The undiscussed topic! Please pitch in!

[y_not]

I have been a bit stalled on finishing my current track of experimentation due to an environmental and safety concern.

Now I don't want to alarm anyone, or possibly even discuss a topic that some may not even wish to see discussed here, or anywhere.
So I have held off on posting this now for months and months, hoping maybe someone else would bring it up, or I would find my answer another way.
But I feel it's something that needs to be addressed.

So without intention to offend, scare, or otherwise disturb anyone's feelings or thoughts towards the subject, here goes.


I'm sure as many of you are aware since we are blasting electricity through these steel made materials for our electrolysis methods, that it invariably begins to break down the steel, thus releasing the chromium atoms from their atomic bond with the other alloys in the compound that makes up steel.

Now, from what I have read, and keeping in mind I'm not a scientist just one at heart without any formal training and therefore I'm not a trained authority on the subject, so I can only state what I have learned through researching the matter. Chromium in low concentrations, and in certain molecular forms is just fine, and safe for normal levels of exposure. In fact our own molecular makeup contains chromium atoms and molecular strains of 2 & even 3 CR atoms. But in the right molecular pairing of atoms, specifically 6, chromium becomes pretty nasty stuff, of which we should avoid contact, and exposure in this form.

I was aware of this problem, but didn't really think it'd be an issue in the short term, until I had to shutdown my cell after running it only for about 1-1.5wks.

At which time I had discovered several inches of accumulated rusty gunk in the water of my cell.
Which I am aware that this is caused by the leaching of iron from the metal, thus creating iron oxide, or rust.

None the less, it got me pointed in the right direction when I went to look it up.
I have done research as to the production of CR+6 in electrolysis operations and HHO cells in general, and have determined that it is something that should be dealt with, whether it's in to small a quantity to even matter or not, I certainly don't want to make my car "Green" only to dump "Sludge" back into the earth. That would be some major bad stewardship of what we have been given. ;-)

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find an affordable, nor accurate way to test for the presence of CR+6 specifically, other than the fact that CR is present, which we know. I would feel much safer, and assured in my experimentation efforts to know whether I'm making this toxic form of Chromium in my cell or not, thus allowing me to keep tabs on whether my changes to the cell's design are having any effect on reducing or eliminating the production of the CR+6 molecular strain.

All the affordable test methods/kits that I have found simply test for the presence of CR, and don't seem to differentiate between the presence of safe chromium molecular structures, and the unsafe CR+6 form of chromium.

I have read that Citric Acid will break the bonds of the chromium atoms forming the CR+6 molecular structure, into much safer molecular bonds, such as CR-2 & CR-3. But how do I verify that it's been properly neutralized, or is even there in the 1st place? Short of sending it to a lab for proper analysis, which I highly doubt I can afford, what are your suggestions, anyone?

I'm wanting to experiment with different electrolytes and metals to find a solution that is immune to the formation of CR+6. Of which I'm hoping will be pure citric acid, but the last thing I want to do is create even more toxic sludge during my tests. =0

Any advice? Is anyone here an Industrial Chemist, or know one, or have access to a lab and a definitive way to test samples for us on our quests for a greener energy?

Please advise, your positive comments are much appreciated.

[daddymikey1975]

welcome to the forum :D

I do know that we've all been aware of the 'white death' from using the electrolytes that we do.

I'm not certain if anyone has been concerned with chromium.

I do know that electrolyte solutions using pure NaOH or KOH only and distilled water only and using high grade stainless (316L) will alleviate of not completely remove the possibility of rust blooms.

from what I've researched I have yet to find anyone using these combinations that's had a generator running for months at a time and also had a problem with the rusty sludge.

My immediate wonderings are as follows..
1. What are you using in your generator ? stainless, water type, electrolyte type etc.
2. what type of plate prep have you done ?

the other question that I have is under normal circumstances (using the above materials only) does the steel still break down and release the chromium atoms ??

these are questions better left to the chemical experts of which I am not.

I hope we can figure this out. Great questions by the way.

mike

[overtaker]

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Neutralizing Toxic Chromium with Sugar?
Researchers in New Orleans have found that simple fructose and sucrose remove highly toxic hexavalent chromium, the pollutant made famous by Erin Brockovich.
Thursday, April 05, 2007

Sugar molecules could be used to remove the deadly toxin hexavalent chromium (Cr(VI)) from the environment.
Credit: Tomasz Barszcak
This is literally a sugarcoated story about how a simple and abundant molecule can rid the world of a deadly pollutant that causes cancer and a long list of horrific maladies ranging from skin ulcerations to perforated eardrums and kidney damage. The toxin, hexavalent chromium (Cr(VI)), is a by-product of manufacturing videotapes, paints, and dyes. Its ill effects were made famous by the class-action suit led by Erin Brockovich--depicted in the film Erin Brockovich, starring Julia Roberts.

Up until now, cleaning up Cr(VI) from the environment involved expensive treatments with acid and other chemical agents that are themselves pollutants, though not as potent as Cr(VI).

Enter chemist Bryan Bilyeu of Xavier University, in New Orleans. Last week he reported that a fructose solution added to wastewater and soil contaminated with Cr(VI) removed 94 percent of the contaminate; glucose removed 93 percent. Sugar converts the toxic chromium into the naturally occurring and more stable chromium III--a nutrient necessary for life.

According to an article in Science,

Bilyeu says he and his colleagues at the Universidad Autónoma del Estado de México in Toluca are also studying how to filter wastewater through processed orange peels, cactus, and other natural fibers. He says this method would remove most of the chromium from the effluent, instead of discharging it in a less toxic form. Sugar solutions might even be able to treat contamination by other heavy metals, such as cadmium or copper, Bilyeu adds, but his team hasn't yet investigated those possibilities.

Cleaning up environmental pollution has cost polluters and society billions of dollars, and it will cost untold billions (or more) in the future. Battles are waged between polluters and environmentalists in courts, legislatures, and global summits, while scientists labor to come up with technologies to rid the world of toxins.

In the midst of this imbroglio comes an unexpected remedy that is almost laughably simple: sugar.

Berardelli, Phil, "Sweet Solution for Chromium Pollution," ScienceNOW Daily News, 29 March 2007

For more information on Cr(VI).
.................................................. .................................................. ....
I don't think anyone will be offended by you posting a health concern. Most would thank you for it then address the issue. Take care.

p.s. www.technologyreview.com/blog/duncan/17578/

[Painless]

Apparently, from vids I've seen on youtube, hexavalent chromium is present in our waste electrolyte after electrolysis. The most responsible thing we can do here is dispose of it responsibly. Don't dump it down a drain or on the ground near and water tables.

One guy on youtube used a fairly expensive test kit to confirm the presence of hexavalent chromium.

I've heard also about using sugar to break it down to a safer form, we should certainly research this.

[Q-Hack!]

Yes, we have discussed Cr(VI) here on the forums before. Please dispose of your electrolyte through a Haz-waste facility and not your drain. I am going to have to read more about this sugar solution. If it does in fact reduce the Cr(VI) then it may be the answer we are looking for.

[y_not]

welcome to the forum :D

Hey thanks a bunch. Glad to be here!


I do know that we've all been aware of the 'white death' from using the electrolytes that we do.

Yeah, KOH, NaOH is pretty nasty stuff. Not to be taken lightly in it's use at all.


I'm not certain if anyone has been concerned with chromium.

Yeah, I bet you it's in most if not all of our cells.


I do know that electrolyte solutions using pure NaOH or KOH only and distilled water only and using high grade stainless (316L) will alleviate of not completely remove the possibility of rust blooms.

Unfortunately to my understanding, this brown, red, orange or yellow color simply indicates the presence of iron oxides, or rust caused by the corrosion process as the leached iron comes in contact with the water and begins to corrode.
At least that's as I understand it, thus no presence of visible color simply means you managed not to leach the iron out of the Stainless steel during the electrolysis process.
It doesn't, however mean there is not a presence of CR or CR+6 in the water afterward. As the oxidative state of chromium doesn't appear to have a visible color, as chromium doesn't rust or corrode, thus producing a visible color reaction in water.


from what I've researched I have yet to find anyone using these combinations that's had a generator running for months at a time and also had a problem with the rusty sludge.

My immediate wonderings are as follows..
1. What are you using in your generator ? stainless, water type, electrolyte type etc.
2. what type of plate prep have you done ?


Good questions, but I don't want the thread getting to far off topic as most of us geeks like to do, myself included "The King of Digress" ;-)
I'll post this later though.


the other question that I have is under normal circumstances (using the above materials only) does the steel still break down and release the chromium atoms ??

Another good question!


these are questions better left to the chemical experts of which I am not.

*In Teal'c voice* Indeed!


I hope we can figure this out. Great questions by the way.

mike

Yeah me too, we'll all be the better for it.
Thx. again!

[y_not]

This should be made a sticky....More Blogs | Back to David Ewing Duncan's blog

*SNIP*

Neutralizing Toxic Chromium with Sugar?
Researchers in New Orleans have found that simple fructose and sucrose remove highly toxic hexavalent chromium, the pollutant made famous by Erin Brockovich.
Thursday, April 05, 2007
*SNIP*

Thanks for posting this, yes it should be made a sticky.
I had in fact actually read this exact article not to long ago.

But it left me wondering, ok, how much sugar do we use?
How do we know we have achieved successful breakdown, etc..?

Things I really wouldn't be comfortable with, without a proper test method to tell us where we are in treating our water.

Of course the ultimate goal would be to design a cell & electrolyte solution to keep it from happening in the 1st place.

I have also seen the use of citric acid to break down the CR+6 molecule.
Again, how much, testing, etc...

Which leaves me thinking, why not just use Citric Acid as our electrolyte, which I plan on doing testing on this theory to determine if it really does keep the CR+6 out of the picture, irregardless of HHO output, just simply as a test initially.

And then, if the sacrifice if any is worth it in reduction of gas output, then by all means I'd have a solution to the problem of CR+6 production.



*SNIP*
I don't think anyone will be offended by you posting a health concern. Most would thank you for it then address the issue. Take care.

p.s. www.technologyreview.com/blog/duncan/17578/

Yeah, they shouldn't, but you'd be surprised.
Might have people pop out of the woodwork and yell foul, or "you shouldn't be discussing this, it's bogus!" you know the drill with that. =)

I'm cautious because I have actually seen people get their hands slapped for discussing it at some forums. So I wanted to be careful, and make it known I wasn't trying to cause trouble, if trouble we're perceived.

But yes, it does need to be discussed, thank you! :-)

[y_not]

Apparently, from vids I've seen on youtube, hexavalent chromium is present in our waste electrolyte after electrolysis. The most responsible thing we can do here is dispose of it responsibly. Don't dump it down a drain or on the ground near and water tables.

One guy on youtube used a fairly expensive test kit to confirm the presence of hexavalent chromium.

I've heard also about using sugar to break it down to a safer form, we should certainly research this.

I actually watched that same video, I believe it's the one you are referencing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55_j21tCN_k

What I have read on the net though, states that this is not a definitive test, as such it only really detects chromium's presence and not necessarily CR+6 or Hexavalent Chromium. Also, it doesn't compensate for other contaminants, such as and even including Iron.

In my research I have learned However, that if Chromium leached water is allowed contact with diphenylcarbazide (Carbonic dihydrazide), in that event it will turn purple, but only then does it change color.

Of course at that point you have to use a spectrophotometer/colorimeter to determine the concentration of it, etc... What I need to find out is how to determine if it's CR+6 and not just the presence of a benign or safe form of CR.

Which is exactly what this guy ahs done here.
I'm hoping someone has access to lab quality resources to verify our findings, and maybe then we could determine if a test kit like this were sufficient.

Then we could just purchase the necessary Carbonic Dihydrazide and do our own tests, many, many times over on the cheap.

Wouldn't that be great. HEHE!!

[jerzhere]

On the environmental side, I wonder if the water exhaust contains any contamination. My understanding is that HHO helps to reduce emissions by allowing the fuel to completely burn. That's great but... does it contaminate the water being thrown out your tail pipe? If it does, one or two cars may not add up to much but hundreds of thousands or even millions could lead to a huge problems... problems concerning our water supply!

Has anyone had the exhaust water tested for contamination?

[crewdog]

All modern cars have SS exhaust systems because of the catalytic converter. The converter makes some acid that would rust out your exhaust in little time.

crewdog

[y_not]

All modern cars have SS exhaust systems because of the catalytic converter. The converter makes some acid that would rust out your exhaust in little time.

crewdog

Crewdog, can you prvide more info, refferences, etc.. as to your statement?

I'm not necessarily doubting it, this is just the 1st time I have heard this and would like to hear more details as to how this happens, chemical reaction, etc..

Thx.

[y_not]

On the environmental side, I wonder if the water exhaust contains any contamination. My understanding is that HHO helps to reduce emissions by allowing the fuel to completely burn. That's great but... does it contaminate the water being thrown out your tail pipe? If it does, one or two cars may not add up to much but hundreds of thousands or even millions could lead to a huge problems... problems concerning our water supply!

Has anyone had the exhaust water tested for contamination?

Hrm... You raise an interesting point.
But don't our tailpipes allready aoutput a certain ammount of water vapor as it is? So then wouldn't that water vapor also be contaminated as well if this were the case?

However you state:

That's great but... does it (HHO) contaminate the water being thrown out your tail pipe?

Are you asking if the HHO itself will contaminate the water exhiting our exhaust?
If by water you mean the water created as the H+H+O molecules recombine to form water vapor when cooled, no I don't see how, as they are one in the same. Speaking independently of the other gasses that are allready present in the exhaust stream. Seeing as the water vapor created is there due to the presence of the H & O atoms that we are injecting into the engine, and thus out the exhaust stream at which time are recombining into the moleculer state of water as they cool.

It's still HHO it's now just H2O (Water), unless of course they pick up carbon, or CO2, etc. along the way and bind to those molecules, then yes I could see how it could be contaminated at that time.

Definately perplexing!

[Q-Hack!]

Hrm... You raise an interesting point.
But don't our tailpipes allready aoutput a certain ammount of water vapor as it is? So then wouldn't that water vapor also be contaminated as well if this were the case?

However you state:


Are you asking if the HHO itself will contaminate the water exhiting our exhaust?
If by water you mean the water created as the H+H+O molecules recombine to form water vapor when cooled, no I don't see how, as they are one in the same. Speaking independently of the other gasses that are allready present in the exhaust stream. Seeing as the water vapor created is there due to the presence of the H & O atoms that we are injecting into the engine, and thus out the exhaust stream at which time are recombining into the moleculer state of water as they cool.

It's still HHO it's now just H2O (Water), unless of course they pick up carbon, or CO2, etc. along the way and bind to those molecules, then yes I could see how it could be contaminated at that time.

Definately perplexing!

Another thing to keep in mind is that while CO2 is a greenhouse gas, carbon mixed with soil is an excellent fertilizer. So, any carbon mixed in the water that drops from the tail pipe, it will end up helping the environment.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/01/eprida_new_sust.php
http://www.eprida.com/home/explanation.php4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_carbon

[jerzhere]

It's still HHO it's now just H2O (Water), unless of course they pick up carbon, or CO2, etc. along the way and bind to those molecules, then yes I could see how it could be contaminated at that time.

Definately perplexing!

Yea, that's what I mean. Not the HHO by itself but the pollutants that may mix with it during the burn process. I'm thinking we should test the exhaust water to see what is in it to assure we are not adding insult to injury.

[y_not]

Yea, that's what I mean. Not the HHO by itself but the pollutants that may mix with it during the burn process. I'm thinking we should test the exhaust water to see what is in it to assure we are not adding insult to injury.

Sure, definitely.
The real issue here though is how are we, the garage experimenter going to get it tested? I certainly can't afford it!

Any ideas, cheap ways to do it? That's kinda what this thread's about, finding a way to test for CR+6, etc.. without spending boku bucks, but still having an accurate reading.

[Shnerdly]

Greetings Everyone

I'm new to the forum but not too new to the subject of HHO. I've been playing with it for a couple of years now.

Why does the site keep kicking me off? I'm trying to read and respond and I have to keep logging back in.

This thread is probably the most important thing I have ever read on the HHO topic. The point of running a car on water is to eliminate the pollutants normaly found in the internal combustion engine while burning fossil fuels. If we are just trading the pollutants we create, there is no point.

The use of sugars or citric acids to eliminate the CR+6 needs to be researched and test methods developed to know that our waste is safe.

As to CR+6 in the H20 in the exhaust of the engine, I think some testing might be in order but, I don't know how the CR+6 would get there. It is not a gas but a contaminant produced in the electrolyte used during the electrolysis process. Only the gas is transported to the engine so the CR+6 should not be present in the exhaust. There is no process inside the engine that should produce the CR+6 som my opinion is that the H2O in the exhaust should be distilled water, only H2O with nothing else in it. The extremely minor particles of iron that you would get from wear in the engine would not be going throug any electrolysis so it should come out the tail pipe as iron.

I am going to try to contact someone at the U of M here and see if they can test the exhast and also to see if they can offer an inexpensive way of testing the used electrolyte for CR+6.

[Q-Hack!]

Greetings Everyone

I'm new to the forum but not too new to the subject of HHO. I've been playing with it for a couple of years now.

Why does the site keep kicking me off? I'm trying to read and respond and I have to keep logging back in.

This thread is probably the most important thing I have ever read on the HHO topic. The point of running a car on water is to eliminate the pollutants normaly found in the internal combustion engine while burning fossil fuels. If we are just trading the pollutants we create, there is no point.

The use of sugars or citric acids to eliminate the CR+6 needs to be researched and test methods developed to know that our waste is safe.

As to CR+6 in the H20 in the exhaust of the engine, I think some testing might be in order but, I don't know how the CR+6 would get there. It is not a gas but a contaminant produced in the electrolyte used during the electrolysis process. Only the gas is transported to the engine so the CR+6 should not be present in the exhaust. There is no process inside the engine that should produce the CR+6 som my opinion is that the H2O in the exhaust should be distilled water, only H2O with nothing else in it. The extremely minor particles of iron that you would get from wear in the engine would not be going throug any electrolysis so it should come out the tail pipe as iron.

I am going to try to contact someone at the U of M here and see if they can test the exhast and also to see if they can offer an inexpensive way of testing the used electrolyte for CR+6.

Sorry, I can't help you with your being kicked off problem...

There are small test kits you can buy for $21 that test for Cr(VI) http://www.hach.com/hc/search.product.details.invoker/PackagingCode=1252700/NewLinkLabel=Chromium+Test+Kit,+Color+Cube,+0.2-1.0+mg&frasl%3BL,+50+tests These are well within the realm of affordability for the average garage experimenter. While it wont test the gases coming out of the tail pipe, you could easily collect the water dripping from it to test.

[Shnerdly]

There are small test kits you can buy for $21 that test for Cr(VI) http://www.hach.com/hc/search.product.details.invoker/PackagingCode=1252700/NewLinkLabel=Chromium+Test+Kit,+Color+Cube,+0.2-1.0+mg&frasl%3BL,+50+tests These are well within the realm of affordability for the average garage experimenter. While it wont test the gases coming out of the tail pipe, you could easily collect the water dripping from it to test.

I called the company in the above link and spoke to one of their "Technical People" named Kevin. He assured me that this kit will test specifically for CR+6. He said it will NOT detect other kinds of Chromium, only hexavalent.

I placed the order and should receive it in a couple of days.

The cost was 21.09 + 9.95 shipping and 1.42 tax. It does 50 tests. Thats only $0.65 per test. Definitely affordable.

I'll post again when the kit gets here.

[Q-Hack!]

I called the company in the above link and spoke to one of their "Technical People" named Kevin. He assured me that this kit will test specifically for CR+6. He said it will NOT detect other kinds of Chromium, only hexavalent.

I placed the order and should receive it in a couple of days.

The cost was 21.09 + 9.95 shipping and 1.42 tax. It does 50 tests. Thats only $0.65 per test. Definitely affordable.

I'll post again when the kit gets here.

I haven't purchased the kit yet myself. (Found out about them just after I took a load of electrolyte to the Hazmat). I am curious about the claim that sugar can neutralize Cr(VI). When you get your test kit, maybe you can do a quick check and let us know how well that works.