does a MAP sensor work" and ran across this on a page:

Function
The MAP sensor monitors pressure changes (vacuum) in the manifold. As the pressure changes, the voltage changes put out by the MAP sensor changes. The higher the vacuum or pressure is in the manifold, the lower the voltage put out by the MAP sensor. The voltage reading goes to the PCM, to tell the computer to advance or retard the ignition timing as needed.
Types
There are two types of MAP sensors. The typical MAP sensor senses pressure (vacuum) in the manifold. The second type of MAP sensor helps the PCM estimate air flow in addition to pressure changes in the manifold. This type of MAP sensor is found on vehicles with speed density fuel injection.

Seems as though you have the second type on your zx2

what type of car is the 'other car?'

and the excort had a much more basic electronics setup than Russ' truck. (for example)

it has everything needed to be 'emmisions compliant' and obd2 compliant, etc.. but there's DEFINITELY not much trickery involved like what russ ran into to make the computer (in your car) act how you want it to act.

Ford has always subscribed to the KISS philosophy with the electronics in their cars (i can attest to this first hand)

mike

[BoyntonStu]

Stu.. it explains differences that air pressure has on boiling point of water. The real explanation I'm searching for is how altering the FLOW of air equates to 'simulating' an altered density of air. how is flow related to density??

i understand how air is thinner as altitude increases, etc. i'm just not sure how to wrap my mind around restricting flow = less density (as far as the computer knows)

I DID find this useful though.. I went to yahoo search and typed "how does a MAP sensor work" and ran across this on a page:

Function
The MAP sensor monitors pressure changes (vacuum) in the manifold. As the pressure changes, the voltage changes put out by the MAP sensor changes. The higher the vacuum or pressure is in the manifold, the lower the voltage put out by the MAP sensor. The voltage reading goes to the PCM, to tell the computer to advance or retard the ignition timing as needed.
Types
There are two types of MAP sensors. The typical MAP sensor senses pressure (vacuum) in the manifold. The second type of MAP sensor helps the PCM estimate air flow in addition to pressure changes in the manifold. This type of MAP sensor is found on vehicles with speed density fuel injection.

Seems as though you have the second type on your zx2

what type of car is the 'other car?'

and the excort had a much more basic electronics setup than Russ' truck. (for example)

it has everything needed to be 'emmisions compliant' and obd2 compliant, etc.. but there's DEFINITELY not much trickery involved like what russ ran into to make the computer (in your car) act how you want it to act.

Ford has always subscribed to the KISS philosophy with the electronics in their cars (i can attest to this first hand)

mike


Mike,

Hot wire sensor (MAF)

A hot wire mass airflow sensor determines the mass of air flowing into the engine’s air intake system. The theory of operation of the hot wire mass airflow sensor is similar to that of the hot wire anemometer (which determines air velocity). The Buick motor division (GM) was the first car company to use the hot wire sensor. This is achieved by heating a wire with an electric current that is suspended in the engine’s air stream, not unlike a toaster wire. The wire's electrical resistance increases as the wire’s temperature increases, which limits electrical current flowing through the circuit. When air flows past the wire, the wire cools, decreasing its resistance, which in turn allows more current to flow through the circuit. As more current flows, the wire’s temperature increases until the resistance reaches equilibrium again. The amount of current required to maintain the wire’s temperature is directly proportional to the mass of air flowing past the wire. The integrated electronic circuit converts the measurement of current into a voltage signal which is sent to the ECU.

If air density increases due to pressure increase or temperature drop, but the air volume remains constant, the denser air will remove more heat from the wire indicating a higher mass airflow

=================

If the air is restricted, the cooling will be less.

The MAF is tricked into thinking that the air density is less.

The questions is whether or not our cars use a heated wire MAF?

I believe that the ZX2 uses a heated wire. (I cannot see a paddle)

I may be wrong.

Worth a 10 cent try?

BoyntonStu

[cully]

check out here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor

you also get a cold wire sensor The sensor is part of an oscillator circuit whose oscillation frequency changes with sensor inductance

[BoyntonStu]

check out here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor

you also get a cold wire sensor The sensor is part of an oscillator circuit whose oscillation frequency changes with sensor inductance

"you also get a cold wire sensor The sensor is part of an oscillator circuit whose oscillation frequency changes with sensor inductance"

How do we utilize this information?

BoyntonStu

[daddymikey1975]

"you also get a cold wire sensor The sensor is part of an oscillator circuit whose oscillation frequency changes with sensor inductance"

How do we utilize this information?

BoyntonStu

a "for sure" way to tell which type of sensor (if any) your ZX2 has is to post a photo ( i can identify one visully) OR look immediately behind your air cleaner. There shoud be an 'insert' in the plenum that's got a bit of 'heft' to it and a cloth mesh screen on the intake side. There should be approx. 4 - 6 wires running across and up and down. My perception is this is the hot wire type. I'm almost willing to bet you a nice tall one that your ZX2 doesn't have the MAF sensor. I believe your car has the second type of MAP sensor that's described in my earlier post.

to directly answer your question about the oscillation type MAF.. all we'd need is a high inductance coupled circuit (that can 'see') the oscillations.. perhaps on an Oscope even... we watch the waveforms as we drive around to gather data, then we can mimic what we would like the data to be sent to the computer (most likely with a 555 timer circuit or some thing similar)

the first step though, is to verify whether or not your escort even has a MAF sensor or not...

P.S. your description of flow vs. density was lacking, HOWEVER....what you DID describe does make sense that by reducing the FLOW it will in fact fool the MAF sensor. I still don't believe that by merely restricting the flow on a car without a MAF sensor that it'll fool the car into believing it's in Denver. (although i've been proven wrong before and i'm honestly not trying to get into a debate, just searching for the magical 'why' that my 6 yr old keeps pestering me with from time to time HAHA)

i hope this helps
mike

[crewdog]

Mike,

Hot wire sensor (MAF)

A hot wire mass airflow sensor determines the mass of air flowing into the engine’s air intake system. The theory of operation of the hot wire mass airflow sensor is similar to that of the hot wire anemometer (which determines air velocity). The Buick motor division (GM) was the first car company to use the hot wire sensor. This is achieved by heating a wire with an electric current that is suspended in the engine’s air stream, not unlike a toaster wire. The wire's electrical resistance increases as the wire’s temperature increases, which limits electrical current flowing through the circuit. When air flows past the wire, the wire cools, decreasing its resistance, which in turn allows more current to flow through the circuit. As more current flows, the wire’s temperature increases until the resistance reaches equilibrium again. The amount of current required to maintain the wire’s temperature is directly proportional to the mass of air flowing past the wire. The integrated electronic circuit converts the measurement of current into a voltage signal which is sent to the ECU.

If air density increases due to pressure increase or temperature drop, but the air volume remains constant, the denser air will remove more heat from the wire indicating a higher mass airflow

=================

If the air is restricted, the cooling will be less.

The MAF is tricked into thinking that the air density is less.

The questions is whether or not our cars use a heated wire MAF?

I believe that the ZX2 uses a heated wire. (I cannot see a paddle)

I may be wrong.

Worth a 10 cent try?

BoyntonStu

Ford does use the hot wire sensor. I have over 30 years of working on Fords.

crewdog

[daddymikey1975]

Mike,


If the air is restricted, the cooling will be less.

This is absolutely true :)

The MAF is tricked into thinking that the air density is less.

The MAP sensor is usually the one that's responsible for 'comparing' absolute pressure (density?)



BoyntonStu

the MAF doesn't care what the density of the air is. The only thing the MAF cares about is how much air is flowing into the engine. Doesn't matter if it's denver altitude or New Orleans.

All you've done (and it DOES work for you) is reduced the air going into the engine. The computer notices this and doesn't want to flood the motor by sending in the 'normal' amount of fuel for the 14.7:1 and thinks your air filter is all clogged up - as a result you're getting better MPG.

You still haven't 'fooled' the computer into thinking that you're in Denver :)

I got this from Wikipedia :



A manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP) is one of the sensors used in an internal combustion engine's electronic control system. Engines that use a MAP sensor are typically fuel injected. The manifold absolute pressure sensor provides instantaneous manifold pressure information to the engine's electronic control unit (ECU). This is necessary to calculate air density and determine the engine's air mass flow rate, which in turn is used to calculate the appropriate fuel flow. (See stoichiometry.)


(again, if I'm wrong, i'm wrong. But I believe Crewdog can attest to my claims here. I also have had my fair share of hitting my head under the hood of all types of cars for the last 15 years :) )

mike

[BoyntonStu]

the MAF doesn't care what the density of the air is. The only thing the MAF cares about is how much air is flowing into the engine. Doesn't matter if it's denver altitude or New Orleans.

All you've done (and it DOES work for you) is reduced the air going into the engine. The computer notices this and doesn't want to flood the motor by sending in the 'normal' amount of fuel for the 14.7:1 and thinks your air filter is all clogged up - as a result you're getting better MPG.

You still haven't 'fooled' the computer into thinking that you're in Denver :)

I got this from Wikipedia :



(again, if I'm wrong, i'm wrong. But I believe Crewdog can attest to my claims here. I also have had my fair share of hitting my head under the hood of all types of cars for the last 15 years :) )

mike

again, if I'm wrong, i'm wrong. Yes.

"the MAF doesn't care what the density of the air is. The only thing the MAF cares about is how much air is flowing into the engine."

Density = how much.

For example , consider these made up figures:

1 Liter of air with 500,000 molecules. Denver

1 Liter of air with 1,000,000 molecules. Sea Level

Same volume, different densities.

Different cooling capabilities.


BoyntonStu

[Painless]

Stu,

On a side note, are you interested in trying my hot air intake idea on your ford? I'm really keen to see how it reacts. If you can get the intake air in the 200 F and up range, this should aid fuel vaporisation as well as restricting intake volume.

Russ.

[BoyntonStu]

Stu,

On a side note, are you interested in trying my hot air intake idea on your ford? I'm really keen to see how it reacts. If you can get the intake air in the 200 F and up range, this should aid fuel vaporisation as well as restricting intake volume.

Russ.

Russ,

A few pictures would really help me decide.

AFAIK Hot air intake will retard timing.

Thanks,

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

I've made some mods to my air intake over the weekend, basically I ripped out the whole airbox, accordion hose and resonator box and replaced them with a piece of PVC pipe, a rubber flexible 90 degree pipe and a round air filter that fits nicely on the end. Its positioned to take air from behind the radiator, but I want to change it to take its feed from right above the exhaust manifold. Currently, I'm getting air about 15 F warmer than the outside temp but my goal is 200+ F.

I'm not sure how your air setup looks, but you just need to reroute or extend the intake down to the exhaust.

My theory is that the hot air will help to vapourise the gasoline, resulting in more thorough combustion.

[daddymikey1975]

again, if I'm wrong, i'm wrong. Yes.

"the MAF doesn't care what the density of the air is. The only thing the MAF cares about is how much air is flowing into the engine."

Density = how much.

For example , consider these made up figures:

1 Liter of air with 500,000 molecules. Denver

1 Liter of air with 1,000,000 molecules. Sea Level

Same volume, different densities.

Different cooling capabilities.


BoyntonStu

what was explained to me in school (again, i've forgotten most of that) is that density is how close together or far apart the molecules actually are.

therefore 1,000,000 molecules may take up 1 liter at sea level but in Denver it would require a larger container to contain the same number of molecules because their density (spacing apart) is farther (less)

a wad of cash containing ten $1 bills = 10 dollars at sea level or denver. How dense they are can be determined by how tightly packed they are in a wad. loosely they take up more space than folded 6 times.

am I still correct?

mike

[BoyntonStu]

what was explained to me in school (again, i've forgotten most of that) is that density is how close together or far apart the molecules actually are.

therefore 1,000,000 molecules may take up 1 liter at sea level but in Denver it would require a larger container to contain the same number of molecules because their density (spacing apart) is farther (less)

a wad of cash containing ten $1 bills = 10 dollars at sea level or denver. How dense they are can be determined by how tightly packed they are in a wad. loosely they take up more space than folded 6 times.

am I still correct?

mike

Ye.

therefore 1,000,000 molecules may take up 1 liter at sea level but in Denver it would require a larger container to contain the same number of molecules because their density (spacing apart) is farther (less)

Your 2,000 cc engine will pull in 2,000 cc both in Denver at at sea level.

In Denver the engine and your lungs will be starved for "normal" sea level air because the air up there is less dense.

BoyntonStu

[Gary Diamond]

Would preheating your fuel, increase MPG?

[daddymikey1975]

Ye.

BoyntonStu

ok, just checking. :D

[Stealth_NT]

This is one of those things that has been on the back burner of my mind for some time.

Gary is correct about reprogramming, however, that is a dark art. Megasquirt may be a good answer, but I feel it would take a long time just to replicate the factory system first.

Russ.

Yeah you can be sure of this, just for make run the megasquirt as the stock computer takes really a lot of time and maybe will need adjustements for a long time until u can say "now is working like the factory computer" from this point u can do whatever u want, the trouble is make it work in the place of the stock computer.