Q-Hack's Test

[Q-Hack!]

Figured I would start my own thread instead of always talking on everybody elses...

Since my current VSPB (zerofosilfuel design) cell in my Saturn Vue isn't producing enough for me, I figured I would attempt a shot at a more efficient cell design. There have been lots of little gems scattered throughout the hhoforums that I want to try. So here we go.

Early on, I attempted using AgNO3 or Silver Nitrate as an electrolyte. For those who don't know , AgNO3 only requires .7 volts to start producing HHO instead of the 1.69 required by NaOH or 1.67 for KOH. Back then I was using a modified Smack's design for testing and noticed that I was getting large particulate in the aqueous solution (similar to the brown gunk with baking soda). It also gave the plates a tarnished look to them. I only ran the test for 20 minutes with this setup, so I have no idea how well it would have worked in the long run. One thing I did notice: The longer it ran the more efficient it became. May have something to do with the tarnish on the plates, but I really wasn't being scientific about the process, so who knows.

[Q-Hack!]

My current plan is to build a single stack dry cell with 14 unconnected plates +||||||||||||||- This will give me about .93 volts per plate gap in my Saturn and about .8 volts on my bench test. I want to keep my current at under 20 amps. I am going to use the left over plates that I bought for my VSPB which are 2” X 6” (note: I do have enough wall switch plates to build this, but getting them to seal is a real pain in the assets.) Since this is just for testing, I figure that if it works I can always spend the money later on for custom 8” X 8” plates. My eventual goal is for a cell that can produce 7 LPM @ 20 amps. Lofty goal, I know.

Spent the day cutting the corners off my plates and cutting out gaskets from 40 mil. shower pan liner that I bought at Lowes.

[Q-Hack!]

One of those little gems that I picked up here was to fill the holes in the plates with some form of dielectric and then sand/drill it out leaving a small amount around the inside edge of the hole. The idea being that it should eliminate any stray currents left by exposed edges. Shane Jackson was doing this with some form of dental resin. Not being a dentist myself, I decided to try Gorilla glue instead. Currently I have no idea how well it will stand up to electrolysis, but it does stick to 316L stainless steel pretty well. Now... If I could just drill straight.

[H2OPWR]

One of those little gems that I picked up here was to fill the holes in the plates with some form of dielectric and then sand/drill it out leaving a small amount around the inside edge of the hole. The idea being that it should eliminate any stray currents left by exposed edges. Shane Jackson was doing this with some form of dental resin. Not being a dentist myself, I decided to try Gorilla glue instead. Currently I have no idea how well it will stand up to electrolysis, but it does stick to 316L stainless steel pretty well. Now... If I could just drill straight.

Good Luck, I hope it works for you. The silver nitrate has my interest. Too bad it costs so much money. The thing that I do not know is how much it takes as an electrolite.

[hg2]

Q-hack,You 14 plate configuration +nnnnnnnnnnnn- may run low on amps but the output would be very low even with large plates.It would be better to use 13 plates configured -nnnnn+nnnnn- this would be much more efficient.We're kinda bound by a 2-2.5 volt range for optimum production.

You may have to bench test the cell using various concentrations of e-lyte to get an amp draw that's compatible with your viehicles alternator.

[coffeeachiever]

Q-hack,You 14 plate configuration +nnnnnnnnnnnn- may run low on amps but the output would be very low even with large plates.It would be better to use 13 plates configured -nnnnn+nnnnn- this would be much more efficient.We're kinda bound by a 2-2.5 volt range for optimum production.

You may have to bench test the cell using various concentrations of e-lyte to get an amp draw that's compatible with your viehicles alternator.

If the silver nitrate starts producing @ .7 volts, isn't it possible to get optimum production at just over a volt? I'd very much like to see what the possibilities are with that.

[Painless]

If the silver nitrate starts producing @ .7 volts, isn't it possible to get optimum production at just over a volt? I'd very much like to see what the possibilities are with that.

From my own experiments, when you use a plate voltage close to the minimum for electrolysis, it's hard to pull amps for production. Seems the only way is more surface area. However, there is very little heat and a good MMW, usually.

[Q-Hack!]

Like I said, this is a test cell. I will be starting with the above plate setup, however It may not be the final design. One of the things I want to find out is what is the best voltage that gives me a good balance between efficiency and heat. I came up with using the plate setup by thinking that I would need slightly more voltage than the minimum required. It is just a ratio of number of plate gaps versus amount of voltage difference between minimum and best efficiency.

2.3v ~ 6 gaps
____________
.9v ~ 15 gaps

[Q-Hack!]

Got the initial build up ready... Now I need to take it all apart and seal the holes in the plates with the Gorilla glue.

[Q-Hack!]

This is going to take a few days longer than I would like... Oh, well...

Here I am starting the glueing process... We won't talk about how upset the wife is about me using the living room coffee table. :rolleyes:

It's the flattest surface I have... honest.

[Q-Hack!]

After the first plates are finished glueing, I am happy with all but one... Think I will clean this one off and redo it.

[SmartScarecrow]

I certainly admire your tenacity and do not wish to discourage you ... so take my reply with a grain of salt and press on, noble knight ... Dulcinea awaits her champion ...

BUT, if your benchmark for success is 7 lpm on 13.5v @ 20 amps, you are setting yourself up to be disappointed and potentially discouraged ...

The 2v per plate gap most shoot for is based on the poor conductivity of stainless steel. Tests with nickel plates have shown that much lower per gap voltages might be possible with different alloys. But so far, everything we have tried seems to quickly disintegrate due to the rather violent reaction. So we are pretty much stuck with stainless for time being.

Some tests have shown that a sandwich material with a copper core and stainless on both sides might be desirable ... I am aware of experiments with such material that are going on right now and the results look pretty interesting ... but you don't even want to know what it cost in time and money to bond 2 pieces of 26 gauge 316L to a core of copper ... as one of a kinds, the 6" x 6" plates would have to sell in the $150 each price range to make it interesting to produce them in quantity ... OUCH !!!

So we are married to Stainless, preferably 316L until we figure out something better that is cost effective ... and this pretty much pushes into the 2v per plate gap scenario to get decent performance ...

But I look forward to your results and hope you are able to show me something new ...

[Q-Hack!]

I certainly admire your tenacity and do not wish to discourage you ... so take my reply with a grain of salt and press on, noble knight ... Dulcinea awaits her champion ...

BUT, if your benchmark for success is 7 lpm on 13.5v @ 20 amps, you are setting yourself up to be disappointed and potentially discouraged ...

The 2v per plate gap most shoot for is based on the poor conductivity of stainless steel. Tests with nickel plates have shown that much lower per gap voltages might be possible with different alloys. But so far, everything we have tried seems to quickly disintegrate due to the rather violent reaction. So we are pretty much stuck with stainless for time being.

Some tests have shown that a sandwich material with a copper core and stainless on both sides might be desirable ... I am aware of experiments with such material that are going on right now and the results look pretty interesting ... but you don't even want to know what it cost in time and money to bond 2 pieces of 26 gauge 316L to a core of copper ... as one of a kinds, the 6" x 6" plates would have to sell in the $150 each price range to make it interesting to produce them in quantity ... OUCH !!!

So we are married to Stainless, preferably 316L until we figure out something better that is cost effective ... and this pretty much pushes into the 2v per plate gap scenario to get decent performance ...

But I look forward to your results and hope you are able to show me something new ...

A lot of people seem to think that the voltage requirement is based on the use of stainless steel. While the fact that it doesn't conduct very well is well documented, the real voltage requirement comes from the type of electrolyte and not the type of metal. Yes, stainless steel does require a slightly higher voltage to perform better. I am not arguing that fact. Hence the reason for using .93 volts instead of the .7 that is required to start HHO production with AgNO3. Maybe I should post the link to the book again.

This was written in 1919 and clearly shows what I am trying to point out on page 131. http://www.archive.org/download/chemistrymanufac00teedrich/chemistrymanufac00teedrich.pdf


Edit: Yes I know my 7 LPM at 20 amps is a bit over the top... but, one must have goals :D

[coffeeachiever]

A lot of people seem to think that the voltage requirement is based on the use of stainless steel. While the fact that it doesn't conduct very well is well documented, the real voltage requirement comes from the type of electrolyte and not the type of metal. Yes, stainless steel does require a slightly higher voltage to perform better. I am not arguing that fact. Hence the reason for using .93 volts instead of the .7 that is required to start HHO production with AgNO3. Maybe I should post the link to the book again.

This was written in 1919 and clearly shows what I am trying to point out on page 131. http://www.archive.org/download/chemistrymanufac00teedrich/chemistrymanufac00teedrich.pdf


Edit: Yes I know my 7 LPM at 20 amps is a bit over the top... but, one must have goals :D

SmartScarecrow is a minor hero of mine and I hang on every word he says, but I still have high hopes for this experiment. Glad to see SSC open minded about it. I'm glad to see your determination Q-Hack and I am very eager to see what you come up with.
As I used to say in my days as a hoodlum, leave no turn unstoned.:cool:
You know what I mean.

[Q-Hack!]

One of the reasons for trying again with AgNO3 was that I wanted to eliminate the need for check valves and other doo-dads that are difficult at best to work with. While I was originally thinking that AgNO3 would be safe for the engine, I am now rethinking this.

I just did a little experiment where I was wanting to find out if AgNO3 in aqueous solution would cause corrosion on aluminium. I don't think it will, but time will tell. However... One of the things I discovered (I am sure a chemist would have already known) was that the silver particulates out when in contact with aluminium. Not sure I am ready to have pieces of silver confetti in my engine just yet.

I am still going to continue with this experiment...:p

[Painless]

Not sure I am ready to have pieces of silver confetti in my engine just yet.

But, just imagine, the pretty reflective silver pieces flying out of your exhaust and catching the sunlight!

[Q-Hack!]

But, just imagine, the pretty reflective silver pieces flying out of your exhaust and catching the sunlight!

mmm... I wonder how that would show up on the emissions test? :eek:

[Painless]

mmm... I wonder how that would show up on the emissions test? :eek:

Well, if you're blowing silver out of your exhaust then you must be contributing money to the environment?

[alpha-dog]

mmm... I wonder how that would show up on the emissions test? :eek:

I don't know about emissions test but it should make some pretty good chaff to mess up radar speed traps.

[Painless]

I don't know about emissions test but it should make some pretty good chaff to mess up radar speed traps.

Not to mention the stroke of luck it will give you if your car is ever, accidentally, locked onto by a stray sidewinder.

[Q-Hack!]

Well, 14 unconnected plates is too many. Just tried it out and got absolutely nada in the way of production. :confused:

Going to remove 3 plates and try again... This will give me a plate gap voltage of 1.08 volts on my test bench (13.2 volts).

On the plus side, it looks like the Gorilla glue is holding up for now.

I am a little concerned about the particulate in the electrolyte. My holes are only 1/8 inch in the Gorilla glue (inside of a 1/4 inch hole) I suspect that any final design will have to account for this.

[SmartScarecrow]

Well, 14 unconnected plates is too many. Just tried it out and got absolutely nada in the way of production. :confused:

Going to remove 3 plates and try again... This will give me a plate gap voltage of 1.08 volts on my test bench (13.2 volts).

On the plus side, it looks like the Gorilla glue is holding up for now.

I am a little concerned about the particulate in the electrolyte. My holes are only 1/8 inch in the Gorilla glue (inside of a 1/4 inch hole) I suspect that any final design will have to account for this.




I have had trouble with so many adhesives I dont think I could list them all ... about the only thing that so far has not let me down is Marine Goop but I try to use that only very sparingly ... I have had epoxies that swore they could stop a speeding bullet turn to mush ... glues that swore they were more powerful than a locomotive crystallize and contaminate my soup ... so I can understand your frustration with the Gorilla glue ... but please keep trying different stuff ... you might get lucky and find one that holds up ...

but on the volts per plate gap, I am a bit surprised at your position ... so many before you have been down that path and passed on what they learned ... with stainless steel plates, you will end up at 2v per gap ... with nickel plates, you can get away with about 1.8v ... with copper plates you can get away with about 1.6v ... but only the stainless steel will hold up for more than 30 minutes so you will in fact end up at about 2v ...

there is certainly no harm in just proving to yourself hands on what others have found ... I do it all the time ... its all about replication and validation ... but this one was pretty much beaten to death about 20 years ago and has been documented by a lot of fellows a lot smarter than me ... did I miss something and am not understanding what it is you want to prove ?

EDIT: sorry, but on the Gorilla glue front I am confused ... you have particulate material which is probably glue residue, but you indicate that the stuff looks like its holding up !?!? please clarify ...

[Q-Hack!]

The particulate mater I am referring to is the electrolyte itself. I have noticed that it is such a problem that water flow becomes a problem. I dropped the number of plates down to two, just a positive and the negative plate and could not get any production. I initially thought that the hole in my Gorilla glue was just too small to allow electrolyte flow. So, I removed the Gorilla glue completely for a 7 plate test. Again I had absolutely no electrolyte flowing (or HHO production either). I did notice that my heat was building up fast with the reduced number of plates, but that heat may have been due to the particulate shorting out the plates. As you can see in pic "AgNO3_plates_9.jpg" that there is a lot of gunk, which I believe to be powdered silver. It is so think on the plate that it is actually blocking the flow with my 40 mil spacing between the plates. In pic "AgNO3_plates_10.jpg" you can see where the current was highest on the lower portion of the plate. This is where the gunk had settled. This stuff is messy; every thing it touches turns a dark grey.

When I first tried AgNO3 I was using a modified Smack's booster design. It had a wide spacing between the plates and was in an open bath. As a result I didn't see the problems I am seeing with the thinly spaced dry cell design. I suspect that even if I double or triple the spacing between the plates, the fact that it is a dry cell design means that eventually it will clog up with this gunk and short out the plates. At this point I think I will discontinue any testing with AgNO3. I know it works in an open bath, and I may want to do more testing with my VSPB later on (its still mounted in my Saturn VUE for now). I am going to clean up my test plates and re-glue/re-drill the 7 that I undid and see how well the Gorilla glue holds up under NaOH next.

BTW, my VSPB is built with the 3M Marine goop. I have been on the quest for the perfect substance to stick to stainless steel for almost a year now.

[Q-Hack!]

but on the volts per plate gap, I am a bit surprised at your position ... so many before you have been down that path and passed on what they learned ... with stainless steel plates, you will end up at 2v per gap ... with nickel plates, you can get away with about 1.8v ... with copper plates you can get away with about 1.6v ... but only the stainless steel will hold up for more than 30 minutes so you will in fact end up at about 2v ...


I don't think I explained why I believe the way I do very well... When I first tested AgNO3 in my modified Smacks booster... maybe I should explain how that was built.

It started out as a +|||||-|||||+|||||- setup for use with NaOH. I used this setup because it kept the heat down (gap voltage was 2.16v on my bench). I then cleaned every thing very well and used AgNO3. I had good production, but my heat went through the roof and fast. I then reconfigured the plate arrangement to +||||||||||||- or about 1 volt per gap and tried again. Production looked about the same, but it kept the heat down. I did do a LPM test, but I don't remember the exact numbers. I do remember that it wasn't any improvement over NaOH. Hence the reason I didn't pursue it further back then.

[SmartScarecrow]

I don't think I explained why I believe the way I do very well... When I first tested AgNO3 in my modified Smacks booster... maybe I should explain how that was built.

It started out as a +|||||-|||||+|||||- setup for use with NaOH. I used this setup because it kept the heat down (gap voltage was 2.16v on my bench). I then cleaned every thing very well and used AgNO3. I had good production, but my heat went through the roof and fast. I then reconfigured the plate arrangement to +||||||||||||- or about 1 volt per gap and tried again. Production looked about the same, but it kept the heat down. I did do a LPM test, but I don't remember the exact numbers. I do remember that it wasn't any improvement over NaOH. Hence the reason I didn't pursue it further back then.

I see your logic now ... but silver nitrite is only slightly more conductive and is less reactive than KOH or NaOH so I would expect the voltage required to be very similar to get any reaction ... I am rather surprised you managed to get a reaction at all with such a low voltage per plate gap ... so I may have to sleep on that one ... what you did should not have worked ... its a puzzle ...

if you can get your hands on some cesium hydroxide, that is quite a bit more reactive than either KOH or NaOH and would probably react well with voltages down in the 1.3 or 1.6 range ... but getting hand on it is tough and its expensive ...

I see now why your are getting particulate material ...

if you are interested in examining silver compounds as an electrolyte, I had pretty good results with colloidal silver ... a solution of this can be made in distilled water using a fairly high voltage electroplating technique ... instructions are readily available on the internet ... the silver ends up plated to the positive plate and the solution wont last very long, but it works pretty well for the short term ...

[Q-Hack!]

I see your logic now ... but silver nitrite is only slightly more conductive and is less reactive than KOH or NaOH so I would expect the voltage required to be very similar to get any reaction ... I am rather surprised you managed to get a reaction at all with such a low voltage per plate gap ... so I may have to sleep on that one ... what you did should not have worked ... its a puzzle ...
I suspect that Nicolas Leblanc, back in the early 1900s, didn't have stainless steel to experiment with. When he came up with the list of voltages required for minimum continuous hydrogen production, it was probably with copper plates or something with similar conductive value. Either way, one would expect to see a linear scale with the various electrolytes given the same test setup. That is to say that if using copper plates we need .7 volts for AgNO3 and 1.69 volts for NaOH. Then I would need a slightly higher voltages for both if using stainless steel.



if you can get your hands on some cesium hydroxide, that is quite a bit more reactive than either KOH or NaOH and would probably react well with voltages down in the 1.3 or 1.6 range ... but getting hand on it is tough and its expensive ...

I see now why your are getting particulate material ...

if you are interested in examining silver compounds as an electrolyte, I had pretty good results with colloidal silver ... a solution of this can be made in distilled water using a fairly high voltage electroplating technique ... instructions are readily available on the internet ... the silver ends up plated to the positive plate and the solution wont last very long, but it works pretty well for the short term ...

I may at some point get into other electrolytes. Something that I will have to keep in mind, we need electrolytes that don't produce sludge. Could be a tall order.

[SmartScarecrow]

I have a working theory about what most of us are doing in these things that I will run past you ... actually, its not "my theory", its one that a number of fellows I know have worked out and I have bought into it ... this may or may not be the "facts" but the numbers we are seeing seem to support it ...

so here goes ...

We are NOT directly splitting water with electrolysis in the manner described by Faraday. What we are doing is spitting KOH (in my case anyway; works same with NaOH) ...

this is what happens ...

at a point somewhere between the plates is a sweet spot ... at this sweet spot, the electrical potential, zero point energy, strong nuclear force, magnetic levitation or what the heck it is that yanks a molecule apart is strong enough that is pulls apart the components of the KOH molecule ... KOH is not bound nearly as strong as water and is in fact much easier to seperate ...

the K and H components each have a slight positive charge to them and start migrating toward the negative plate ... the O component has a slight negative charge to it and starts migrating toward the positive plate ...

now as it happens, the K component is highly reactive and really dont like to travel alone ... with so much water in the mix, the K is bound to nudge close enough along the way to come in contact with a water molecule ... because of its reactive nature, the K is strong enough to grab hold of a water molecule and bind with it ... in the process, a small amount of heat is released along with a spare H that used to be part of the water ... this is because the reactivity of the K is such that it is happy and stabilized once it acquires a bond with a single H and a single O ...

so now that the K has managed to eject an H from the water molecule it has decided to react with, what are we left with ? well, from the original KOH molecule we split, we immediately got 1 H and 1 O ... then from the chemical reaction of the K bonding with a water molecule we got another H, a little bit of heat and a KOH molecule to start the process all over again with ...

now again, this is the working theory ... numbers are being developed right now that seem to support this scenario ... it explains a lot of the anomalies that many of us have noted over the years and there are many of us that think this will probably turn out to be what is actually happening in our devices ...

how is this relevant to what you are working on ?

well, it gives you clues as to what to look for in a potential electrolyte ... one of the reasons that KOH and NaOH seem to work so well and appear to be much more efficient than some other materials tried might be due to the OH components, and the metallic components affinity for reaction with water ...

something to think about ...

[Q-Hack!]

It seems a reasonable theory. I am not much of a chemist, so for me it is all just a best guess. I will say this though, from every body I have seen or read about trying different substances. It appears that hydroxides perform better than non hydroxides. Which would support your (their) theory.

I think there was somebody on this forum that wanted to try Calcium hydroxide. Not sure if he ever did try it... at least I never heard of the outcome from it. I do remember that we speculated on weather it would leave calcium deposits on the plates, much like hard water leaves calcium on a teapot. But it would be interesting to know the results.

[daddymikey1975]

I have a working theory about what most of us are doing in these things that I will run past you ... actually, its not "my theory", its one that a number of fellows I know have worked out and I have bought into it ... this may or may not be the "facts" but the numbers we are seeing seem to support it ...

so here goes ...

We are NOT directly splitting water with electrolysis in the manner described by Faraday. What we are doing is spitting KOH (in my case anyway; works same with NaOH) ...

this is what happens ...

at a point somewhere between the plates is a sweet spot ... at this sweet spot, the electrical potential, zero point energy, strong nuclear force, magnetic levitation or what the heck it is that yanks a molecule apart is strong enough that is pulls apart the components of the KOH molecule ... KOH is not bound nearly as strong as water and is in fact much easier to seperate ...

the K and H components each have a slight positive charge to them and start migrating toward the negative plate ... the O component has a slight negative charge to it and starts migrating toward the positive plate ...

now as it happens, the K component is highly reactive and really dont like to travel alone ... with so much water in the mix, the K is bound to nudge close enough along the way to come in contact with a water molecule ... because of its reactive nature, the K is strong enough to grab hold of a water molecule and bind with it ... in the process, a small amount of heat is released along with a spare H that used to be part of the water ... this is because the reactivity of the K is such that it is happy and stabilized once it acquires a bond with a single H and a single O ...

so now that the K has managed to eject an H from the water molecule it has decided to react with, what are we left with ? well, from the original KOH molecule we split, we immediately got 1 H and 1 O ... then from the chemical reaction of the K bonding with a water molecule we got another H, a little bit of heat and a KOH molecule to start the process all over again with ...

now again, this is the working theory ... numbers are being developed right now that seem to support this scenario ... it explains a lot of the anomalies that many of us have noted over the years and there are many of us that think this will probably turn out to be what is actually happening in our devices ...

how is this relevant to what you are working on ?

well, it gives you clues as to what to look for in a potential electrolyte ... one of the reasons that KOH and NaOH seem to work so well and appear to be much more efficient than some other materials tried might be due to the OH components, and the metallic components affinity for reaction with water ...

something to think about ...

while I do understand that this is only theory at this point, this is the BEST explanation of what's happening that i've run across.

it brings me to another point that i thought of while reading this.

what we're doing wouldn't exactly be 'water electrolysis' then would it?? HAHA (that's meant as a joke)

plasma spark could electrolyze water and split it couldn't it ?? (assuming the information that's available is accurate)

this seems the most promising way to effectively 'split' water molecules. I thought I ran across someone on one of the forums where I play, that was working on such an animal.

I think Shane (here) was working on the vexus circuit to do just this... i'm interested to see how this works out.. wouldn't have to use an electrolyte, should be just distilled water.

just my thoughts while reading.

mike

[Q-Hack!]

while I do understand that this is only theory at this point, this is the BEST explanation of what's happening that i've run across.

it brings me to another point that i thought of while reading this.

what we're doing wouldn't exactly be 'water electrolysis' then would it?? HAHA (that's meant as a joke)

plasma spark could electrolyze water and split it couldn't it ?? (assuming the information that's available is accurate)

this seems the most promising way to effectively 'split' water molecules. I thought I ran across someone on one of the forums where I play, that was working on such an animal.

I think Shane (here) was working on the vexus circuit to do just this... i'm interested to see how this works out.. wouldn't have to use an electrolyte, should be just distilled water.

just my thoughts while reading.

mike

Once you get into plasma, you enter into a whole new realm. Plasma being the third state of mater puts you into quantum theory. Tis a bit more than just breaking apart molecules.

[Painless]

plasma spark could electrolyze water and split it couldn't it ?? (assuming the information that's available is accurate)

From what I've seen, plasma spark will not only split the water but will ignite the HHO too.

[Q-Hack!]

I put the cell back together yesterday and ran it 20 hours with about 2 Tbls. NaOH in 1/2 gal. distilled water. This gave me about 3.4-3.5 amps. production was about 250 ml/m. MMW~5.5 give or take an elephant.

I suspect the MMW would increase if I add more NaOH, but I wanted to see how it would hold up over night and didn't want to worry about over heating while I slept. The electrolyte temp this morning was about 113 F.

After taking the cell apart, I patted the plates dry, trying not to disturb the current patterns on the plates. In pic #1 you can see the negative side of the plates. The current seems to be fairly equal with a bias on the lower half of the plates. There are some strange patterns around the holes, that may be due to the bubbly nature of the Gorilla glue allowing a small amount of current through. The positive sides of the plate look clean and the Gorilla glue holds up extremely well. To the touch, it appears to be the same consistency from when I first drilled them.

Obviously this is only considered a short term test, long term (6 months) may prove different. Gorilla glue sticks to stainless steel very well, but I am not convinced it is the best at blocking stray current. Now I have to ponder where I want to go from here. ;)

Edit: I should mention that my plate configuration for this test was +|||||-

[Painless]

Looks good so far, can't predict about the glues use long term as I've never had cause to glue a gorilla.....

[SmartScarecrow]

From what I've seen, plasma spark will not only split the water but will ignite the HHO too.


yes, that is pretty much what I have found ... its pretty hard to collect HHO for use elsewhere using a plasma device ...

one area that needs some serious investigation is the practicality of powering a linear combustion engine on a plasma type device ... I think there is a lot of potential in it but do not have the technical skill required to fabricate even this very simple engine design ... sure wish an HHO enthusiast with some metal working expertise would get interested in it ... has the potential of being able to self power if its tweaked to take advantage of both the explosion and implosion effects that can be derived from stoich HHO ... could be a fascinating area of experimentation ...

[daddymikey1975]

From what I've seen, plasma spark will not only split the water but will ignite the HHO too.

I've seen this as well. it's fascinating to say the least :)

[Q-Hack!]

I am getting ready to move here, so it may be a month before I get around to trying this. SmartScarcrow was telling us, in a different thread, about a problem of electrolyte flow in a large plate stack. Thinking that I may want to switch over to EBN technology, I was thinking of ways to overcome this problem. Squish three cutting boards together in between two EBN cells, creating a small reservoir in the middle. I could even add more of the middle design thereby creating a larger reservoir. Comments?

[H2OPWR]

I am getting ready to move here, so it may be a month before I get around to trying this. SmartScarcrow was telling us, in a different thread, about a problem of electrolyte flow in a large plate stack. Thinking that I may want to switch over to EBN technology, I was thinking of ways to overcome this problem. Squish three cutting boards together in between two EBN cells, creating a small reservoir in the middle. I could even add more of the middle design thereby creating a larger reservoir. Comments?

I will have a video up today. It has 51 plates with 48 plate gaps. 6 stacks of +nnnnn-. There are two different center chambers like you are describing.

[SmartScarecrow]

I am getting ready to move here, so it may be a month before I get around to trying this. SmartScarcrow was telling us, in a different thread, about a problem of electrolyte flow in a large plate stack. Thinking that I may want to switch over to EBN technology, I was thinking of ways to overcome this problem. Squish three cutting boards together in between two EBN cells, creating a small reservoir in the middle. I could even add more of the middle design thereby creating a larger reservoir. Comments?


I think your plan will work well as long as limit the number of plate gaps on each side of your central reservoir to maybe 40 ish or so ... and I can certainly see packaging advantages to such an arrangement ...

back in November when I was working with d3adp00l on the small engine project, we took two 36 plate 8" EBN device, joined them to a shared reservoir scheme similar in concept to what you propose ... it worked very well ...

the only issue you might confront is lack of fluid volume ... the setup we used had about 3 liters of total fluid volume ... this helped the fluid stay fairly cool so the gas we made was not laced with steam ...

you might overcome the small fluid capacity issue by using a much larger central chamber, or maybe an external reservoir ... I can think of a number of ways that your plan could be implemented with very good results ...

good luck with your plan ... I look forward to seeing how you approach the problems and beat them ...

[Q-Hack!]

you might overcome the small fluid capacity issue by using a much larger central chamber, or maybe an external reservoir ... I can think of a number of ways that your plan could be implemented with very good results ...

good luck with your plan ... I look forward to seeing how you approach the problems and beat them ...

I was, in fact, thinking of using an external reservoir along with this. The idea being that this entire assembly would sit below my headlights in the Saturn Vue and the bubbler/reservoir would sit up high where I can get to it easily.

[Q-Hack!]

I think I found what I am going to test next...

http://www.3m.com/US/auto_marine_aero/Bondo/catalog_item9e70.html?itemNbr=180

I bought this for use on my 51 Plymouth, and was just thinking that it might work as the filler for the holes in the plates. It sands easily, hopefully it drills easier than the Gorilla glue.

[Q-Hack!]

Well, that was a short test...

Turns out that the Bondo is supposed to come with a hardener. For some reason mine is missing out of the container. (supposed to be a small tube under the lid.) Of course I don't know what I did with the receipt. :mad: Guess this will wait until I can find some hardener some place.

But, I did have something else I could do. I found this at the local Home Despot.
http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/product/108772_front200.jpg
I spent the weekend glueing the plates and then drilling them... This epoxy is much nicer to work with than the Gorilla glue. It isn't near as brittle when drilled. It doesn't expand when drying. It sanded smooth easily. If this stuff holds up under electrolysis, then it will be what I use from now on.

Unfortunately, I have to fly to Salt Lake City tonight for the week. So I won't get to test this out until next weekend. Grrr... That work thing keeps getting in the way of my fun.

ps. You have to cut the cap out of the plunger before you try to squeeze the glue out. Don't ask me how I found this out :rolleyes: