MMW and Production and a Question?

[BoyntonStu]

Which would be more useful in your car?

A> 5.5 MMW 1 Liter in 30 seconds

B> 7.0 MMW 1 Liter in 45 seconds.


My point is that we are attempting to produce gas and not MMW.

OTOH We do not want to produce steam that increases the output and fools the MMW calculation to appear higher than it is.

Perhaps MMW measured at 110*F or less, should be the standard.

Let's assume that steam is produced.


How do we measure the 'purity' of Hydroxy?

Maybe the color or a Hydroxy torch flame would tell us?


BoyntonStu

[H2OPWR]

A TRUE 7 MMW is better. Let's not forget that it takes horsepower from our engine to make the electricity that makes HHO.

[Gary Diamond]

Which would be more useful in your car?

A> 5.5 MMW 1 Liter in 30 seconds

B> 7.0 MMW 1 Liter in 45 seconds.


My point is that we are attempting to produce gas and not MMW.

OTOH We do not want to produce steam that increases the output and fools the MMW calculation to appear higher than it is.

Perhaps MMW measured at 110*F or less, should be the standard.

Let's assume that steam is produced.


How do we measure the 'purity' of Hydroxy?

Maybe the color or a Hydroxy torch flame would tell us?


BoyntonStu

I thought all the steam is stripped off in the bubbler

[Q-Hack!]

How do we measure the 'purity' of Hydroxy?

Maybe the color or a Hydroxy torch flame would tell us?

BoyntonStu

I use a brown paper bag to see if I have any moisture in the gas prior to injecting into the engine. I like to think of it as the poor man's purity test. Another good choice for this are the brown paper napkins from KFC. They are designed to soak up grease, but they change to a darker brown when wet. If you see moisture on the napkin then it isn't safe for your engine yet.

Granted this doesn't test for things like carbon dioxide or chlorine gas, but it is the best I have found so far with NaOH or KOH.

[H2OPWR]

I thought all the steam is stripped off in the bubbler

Gary, Most of the bubbles in the bubbler are fairly large. Only the outside edge comes into contact with the bubbler water. You can not see pure HHO. It is oderless and colorless. If you can see the gas there is something in it. Usually water vapor, steam, or KOH. The actual gas temp should be measured after the bubbles exit the bubbler to make sure that there is no steam. Steam is easy to make and does not help you at all.

Larry

[Painless]

MMW is nonetheless important, as Larry pointed out, considering the HP used to create the electricity.

A true MMW is also important, but the entire picture must be brought into focus. The following standard would be revealing of a cells true nature:

Test 1: MMW run at cold start.

Test 2: MMW run at 110 F *PLATE* temperature.

Test 3: MMW run after one hour of non-stop runtime from cold.

Each test should state the plate temperature (measured with a laser thermometer at the top of the plates) and the electrolyte temperature.

Russ.

[SmartScarecrow]

Which would be more useful in your car?

A> 5.5 MMW 1 Liter in 30 seconds

B> 7.0 MMW 1 Liter in 45 seconds.


My point is that we are attempting to produce gas and not MMW.

OTOH We do not want to produce steam that increases the output and fools the MMW calculation to appear higher than it is.

Perhaps MMW measured at 110*F or less, should be the standard.

Let's assume that steam is produced.


How do we measure the 'purity' of Hydroxy?

Maybe the color or a Hydroxy torch flame would tell us?


BoyntonStu


there is only a finite amount of electricity available from the charging system ... and the draw on the engine from the alternator increases as your hydroxy generator pulls more power ... so if you can devise a piece of equipment that returns more fuel for the amount of energy you put in, will in the end work better for you ...

so the best device would be the one that puts out just enough fuel to produce the desirable effect without creating more load on your system than you can afford to provide ...

[Gary Diamond]

there is only a finite amount of electricity available from the charging system ... and the draw on the engine from the alternator increases as your hydroxy generator pulls more power ... so if you can devise a piece of equipment that returns more fuel for the amount of energy you put in, will in the end work better for you ...

so the best device would be the one that puts out just enough fuel to produce the desirable effect without creating more load on your system than you can afford to provide ...

Good point, why **** away more then you need.

You are draining the alternater, which is using more fuel, very good point.

Question, how do you measure how much HHO is need by the engine?

[Q-Hack!]

Question, how do you measure how much HHO is need by the engine?

Ah, yes! This very question has been debated many times on the forums... I heard Zerofosilfuel once say that you need a minimum of 1-2 Litters per minute for every cubic inch of engine. I suspect he may be correct, but others would disagree.

[alpha-dog]

Good point, why **** away more then you need.

You are draining the alternater, which is using more fuel, very good point.

Question, how do you measure how much HHO is need by the engine?

You know, its a rule of thumb - 1 liter of gas to 1 liter of engine. There is a lot of debate about this, but for my hemi I'll be shooting for 5~6Lpm.
Russ

P. S. Everyone I tell this to wishes me luck or thanks I'm crazy

[SmartScarecrow]

Good point, why **** away more then you need.

You are draining the alternater, which is using more fuel, very good point.

Question, how do you measure how much HHO is need by the engine?



many have worked very hard to try to quantify ... at this point, we have only some very general guidelines that should not be considered gospel ...

based on tests conducted on static engines at static RPM's where there was no emission control equipment, sensors, or computers getting in the way, it was determined that anywhere from a 20% to 30% increase in run time can be achieved with a gasoline engine if 1 lpm of hydroxy gas is applied per 1000cc of engine displacement ... some results were seen with as little as 250cc of hydroxy per minute per 1000cc of displacement ... the value of trying to exceed 1 lpm per 1000cc of engine displacement could not be proven ... to run an engine on 100% hydroxy requires about 50 lpm per 1000cc of engine displacement ...

I know its not as definitive as you would like ... what most seem to want to hear is that a system has been tested on an engine similar to what they plan to use ... everyone would like some guarantee or formula to use that will achieve results 100% of the time ... but the fact is, we aint there yet ... but every person who puts one of these things under the hood of their car, works with it, tweaks it, and takes good notes, helps us get that much closer ...

[redrat100]

7.0 MMW.

In general most steam makers have a MMW in the 4's to 5's even when measuring the "Smoky HHO"

I agree that a standard needs to be adopted, however I seriously doubt one will any time soon.

Also most testers are not going to buy the equipment needed to test all the different variables and why should they. If it is not something they plan to take to market, why spend the money just to be able to say I make X.XXMMW..... other than their own curiosity or ego.
Trying to claim the best design is plain stupid. There will always be one better, at least to fit a specific need.
One size does not fit all, and there is more than one way to skin a cat.

The higher MMW the better. Less current draw on the car is better. They key to this process is efficiency in all respects. Electrical efficiency: measure MMW before or after a PWM and/or pump? Do you want system MMW or just cell MMW? I would argue just cell. Mechanical efficiency: gas leaks will kill MMW- duh! Chemical efficiency: Dry out your gas before measuring output. I am building a Painless condenser/bubbler. By the way steam is a function of, not only water temperature, but also ambient air temperature and humidity. A boiling tea kettle will make less steam in the desert than in the arctic but the amount of water vapor produced will be close to the same.

[Q-Hack!]

Ah, yes! This very question has been debated many times on the forums... I heard Zerofosilfuel once say that you need a minimum of 1-2 Litters per minute for every cubic inch of engine. I suspect he may be correct, but others would disagree.

You know I think I committed a blunder here... 1 Litter for every cubic inch would be a tremendous amount of HHO... I meant 1 Litter of HHO for every 1 Litter of engine.

:eek:

[BoyntonStu]

there is only a finite amount of electricity available from the charging system ... and the draw on the engine from the alternator increases as your hydroxy generator pulls more power ... so if you can devise a piece of equipment that returns more fuel for the amount of energy you put in, will in the end work better for you ...

so the best device would be the one that puts out just enough fuel to produce the desirable effect without creating more load on your system than you can afford to provide ...

I agree, however let's quantify:

Given: 2 Generators to produce 2 LPM for a 2,000 CC engine.

#1 - 5 MMW 25 Amps

#2 - 10 MMW 12.5 Amps


The difference is 13.5 Volts at 12.5 A or 169 Watts

To generate the 169 Watts differential you would use 169/746 HP

That is a measly 0.22 HP.

How much effort, time, and expense are you going to use to save 0.22 HP.

If you wasted 0.22 HP what MPG loss would you suffer?


My point is that if you have a reliable, inexpensive, easy to make cell that can do 5 MMW or better, you can relax a bit.


To my knowledge there is nothing out there as simple to make, nor as compact as an Amoeba Cell.

6x6 plates with a single 1/4" hole, 5.5 x 5.5 x .375 flange gaskets, 6-32 cheap SS screws and nuts, and all the plate holes line up except for one end input plate.

Place a 1/4" rod into a hole on a table and just stack the 14 plates and gaskets onto the rod. Auto alignment.

1,2,3.

BTW I am currently using inner tube gasket material. 0.050".

If, as in the past, when I go to 0.025 - 0.030 spacings, the MMW will definitely increase.

Hey! I might even save 1/10th of a HP. Wow!

My advice:

Keep your eye on the BIG picture and don't go for the second decimal point in improvement. It ain't worth it.

BoyntonStu