Sudden loss of compression! only 20miles of hho

[deadcorolla]

I recently had my 4 cell working in my 89 Toyota Corolla and it died last night. I had it towed and check the compression and got 0 0 0 70 and a wet test read 0 0 0 105. This Sucks!:mad: The engine has about 30,000 miles on it :(
The HHO cells were only on there for about 20 miles.:mad::eek:

I don't know what happened yet. Maybe water got in the engine? Maybe it skipped the timing belt? I've heard no ill effects of HHO and so much goodness about it. One thing I didn't do was tune the carb for the hho. I just wanted to drive around and feel any difference. I don't think the hho would have washed the oil of the cylinder and caused the rings to be destroyed.
There was no indication of malfunction. It just died on the spot.
Any Advice?

[daddymikey1975]

post some pics of your spark plugs..

it's unlikely that HHO caused this.

what all mods do you have on your toyota besides the hho cell??

we need a description of your setup in order to make some educated guesses.

mike

[gashead]

I recently had my 4 cell working in my 89 Toyota Corolla and it died last night. I had it towed and check the compression and got 0 0 0 70 and a wet test read 0 0 0 105. This Sucks!:mad: The engine has about 30,000 miles on it :(
The HHO cells were only on there for about 20 miles.:mad::eek:

I don't know what happened yet. Maybe water got in the engine? Maybe it skipped the timing belt? I've heard no ill effects of HHO and so much goodness about it. One thing I didn't do was tune the carb for the hho. I just wanted to drive around and feel any difference. I don't think the hho would have washed the oil of the cylinder and caused the rings to be destroyed.
There was no indication of malfunction. It just died on the spot.
Any Advice?

if you lost compression in three of the four cylinders it seems you blew the head gasket

[daddymikey1975]

if you lost compression in three of the four cylinders it seems you blew the head gasket

that was my initial thought as well..

how's your antifreeze look?? or your oil ??

these could help tell if it's head gasket related as well...


mike

[protecheqp]

Did it make any noise ? had a guy drop a washer in his carb took out 4 cylnders of a v8

[redrat100]

As said before, sounds like a head gasket. A good indicator would be to check your oil. If the dipstick looks like it has vanilla milshake on it instead of oil, it is most likely a gasket. Or worse, a cracked head or block.

OR... Did your engne eat some mounting hardware for your HHO inlet hose?

Good luck $$$$$$$

[deadcorolla]

yeah all of this sounds good.

The oil looks OK, the antifreeze looks good, and the mounting hardware is in place. I have a 32/36 Weber Carb and all the emission removed, besides that its stock. I hope its the head gasket and not the piston rings!
This engine is pretty fresh and there have been no other problems lately. There was no noise when it happened, it just died. The silent but deadly kind :rolleyes:

I would point to the hho because everything was fine until I installed the cells.
Is this a coincidence?

The plugs look fine, and look like normal condition. I will post some pic's soon

[gashead]

yeah all of this sounds good.

The oil looks OK, the antifreeze looks good, and the mounting hardware is in place. I have a 32/36 Weber Carb and all the emission removed, besides that its stock. I hope its the head gasket and not the piston rings!
This engine is pretty fresh and there have been no other problems lately. There was no noise when it happened, it just died. The silent but deadly kind :rolleyes:

I would point to the hho because everything was fine until I installed the cells.
Is this a coincidence?

The plugs look fine, and look like normal condition. I will post some pic's soon

it depends where the head gasket blows if the water will run into the cylinders, when it blows away from the water jacket it will just loose compression, it is rare to loose 3 cylinders though, usually 2 loose it. what does the engine sound like when you spin it over with the starter, does it spin over extremely fast or just normal

[Michaeljp86]

I just had a bad head gasket on my jimmy, I havent been using hho for a few years but ran it alot in it before when I was in school. Ever since I bought it I had a feeling it had a small leak in a head gasket.

Ive had salt water get sucked into my engine a few times and never had any problems. and everything looked fine when I changed head gaskets.

Pull the radiator cap and crank it over, if it blows bubbles then you probably have a bad head gasket. Could be valve problems too, I doubt HHO caused any of it unless you are making a massive amount of hho.

[overtaker]

I am not a mechanic but is the electrolyte in your boosters low? Did the electrolyte siphon into the motor? I don't know if this would cause the problems your experiencing or not. Just thinking out loud. Best of luck.

[Michaeljp86]

I am not a mechanic but is the electrolyte in your boosters low? Did the electrolyte siphon into the motor? I don't know if this would cause the problems your experiencing or not. Just thinking out loud. Best of luck.

Alot of water would lock up the engine but if it was getting a little water it would vaporize when the gas burns raising compression and could blow a head gasket, maybe crack a head.

[deadcorolla]

The Cells are fresh and I didn't run them very long on the car. I'm using the Water4Gas design, it has a line with a ribbed anchor inserted at one end and the other to the bubbler valve so I would think that would have kept out water although I was not using a separate bubbler. I looked at the vinyl line to see if there was any moister and didn't really see much. Yeah, I would have thought that some strange pressure or heat created and blew the head gasket, but the wet compression test determined that cylinders 1,2,and 3 had 0 and #4 had 105. :mad:

Yes the engine sounds like its freewheeling (constant) when I start it. A classic sound of no compression.

here is a picture of the spark plug on cylinder #1

I will keep everybody informed and take lots of pictures when I remove the cylinder head.

Thanks for any input:)

[jericoriver]

I would check first for a broken timing belt or chain. Pull the dist. cap and spin the motor over, see if the rotor is turning.

[daddymikey1975]

I wonder what the white 'corrosive' looking stuff is on the outer electrode of that plug in the second picture ??
the plug doesn't look like it got too hot, but that white stuff could be tell-tale..

his hands don't look nearly dirty enough to be an engine swapping man HAHA... I can't get my hands that clean after working on my cars.. at least not for a week HAHA..



I would check first for a broken timing belt or chain. Pull the dist. cap and spin the motor over, see if the rotor is turning.

broken timing components would not contribute to no compression.

the only things that contribute to compression are the piston rings, the valves staying closed and the head gasket (and head) being tight.

even if the timing belt had broken, it's VERY unlikely that he'd see no compression at all on 3 adjacent cylinders. more likely would be 1 and 3 or 2 and 4.

my money's on holes in the top of the pistons or a head gasket.

either way it still sucks.

hope you get it figured out.

mike

[Michaeljp86]

Was the water level low in your cell after this happened? The 2nd pic doesnt look good. if I was you I would pull the head off, should be easy on that engine.

I would drain the oil too, my oil looked fine after I did the head gaskets. I know antifreeze was in there but it looked fine. I drained almost 1 gal of antifreeze out of it. I has synthetic oil in it, maybe synthetic doesnt mix with antifreeze like normal oil.

[coffeeachiever]

Alot of water would lock up the engine but if it was getting a little water it would vaporize when the gas burns raising compression and could blow a head gasket, maybe crack a head.

I think what Overtaker is getting at is what the electrolyte will do to the metal components of an engine. Especially aluminum. What I got from his question was that he is concerned that the aluminum was damaged from the electrolyte being sucked into the intake.

[Roland Jacques]

I would check first for a broken timing belt or chain. Pull the dist. cap and spin the motor over, see if the rotor is turning.

Good sugestion, and quick easy test also. but with no noise :confused:
please keep us posted

[deadcorolla]

ha ha Orange GoJo dude! It does wonders to my hands!

thanks to all. Now time to find the wonders that lie in my combustion chamber:rolleyes:

and YES whatever happened it does SUCK.
now I'm suck driving my project car (85 RX-7) :cool: I wonder how well rotary's do on HHO? I am a little scared of hooking up my cells to it. I guess I would definitely use a separate bubbler this time.


Oh, and here are my cells that I have freshly build. Now that I've done this research and read some threads I can see why dry cells are the future. Does anybody have a link to a thread discussing how a dry cell works? Does it pass the water with electrolyte through it?

[cully]

umm arnt those 1 way valves the wrong way round ?
here (http://hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1088&d=1232323486)

shouldnt they let air into the cell to stop the cell sucking the bubbler water back.

the arrows shows it passing HHO out from the cell

or do my eyes lie

[hydrotinkerer]

Why would you have 2 different sets of valves? Do you have it hooked to manifold vacuum?

[deadcorolla]

huh? I thought you were supposed to put the valves facing up to keep pressure from blowing the top off. right?

one of those valves is the same just different brand. I found the blue ones a lot cheaper at Pet Smart! oh yeah!

[deadcorolla]

Hey Good News,:D

jericoriver you win !!!! I turned the engine with the dis. cap off and no movement. I took of the upper timing belt cover and WAAMMO !:eek: the belt is GONE! Cracked, Chipped, and from what I can tell two of the teeth have broken off.

My hypothesis is that I have a freewheeling engine so there is no noise when it broke and a constant sound when I try to start it, and therefore no bent valves!!

I estimate that the timing belt has about 4 year or 40,000 miles on it.
Don't let this happen to you. Check and Replace your timing belt NOW!

So when I replace the belt I will also adjust some of the nasty valve lash and hopefully have much better millage with a smoother running engine. This is of course IF the valves aren't bent.

Then its back with the HHO and I can finally see if I got any gains from this 4 pack.

[H2OPWR]

Hey Good News,:D

jericoriver you win !!!! I turned the engine with the dis. cap off and no movement. I took of the upper timing belt cover and WAAMMO !:eek: the belt is GONE! Cracked, Chipped, and from what I can tell two of the teeth have broken off.

My hypothesis is that I have a freewheeling engine so there is no noise when it broke and a constant sound when I try to start it, and therefore no bent valves!!

I estimate that the timing belt has about 4 year or 40,000 miles on it.
Don't let this happen to you. Check and Replace your timing belt NOW!

So when I replace the belt I will also adjust some of the nasty valve lash and hopefully have much better millage with a smoother running engine. This is of course IF the valves aren't bent.

Then its back with the HHO and I can finally see if I got any gains from this 4 pack.

From my experience you should be OK. With overhead cam engines there are 2 types. Interference and non interference engines. Most Toyota's are non interference engines meaning that there is no way the piston could hit a valve. I am not sure if yours is one but you have a great chance of an inexpensive repair.

Good Luck

[deadcorolla]

From my experience you should be OK. With overhead cam engines there are 2 types. Interference and non interference engines. Most Toyota's are non interference engines meaning that there is no way the piston could hit a valve. I am not sure if yours is one but you have a great chance of an inexpensive repair.

Good Luck

Thanks man, I hope its a non-interference. this is a 1989 4A-F engine.
Thanks for the info

[jericoriver]

Hey Good News,:D

jericoriver you win !!!! I turned the engine with the dis. cap off and no movement. I took of the upper timing belt cover and WAAMMO !:eek: the belt is GONE! Cracked, Chipped, and from what I can tell two of the teeth have broken off.

My hypothesis is that I have a freewheeling engine so there is no noise when it broke and a constant sound when I try to start it, and therefore no bent valves!!

I estimate that the timing belt has about 4 year or 40,000 miles on it.
Don't let this happen to you. Check and Replace your timing belt NOW!

So when I replace the belt I will also adjust some of the nasty valve lash and hopefully have much better millage with a smoother running engine. This is of course IF the valves aren't bent.

Then its back with the HHO and I can finally see if I got any gains from this 4 pack. Good, glad thats all it was.

[fuelangel]

The important thing to remember about hho is that not only does it increase the potential power of the combustion explosion it also increases the flame speed, that is the time from ignition spark to completion of the burn, petrol vapour is slow burning that is why ignition timing is set several degrees before top dead centre so that maximum benefit from the burn is received at or just after top dead centre, the addition of hho reduces the burn time considerably which means that max power is delivered Before top dead centre which in turn means the combustion explosion is trying to force the piston back down the way it came this means that combustion pressures are far exceeding design tolerances and set to cause damage to the engine, the weak point is the head gasket and usually the first to go. I am currently working on an old (pre electronics) 2000cc volvo engine to determine the optimum timing adjustment. A similar problem limits the amount of hho you should introduce to a diesel engine, i had a toyota diesel the showed a 30% increase in mpg until i tried putting more hho through and subsequently blew the head gasket (twice) i have also blown the head gasket on a petrol toyota and was then advised that toyotas are inherently weak when it comes to head gaskets.
Adjusting the timing (retarding) will also increase the effectiveness of hho again due to the flame speed, hope this helps.

[BioFarmer93]

You do realize you just responded to a thread that has been dead for close to three years now, right?

[Mr_The_Carper]

HHO can not destroy the engine. If too much gas the car becomes sluggish.
if a strong electrolyte enters the cylinders can destroy pistons.
-HHO clean soot and carbon deposits in the cylinders, the oil lasts longer, engine works quieter.
-my diesel engine a little smoke to cover oil and to control rods oil After installing hho because burned the carbon deposits who held by compression...
-now car go normal 10 000km with MOS2 LIQUI MOLY oil.."drink" a small amount of oil but it does not matter ... the car is going great....engine have 300 000km :D

-This is an example of what can happen in most situations.
-in your situation is a coincidence or the electrolyte in the input engine

[AnouraTheMarsupial]

:eek:!!!!!!!!!!

[ultra_efficient]

The important thing to remember about hho is that not only does it increase the potential power of the combustion explosion it also increases the flame speed, that is the time from ignition spark to completion of the burn, petrol vapour is slow burning that is why ignition timing is set several degrees before top dead centre so that maximum benefit from the burn is received at or just after top dead centre, the addition of hho reduces the burn time considerably which means that max power is delivered Before top dead centre which in turn means the combustion explosion is trying to force the piston back down the way it came this means that combustion pressures are far exceeding design tolerances and set to cause damage to the engine, the weak point is the head gasket and usually the first to go. I am currently working on an old (pre electronics) 2000cc volvo engine to determine the optimum timing adjustment. A similar problem limits the amount of hho you should introduce to a diesel engine, i had a toyota diesel the showed a 30% increase in mpg until i tried putting more hho through and subsequently blew the head gasket (twice) i have also blown the head gasket on a petrol toyota and was then advised that toyotas are inherently weak when it comes to head gaskets.
Adjusting the timing (retarding) will also increase the effectiveness of hho again due to the flame speed, hope this helps.

this is so true, this is why i prefer VVT engines or engines with their version of VVT but when tuning with a AFC i have never faced this problem.