Please help me design my dry cell!

[dougie175]

After a few days of trying to work out what Im doing as far as hydrogen is concerned, I have decided to try and build myself a dry cell.

However I do need alot of help

I am going to build my cell around this design http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pHTAzUAWFno&feature=channel, it look very tidy, gives a large area for water and will be as compact as is possible as size is a big issue in my small european diesel engine bay! However I will be putting an input and output for hydrogen and water on either side of the cell as I believe this makes the cell more efficient?

The car I am wanting to install the kit on is a Peugeot 306 2.0 HDi diesel, I currently get around 50mpg from this engine so it is quite economical already but like everyone I want to get as many mpg as possible!

1. How much hydrogen should I be looking to produce a minute for maximum mpg gains from a 2.0 diesel engine?

2. how many stainless plates do I want to use for an engine of this size? and what configaration is the best to put them in?

3. roughly what size plates should I have cut? I want to keep the unit as compact as possible, without compramising on hydrogen production.

4. what is the best plate design? is it just a case of having flat plates sanded down with 2 holes where the ports are for water going in and gas coming out like in the video above?

5. do I require a bubbler? I have seen some videos of people using the resevoir as the bubbler which seems a great idea to me.

6. do I require a PWM?

7. Do I require any other equipment other than the cell and a resevoir if i can use the resevoir as a bubbler? My car does have any o2 sensors and I would like to keep the setup as simple as possible

Sorry for so many questions Im just trying to make sure I get it right this time! Any more advice anyone has for me please feel free to share it thank you

[alpha-dog]

Read everything on this site and others like it. Research is the most important thing you can do right now. You'll find the answers to your questions here. Don't be afraid to think outside the box.

[dougie175]

Im not really in a position where I am knowledgeable or understand enough about hydrogen and electrolosis to be able to think outside the box. I have read a huge amount already on this subject, however the problem comes in that alot of what I have read I dont understand. Im not going to be the person who comes up with anything new or amazing for you guys but I was here asking for your help.

Things such as I believe im supposed to be aiming for 1 litre of hydrogen per litre of engine capasity per minute. Is this the same for a smaller engined diesel rather than a bigger engined american petrol?

The reason I have asked rather than just going on the answers already on the forum is that im trying to ask quite spesific questions that just relate to my own vehicle which is probably vastly different to the type of engines most of you are running, however I apprechiate your welth of knowledge and feel you will have a better idea eactly what requirements I should be following to achieve what I am wanting to do.

Please help, thanks

[Painless]

Dougie,

To tackle your questions one at a time:



1. How much hydrogen should I be looking to produce a minute for maximum mpg gains from a 2.0 diesel engine?

There is no proven formula for this, but it has been found that 1 LPM or HHO for each litre of engine capacity is a good place to start.



2. how many stainless plates do I want to use for an engine of this size? and what configaration is the best to put them in?

Based upon my answer to question 1, you should be shooting for 2 LPM or HHO for your 2 litre diesel. Think in terms of surface area and not number of plates. I've successfully built a dry cell using 25 plates that are 3" x 2" and produced 2.33 LPM at 5.4 MMW efficiency. This was a 5 neutral configuration.



3. roughly what size plates should I have cut? I want to keep the unit as compact as possible, without compramising on hydrogen production.

In my own opinion, smaller plates are more efficient than larger plates (when both setups provide the SAME surface area!). I would personally recommend a minimum of 25 plates in the 4" x 3" size area, but if you can accomodate larger ones then do so!



4. what is the best plate design? is it just a case of having flat plates sanded down with 2 holes where the ports are for water going in and gas coming out like in the video above?

A dry cell is the best design hands down in my opinion. Plate prep is important, cross sand your plates with coarse grit paper and wash them in distilled water. Holes top and bottom are recommended. Also, be sure to run your newly built generator in on a test bench for 3 or 4 days at low amps before using in your vehicle. You should also strip down your cell and inspect / clean it after the run in period.



5. do I require a bubbler? I have seen some videos of people using the resevoir as the bubbler which seems a great idea to me.

Using the reservoir as a bubbler is a terrible idea, if you are using a caustic base electrolyte, KOH (potassium hydroxide) or NaOH (sodium hydroxide), you MUST employ a means of removing any catalyst from the HHO before it gets into your engine and sits down for a nice meal with your aluminium parts. Check my cleansing bubbler mk2 design on my website (see my sig).



6. do I require a PWM?

Do you require one? No.

Are they a good thing to have? Yes.

Why? A PWM will allow you to use a maximum strength electrolyte in your cell to increase efficiency and provide some freezing protection, yet control the amp flow through your cell. A PWM effectively allows you to limit the amount of current being used by your cell and to control the effects of your cell warming and drawing more current.



7. Do I require any other equipment other than the cell and a resevoir if i can use the resevoir as a bubbler? My car does have any o2 sensors and I would like to keep the setup as simple as possible

Being a diesel, I would start with just introducing the HHO and monitor for results. You *WILL* need a cleansing bubbler, as I already mentioned[/quote]. You will also need to inject your HHO before the turbo charger.

Hope this helps,

Russ.

[dougie175]

Fantastic reply Russ thank you so much youve basically given me all the answers I need!

a 25 plate design sounds beast but you seem to know your stuff! I should be able to go slightly bigger than 4x3, but basically 25 plates and as much bigger than 4x3 as I can achieve is the best for me.

I will take a look at your website now and get to work making myself a cleansing bubbler, not really keen on the idea of killing my engine!

I will also look into a PWM then when I have finished and Cell.

Thanks again for taking your time to help me, much apprechiated

[Gary Diamond]

Dougie,

To tackle your questions one at a time:



There is no proven formula for this, but it has been found that 1 LPM or HHO for each litre of engine capacity is a good place to start.



Based upon my answer to question 1, you should be shooting for 2 LPM or HHO for your 2 litre diesel. Think in terms of surface area and not number of plates. I've successfully built a dry cell using 25 plates that are 3" x 2" and produced 2.33 LPM at 5.4 MMW efficiency. This was a 5 neutral configuration.



In my own opinion, smaller plates are more efficient than larger plates (when both setups provide the SAME surface area!). I would personally recommend a minimum of 25 plates in the 4" x 3" size area, but if you can accomodate larger ones then do so!



A dry cell is the best design hands down in my opinion. Plate prep is important, cross sand your plates with coarse grit paper and wash them in distilled water. Holes top and bottom are recommended. Also, be sure to run your newly built generator in on a test bench for 3 or 4 days at low amps before using in your vehicle. You should also strip down your cell and inspect / clean it after the run in period.



Using the reservoir as a bubbler is a terrible idea, if you are using a caustic base electrolyte, KOH (potassium hydroxide) or NaOH (sodium hydroxide), you MUST employ a means of removing any catalyst from the HHO before it gets into your engine and sits down for a nice meal with your aluminium parts. Check my cleansing bubbler mk2 design on my website (see my sig).



Do you require one? No.

Are they a good thing to have? Yes.

Why? A PWM will allow you to use a maximum strength electrolyte in your cell to increase efficiency and provide some freezing protection, yet control the amp flow through your cell. A PWM effectively allows you to limit the amount of current being used by your cell and to control the effects of your cell warming and drawing more current.



Being a diesel, I would start with just introducing the HHO and monitor for results. You *WILL* need a cleansing bubbler, as I already mentioned. You will also need to inject your HHO before the turbo charger.

Hope this helps,

Russ.[/QUOTE]

I saw your idea about cleaning up the HHO before the output running it through a coil and a cooler, i like it, did you ever do a test with and with out a condenser, to see if this now gives you a "real" HHO output.

I think some of the big claims of mmw are really steam plus HHO, and this would be the only way to measure one liter in one minute, but perhaps using even ice cubes in the cooler (water temp would be the same for everyone) because now everyone will be playing with the same deck of cards

Gary Diamond

[Painless]

. You will also need to inject your HHO before the turbo charger.

Hope this helps,

Russ.

I saw your idea about cleaning up the HHO before the output running it through a coil and a cooler, i like it, did you ever do a test with and with out a condenser, to see if this now gives you a "real" HHO output.

I think some of the big claims of mmw are really steam plus HHO, and this would be the only way to measure one liter in one minute, but perhaps using even ice cubes in the cooler (water temp would be the same for everyone) because now everyone will be playing with the same deck of cards

Gary Diamond[/quote]

Gary,

I've yet to use the Mk2 cleansing bubbler in anger, but have been using my Mk1 design for some time. Comparing the output directly from the reservoir with the output of the bubbler is basically a white mist compared to completely invisible gas.

Russ.

[Gary Diamond]

I saw your idea about cleaning up the HHO before the output running it through a coil and a cooler, i like it, did you ever do a test with and with out a condenser, to see if this now gives you a "real" HHO output.

I think some of the big claims of mmw are really steam plus HHO, and this would be the only way to measure one liter in one minute, but perhaps using even ice cubes in the cooler (water temp would be the same for everyone) because now everyone will be playing with the same deck of cards

Gary Diamond

Gary,

I've yet to use the Mk2 cleansing bubbler in anger, but have been using my Mk1 design for some time. Comparing the output directly from the reservoir with the output of the bubbler is basically a white mist compared to completely invisible gas.

Russ.[/QUOTE]

What's your guess what the white mist is? if its water then its comming from steam and that's going to vary from cell design to cell design room temp.etc i think we need to know how its throwing our mmw readings off, maybe it doesn't affect our readings at all, maybe we may be in for a surprise.

My point, is not to try and prove one guys cell is better then the other, my point is to remove a false reading every time we check out mmw

Thanks Russ for reading my post
Gary Diamond

[Painless]

Gary,

I believe the white mist to be a mixture of water vapour and KOH.

The boiling point of KOH is supposedly 140 F. My cell typically runs cooler than that, so I wonder if the KOH is getting transported out of the cell by some other means.

Russ.

[H2OPWR]

Gary,


What's your guess what the white mist is? if its water then its comming from steam and that's going to vary from cell design to cell design room temp.etc i think we need to know how its throwing our mmw readings off, maybe it doesn't affect our readings at all, maybe we may be in for a surprise.

My point, is not to try and prove one guys cell is better then the other, my point is to remove a false reading every time we check out mmw

Thanks Russ for reading my post
Gary Diamond

I test in a very cold climate and I can tell you for sure and without a doubt that the white mist is not always steam. It can be steam if coming from a hot cell but I have seen it many times at very cold gas temps. I have seen it in abundance with my cell and 40 degree water and gas temps before the bubbler. It is water vapor in one form or another. I beleive as Russ beleives that it does carry some KOH in the mist. The key will be using a good enough bubbler to remove it.

Larry

[Q-Hack!]

Steam, as one normally thinks of it, comes from hot water. Water vapor itself is actually invisible, and it's only when it cools down a bit and starts to condense into tiny droplets that you can see it. Next time you have the kettle boiling, take a close look near the spout. You'll see nothing because the water vapor is transparent. A little farther out, the vapor cools enough to form droplets and that's what you see as ''steam."

The same thing happens with clouds. Water vapor in the air is invisible, but if it cools off and forms small water droplets you see the water as a cloud. The droplets of water from HHO are visible when they leave the generator but then evaporate into the air, becoming invisible. The bottom line then is ''if you can see it, it's water in liquid form" -- perhaps in tiny droplets, but liquid nonetheless.

Whether you call it steam or water vapor really doesn't matter, you can have the visible form of water without boiling.