dry cell gaskets

[gashead]

i went to lowes looking for the pvc shower pan liner that painless said he used in his cells. i could not find it, and when i asked the man in the plumbing dept. he looked at me as if i were an idiot, ( i quess i am ). any other suggestions on where to get it or another option of what to use. thanks in advance im looking forward to replacing the old water4gas design im currently using

[H2OPWR]

i went to lowes looking for the pvc shower pan liner that painless said he used in his cells. i could not find it, and when i asked the man in the plumbing dept. he looked at me as if i were an idiot, ( i quess i am ). any other suggestions on where to get it or another option of what to use. thanks in advance im looking forward to replacing the old water4gas design im currently using

I had to go twice to find it. At the Lowes here it was in large packages by the PCV cement. It will allow closer spacing than Neoprene. It is .040 and 1/16" Neoprene is .0625. One word of caution if you use it. It is PVC. While a great insulator and thin it has a MAX working temp of 140 degrees. If your cell overheats you risk melting and leaking. While it will make great gaskets and allow a more effecient closer spacing you will have to watch the temp closely. I would use a PWM and have a temp guage installed. Especially during hot weather.

[daddymikey1975]

I had to ask 2 different people at my local menards.

it's on a roll, up in the air a bit higher. it was in the same aisles as the clear acrylic.. where they can cut pieces.. it was also VERY near the 'plumbers pack' insulating material that Painless used for his switch plate dry cell.

the roll was 48" wide and you pick the length.

I hope this helps.
mike

[gashead]

i hope im wrong, but with my luck i will end up exeeding 140 degrees and melting down. i thank you much for your information. does anyone have a plate confiquration that pulls under 15 amps and doesn't build alot of heat ( i'm probably asking alot here! ) it gets pretty hot here in the summer

[BoyntonStu]

i hope im wrong, but with my luck i will end up exeeding 140 degrees and melting down. i thank you much for your information.

PVC shower liner does NOT melt at 140*F.

Take a piece and try melting it in 180*F water.

BoyntonStu

[H2OPWR]

PVC shower liner does NOT melt at 140*F.

Take a piece and try melting it in 180*F water.

BoyntonStu

You are correct Stu. PVC does not melt at 140 degrees. It melts at 265 degrees but does start to deform at much lower temps. When using PVC pipe to carry water you have to derate it's pressure rating by 50 percent at 110 degrees and 78 percent at 140 degrees. I agree that it is a great gasket it is thinner than you can find most rubber and neoprene products and makes for higher effeciency's as I mentioned in the previous post. I was just trying to give him a word of caution about cell temps using PVC and keeping his cell cool. With the compression we put on out gaskets to seal our cells everyone should make sure that the cell stays under 140 degrees to avoid problems.

[hg2]

Tampa Rubber and Gasket company sells a good grade of neoprene and has a computerized water jet cutter that you can call in or fax them a diagram of what you want and they will ship to you.They do have a $30 minimum order though.I've used neoprene in my dry cell for over a year with no problems.You can buy the neoprene in a roll ,but it's not much more to have them cut them and they look like a factory gasket.If your plates are an odd shape other than square or rectangular it would be a good idea to send them a trace or diagram.They will ask you how wide a flange you want and that's how wide you want the part that faces the plate.They have just about any thickness you'll need.

Their ph.# is 813-247-3647

Hydrotinkerer got his their and was very pleased with the accuracy and quality.

[Bassman]

W.W. Grainger has all types. You might take a look at their catalog #399, page 2999.
I used 1/8" o-rings and it runs real cool but I haven't measured the output. How much does the volume increase with the plates closer together? Wouldn't that vary by the strength of your solution. In other words, would the output be the same if you used 1/8" and drawed 15 amps versus 1/16" with a 15 amp draw? Has someone experimented with that?

[H2OPWR]

W.W. Grainger has all types. You might take a look at their catalog #399, page 2999.
I used 1/8" o-rings and it runs real cool but I haven't measured the output. How much does the volume increase with the plates closer together? Wouldn't that vary by the strength of your solution. In other words, would the output be the same if you used 1/8" and drawed 15 amps versus 1/16" with a 15 amp draw? Has someone experimented with that?

The closer the plates the less resistance for the electricity to travel. Less resistance = less heat and greater effecienct ie MMW. No matter what you do with your electrolite you could do the same with a closer plate gap. As long as the electrolite can get in and the gas can get out with no buildup of gas between the plates the better you are. Key is keeping the gap far enough apart that the cell can stay totally flooded.

[gashead]

The closer the plates the less resistance for the electricity to travel. Less resistance = less heat and greater effecienct ie MMW. No matter what you do with your electrolite you could do the same with a closer plate gap. As long as the electrolite can get in and the gas can get out with no buildup of gas between the plates the better you are. Key is keeping the gap far enough apart that the cell can stay totally flooded.

how much gap is too much. im installing grommets in my plate holes, and my gaskets seem to compress the plates perfectly against the grommets so not to block flow of electrolyte, but also not to leak. it should end up with .080-.100 thou of an inch.

[H2OPWR]

how much gap is too much. im installing grommets in my plate holes, and my gaskets seem to compress the plates perfectly against the grommets so not to block flow of electrolyte, but also not to leak. it should end up with .080-.100 thou of an inch.

From my personal experience .08 to .1 is way to wide a gap. My gaskets are .0625 and compress to .050. I am exploring ways to get to .04 or less. There are some sheet rubbers out there that are .02 those are what I think I will try next. As long as there is no gas pocket build up's in the cell and all gaps stay completely flooded closer is better.

[BoyntonStu]

W.W. Grainger has all types. You might take a look at their catalog #399, page 2999.
I used 1/8" o-rings and it runs real cool but I haven't measured the output. How much does the volume increase with the plates closer together? Wouldn't that vary by the strength of your solution. In other words, would the output be the same if you used 1/8" and drawed 15 amps versus 1/16" with a 15 amp draw? Has someone experimented with that?

I made a cell with 0.025" spacings.

It was the best so far.

If a cell leaks and you can't even see the hole, imagine what 1/32" can pass.

Heck, I pass gas and I can't see the leak!

BoyntonStu

[Bassman]

I made a cell with 0.025" spacings.

It was the best so far.

If a cell leaks and you can't even see the hole, imagine what 1/32" can pass.

Heck, I pass gas and I can't see the leak!

BoyntonStu

Good point, but you can't hear the cell leak.
I have used .125 o-ring in my dry cell and have squeezed it down to almost half of that and I'm still fighting leaks. I have a wet cell that is spaced 3/32" with nylon washers and it has a good output but I don't know about leaks:D. I want to take the o-rings out of my dry cell and change it to gaskets but I'm undecided about the thickness. Do you think that the neoprene rubber gasket material will compress that much? I'm considering the 1/16" thickness.

[BoyntonStu]

Good point, but you can't hear the cell leak.
I have used .125 o-ring in my dry cell and have squeezed it down to almost half of that and I'm still fighting leaks. I have a wet cell that is spaced 3/32" with nylon washers and it has a good output but I don't know about leaks:D. I want to take the o-rings out of my dry cell and change it to gaskets but I'm undecided about the thickness. Do you think that the neoprene rubber gasket material will compress that much? I'm considering the 1/16" thickness.

I am about to purchase 1/32 Neoprene 6.25 x 6.25 with a .375 flange.

I hope the squeeze it down to 0.025.

Cost per gasket $2.18.

If others are interested, perhaps we can buy gaskets cheaper in larger quantities or perhaps buy a sheet and have a "friend" build a hammer die.

RU interested?

BoyntonStu

[H2OPWR]

Good point, but you can't hear the cell leak.
I have used .125 o-ring in my dry cell and have squeezed it down to almost half of that and I'm still fighting leaks. I have a wet cell that is spaced 3/32" with nylon washers and it has a good output but I don't know about leaks:D. I want to take the o-rings out of my dry cell and change it to gaskets but I'm undecided about the thickness. Do you think that the neoprene rubber gasket material will compress that much? I'm considering the 1/16" thickness.

I am currently using 1/16" .0625 neoprene for gaskets. It works well but I want thinner gaskets. All the extra space wastes current and acts as a resistor.

[bigjim56]

OK, rather than make a new thread, I decided to revive this old one due to the palethera of information on here. I am inclined to use the shower pan liner due to the closer spacing. According to the previous posts here, it has a lower melt temp, but yet the closer spacing allows for a more efficient output and lower temperature control. Has anyone experienced any leakage using the shower liner on their dry cells? If so, at what temps? I don't plan to run mine at the highter temps. Its been said many times that only a little HHO is good, so I'm not in a race to build the HYPER HHO dry cell here, I just want a good steady output from a low maint. cell. The temperature would remain low.

I know some are using 1/16" (0.0625) Neoprene and its not the cost thats driving me, I just want an efficient cell.

Thanks,

bigjim56

[SmartScarecrow]

OK, rather than make a new thread, I decided to revive this old one due to the palethera of information on here. I am inclined to use the shower pan liner due to the closer spacing. According to the previous posts here, it has a lower melt temp, but yet the closer spacing allows for a more efficient output and lower temperature control. Has anyone experienced any leakage using the shower liner on their dry cells? If so, at what temps? I don't plan to run mine at the highter temps. Its been said many times that only a little HHO is good, so I'm not in a race to build the HYPER HHO dry cell here, I just want a good steady output from a low maint. cell. The temperature would remain low.

I know some are using 1/16" (0.0625) Neoprene and its not the cost thats driving me, I just want an efficient cell.

Thanks,

bigjim56

neoprene also starts to degrade in the 140F to 150F temp range ... seems most of the materials used as gaskets work best if kept below this range ... Buna-N (nitrile) makes excellent gaskets and gives you a bit more head room on temperatures ... you should be safe with Buna-N up into 180F territory ...

in most designs, a closer gap will provide better performance ... however, this is not written in stone ... many factors play into it, none the least is productivity ... in some high performance designs that are intended for high volume output, you will find that a wider gap is preferred ...

plate size is a factor .. if you keep to the more common 6" profile, you should be fine ... however, stainless steel is a poor conductor ... if you get much beyond the 6" profile on your plates, you might find it necessary to feed power to the plate at multiple points to make sure you get even distribution of power across the surface ...

in most cases, the biggest killer of efficiency is running the device over voltage ... with stainless steel plates, you really want to feed power in such a way that your average voltage per plate gap is as close as possible to 2v ... you will lose efficiency to UNDER voltage a LOT FASTER than you will to over voltage ... so if you must choose between 1.8v and 2.2v, you are better off with 2.2v ...

if you are designing for 12v operation, the most common configuration is a 4N ... in a 4N, your basic plate arrangement is +nnnn- ... this will work well, but may tend to run a bit hot and may not be as efficient in its use of power as the 5N which is wired +nnnnn- ... the 5N will not appear to be as productive, but what is produced will be more volatile due to lower temperature of the gas delivered and lesser water vapor content ... I have heard of some getting good results from a 6N but most don't seem to go that way ... most seem to pick either a 4N or 5N ...

a lot of back and forth about using just one hole in the plate at the top or using two holes, one at the top and one at the bottom ... it is a fact that the use of a lower hole at the bottom of the plate contributes to a certain amount of wasted energy and heat ... there is no doubt about this, its pretty much a proven fact ... but, in a larger device, something in the 20, 30 or maybe even 60 plate range, that lower hole is pretty hard to avoid to keep your fluid level across the stack ... without it, you will end up with low fluid in the center of your device ... so its one of those things where you might be damned if you, but damned if you dont ...

[bigjim56]

Thanks Smartscarecrow for the input, my plates are 6" X 8". I will run by Lowe's today to check out the liner. I don't foresee temp. problems w/using it, a number of factors come into play. My drives are short 20 - 30 minutes to work, I plan on using the HK2 resevoir which aids in cooling, and I will be going to a PWM eventually for even more efficiency. I believe it was your input too (on a seperate thread) on the spring ball design for flash back protection, very helpful.

Thanks!

bigjim56

[HHO-2050]

"EPDM" RUBBER material is recomended in chemical resistance chart to use with KOH or NaOH. NEOPRENE rubber material is also recommended to use with NaOH but has less chemical resistance to KOH as compared to "EPDM" RUBBER material. EPDM has temprature range -40 F to 212 F while NEOPRENE has temprature range -20 F to 212 F. Both can be purchased at Grainger Industrial Supply in different sizes. 1/32" is good gasket thinkness in a HHO dry generator.

[BioFarmer93]

"EPDM" RUBBER material is recomended in chemical resistance chart to use with KOH or NaOH. NEOPRENE rubber material is also recommended to use with NaOH but has less chemical resistance to KOH as compared to "EPDM" RUBBER material. EPDM has temprature range -40 F to 212 F while NEOPRENE has temprature range -20 F to 212 F. Both can be purchased at Grainger Industrial Supply in different sizes. 1/32" is good gasket thinkness in a HHO dry generator.

Are you just practicing your typing, or did you not notice that both of the threads you responded to have been dead for a loooong time?:D Actually, 1/32" spacing is fine for small bipolar reactors, and unipolar reactors up to 80-100A, but larger bipolar reactors seem to thrive with .08" to .10" spacing depending on neutral plate count and area.. It's all inter-related.