Basic Question Regarding HHO and Welding

[diadicic]

Can HHO be use for Welding Aluminum? If so, will the weld be stronger or weaker then Oxy/Acy or ark methods of welding.

Dominic

[SmartScarecrow]

Can HHO be use for Welding Aluminum? If so, will the weld be stronger or weaker then Oxy/Acy or ark methods of welding.

Dominic

I have tried it but not done too well ... but I do not claim to be a welder ... my skills that area are really, really poor ... control of the tip is a problem with HHO ... its hard to get the tip of the flame to spread ... it seems to form a column with a sharp tip that makes it suitable to cutting, but less so for welding ... if you had asked if you CUT aluminum, I would have easily said, you betcha !!! like a hot knife through butter ...

I did some experimentation with mixing gases that were promising ... if I were to try to weld aluminum, I think I might play with an argon mix ... that seemed to drop the tip temperature and allowed it to spread out a bit ... I think that might be the key ...

needless to say, there is not a whole lot of data out there on this ... if you are up to it, know what you are doing, and could experiment some, there are many who would be interested in what an experienced welder has to say about methods and materials ...

[Q-Hack!]

The flame temperature difference between Oxy/Acy and HHO is less than 100 degrees F.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_flame_temperature

Welding with either is possible, but is a bit of an art form.

[diadicic]

SmartScarecrow,

If this is a stupid question, sorry I don't mean it to be.
When you tried to weld the aluminum, did you use an aluminum welding flux?

Dom

[SmartScarecrow]

SmartScarecrow,

If this is a stupid question, sorry I don't mean it to be.
When you tried to weld the aluminum, did you use an aluminum welding flux?

Dom

no question is stupider than I am when it comes to this topic ... but yes, I used the stuff the guy I know at the garage I do business with gave me ... there was a rod and some goop he provided ... he gave me a quick demonstration of how he does with with his gear ... it looked easy enough so I was pretty ****y when I tried it ... well, lets just say I ended up with a puddle of Aluminum instead of two piece bonded properly the way he did it ...

but, I am a computer nerd, not a welder ... I probably screwed it up due to poor technique, not a deficiency in the hydroxy gas ... I would love to see some videos on YouTube done by someone who knows what they are doing using the HHO torch ... I am very impressed with its over all capabilities and think it has great potential ... but I am such a putz at exploiting that potential that I would really like to see it done properly so I might learn something ...

there is a lot I do know about this ... but its sort of the nuts and bolts side of things ...

I know that you want to be producing about 2-3 lpm of gas to use a tip with a .020 dia orifice ... if you get it up to about 3-5 lpm flow rate, you can go as high as a .035 tip ... if you need a tip in the .050 to .065 range, you are going to have to build one hell of a big device and crank out about 7-10 lpm of gas ...

I can also tell you that you want a double bubbler setup ... one bubbler should be within maybe 5-10 feet of work ... you might try different fluids in this final bubbler ... I tried turpentine, alcohol, xylene and mineral oil ... all works, each had a slightly different effect ... for what you have planned, I think the mineral oil would serve well, but that is not written in stone ...

if you are going to produce a flash back, it will be when you turn off your torch ... a very positive on/off valve near the tip is key ... I used a brass ball valve and this seemed to work well for me ... if you are using professional welding setup, suspect will work just as well ...

too little gas flow for the size tip you are using is a sure way to get a flash back ... it is the velocity of the gas exiting the tip that keeps the hydroxy from burning right back to your bubbler ... but strangely enough, you can also have problems if you give it too much velocity ... hard to keep the torch lit if you do that ... it will blow itself out ...

[SmartScarecrow]

The flame temperature difference between Oxy/Acy and HHO is less than 100 degrees F.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_flame_temperature

Welding with either is possible, but is a bit of an art form.

I will argue that one ... I am able to turn Tungsten liquid, and then vaporize it using the HHO torch ... my understanding is that this requires anywhere from 6000F to 10000F ... I dont think you can do that with oxy/acetylene ...

the interesting thing is that if you point the flame to a pool of water, the water will not heat up ... but point it at anything else, and the temperature of that material is heated until it reaches its boiling point, then the HHO dont seem to add any additional heat ...

I have tried this with aluminum, copper, lead, iron, nickel and tungsten ... its really quite fascinating to play with ... in each case, the material reaches its boiling point an no hotter ...

now I must admit, I do not have experience working with other cutting/welding gases ... so I could be seeing something that is perfectly normal and interpreting it as being unusual ...

but I do think you could easily demonstrate that the hydroxy torch is capable of much higher max temperatures than oxy/acetylene

[Q-Hack!]

I will argue that one ... I am able to turn Tungsten liquid, and then vaporize it using the HHO torch ... my understanding is that this requires anywhere from 6000F to 10000F ... I dont think you can do that with oxy/acetylene ...

the interesting thing is that if you point the flame to a pool of water, the water will not heat up ... but point it at anything else, and the temperature of that material is heated until it reaches its boiling point, then the HHO dont seem to add any additional heat ...

I have tried this with aluminum, copper, lead, iron, nickel and tungsten ... its really quite fascinating to play with ... in each case, the material reaches its boiling point an no hotter ...

now I must admit, I do not have experience working with other cutting/welding gases ... so I could be seeing something that is perfectly normal and interpreting it as being unusual ...

but I do think you could easily demonstrate that the hydroxy torch is capable of much higher max temperatures than oxy/acetylene

The reason you see a difference to due to the nature of the flame itself. When we talk about adiabatic flame temperature we are referring to perfect world scenarios. ie, adiabatic means without losing heat. You were correct in thinking that your tip has a lot to do with how the welding process works. There are four basic flame types:

premixed laminar - the laser beam of flame (HHO)
diffusion laminar - Most gas welding falls in this realm
premixed turbulent - natural gas for home heating
diffusion turbulent - campfire

Premixed refers to the fuel and oxidizer being mixed before combustion. Laminar refers to flame shape. If you were to take two pictures of the flame both pics would look exactly the same.

Some would say that Oxy/Acy is actually a premixed laminar, but in reality it is actually in a state between diffusion and premixed. The fuel and oxidizer are still mixing when it is being combusted. As a result the actual heat available gets diffused a bit more than a true premixed laminar flame.

[gashead]

Can HHO be use for Welding Aluminum? If so, will the weld be stronger or weaker then Oxy/Acy or ark methods of welding.

Dominic

i am a certified welder, if you want to weld aluminum you really need a tig welder i cant see it happening with hho and oxy/acy does not work well at all, you will end up with a distorted blob of aluminum.

[Q-Hack!]

i am a certified welder, if you want to weld aluminum you really need a tig welder i cant see it happening with hho and oxy/acy does not work well at all, you will end up with a distorted blob of aluminum.

I would agree with this for those who are wanting to begin... However I have watched my brother weld aluminium with an oxy/acy torch. Granted they were both 1/2 inch thick chunks of aluminium plating. I do remember him complaining that I didn't own a tig welder though. :rolleyes: As I understand it, the inert gas is what is needed for a good weld on aluminium. Keeps it from oxidizing as it welds.

Personally I prefer stick welding, but then I don't need aluminium welded all that often.

[Painless]

I would agree with this for those who are wanting to begin... However I have watched my brother weld aluminium with an oxy/acy torch. Granted they were both 1/2 inch thick chunks of aluminium plating. I do remember him complaining that I didn't own a tig welder though. :rolleyes: As I understand it, the inert gas is what is needed for a good weld on aluminium. Keeps it from oxidizing as it welds.

Personally I prefer stick welding, but then I don't need aluminium welded all that often.

Surely some more gorilla glue will do the job?

[gashead]

I would agree with this for those who are wanting to begin... However I have watched my brother weld aluminium with an oxy/acy torch. Granted they were both 1/2 inch thick chunks of aluminium plating. I do remember him complaining that I didn't own a tig welder though. :rolleyes: As I understand it, the inert gas is what is needed for a good weld on aluminium. Keeps it from oxidizing as it welds.

Personally I prefer stick welding, but then I don't need aluminium welded all that often.

you can use the hho to preheat the aluminum for tig welding, if you try to tig weld anything over 1/4 inch it needs to be preheated anyways, unless you have a 200 amp watercooled tig welder, ( mega bucks )

[Q-Hack!]

Surely some more gorilla glue will do the job?

I know that you were joking, but in reality... I have done stranger things. :D

[Painless]

I know that you were joking, but in reality... I have done stranger things. :D

It's amazing what will 'stick' with you :)

[diadicic]

i am a certified welder, if you want to weld aluminum you really need a tig welder i cant see it happening with hho and oxy/acy does not work well at all, you will end up with a distorted blob of aluminum.


Most Airplanes and Fuel tanks are still Gas Welded. Check this guy out.
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/welding_aluminum_body_sheet.php