Gas4Free

[redrat100]

I searched these forums but did not find much on the Gas4Free system. So, I am starting a thread. Please excuse the long post...

I am a bit of a skeptic regarding the wide spread claims of 40% to 100% mpg increases using a HHO generator in a car. But, I know enough about chemistry and engineering to understand that it just might work. Not wanting to spend a pile of cash on a pre-built set-up, I bought the Gas4Free e-books. I figured that the price was cheap enough for what I may learn.

I have three cars so I built three units per the instructions verbatim. In bench testing the first one I dutifully added the recommended 5 tablespoons of table salt to 1/2 liter distilled water (1/2 liter is all this unit will hold). As I connected it to a car battery gas just erupted from the plates. It looked like it was boiling. The elation stopped suddenly when I noticed the wires inside begin to glow. That was a few seconds before I heard a dull thump and saw a pretty bluish-orange ball of fire inside the generator. The housing contained the explosion, no bodily harm done other that a sudden adrenaline surge and the extreme urge need to urinate at the moment.

To make a long story short, after thanking God for a second chance I discovered this forum and read about NaOH. I experimented and settled on 1/16 teaspoon NaOH to 500ml water. The unit draws about 20amps and produces 1 liter of gas in about 5 minutes cold. Hot it puts out 1 liter in 4 minutes. It boils after 20 minutes.

Added a 30 amp pwm and installed it into my 1996 VW Jetta, 2.0L 5 spd just before Christmas. Now it draws about 12 amps, puts out 1 liter in 6 minutes and boils in an hour. So far I have noticed a <2.5% increase in mpg. Yawn.

My conclusions: a Gas4Free unit does not work if you follow the instructions to the letter. A lot of tweaking is needed, like plate prep, electrolyte mix, pwm, and other things that are not mentioned. But, the price for admission was worth it. As a skeptic my curiosity is piqued enough to keep dabbling with this HHO thing.

Any advice would be truly appreciated.

Red

[alpha-dog]

I searched these forums but did not find much on the Gas4Free system. So, I am starting a thread. Please excuse the long post...

I am a bit of a skeptic regarding the wide spread claims of 40% to 100% mpg increases using a HHO generator in a car. But, I know enough about chemistry and engineering to understand that it just might work. Not wanting to spend a pile of cash on a pre-built set-up, I bought the Gas4Free e-books. I figured that the price was cheap enough for what I may learn.

I have three cars so I built three units per the instructions verbatim. In bench testing the first one I dutifully added the recommended 5 tablespoons of table salt to 1/2 liter distilled water (1/2 liter is all this unit will hold). As I connected it to a car battery gas just erupted from the plates. It looked like it was boiling. The elation stopped suddenly when I noticed the wires inside begin to glow. That was a few seconds before I heard a dull thump and saw a pretty bluish-orange ball of fire inside the generator. The housing contained the explosion, no bodily harm done other that a sudden adrenaline surge and the extreme urge need to urinate at the moment.

To make a long story short, after thanking God for a second chance I discovered this forum and read about NaOH. I experimented and settled on 1/16 teaspoon NaOH to 500ml water. The unit draws about 20amps and produces 1 liter of gas in about 5 minutes cold. Hot it puts out 1 liter in 4 minutes. It boils after 20 minutes.

Added a 30 amp pwm and installed it into my 1996 VW Jetta, 2.0L 5 spd just before Christmas. Now it draws about 12 amps, puts out 1 liter in 6 minutes and boils in an hour. So far I have noticed a <2.5% increase in mpg. Yawn.

My conclusions: a Gas4Free unit does not work if you follow the instructions to the letter. A lot of tweaking is needed, like plate prep, electrolyte mix, pwm, and other things that are not mentioned. But, the price for admission was worth it. As a skeptic my curiosity is piqued enough to keep dabbling with this HHO thing.

Any advice would be truly appreciated.

Red

Build a dry cell. Painless uses ss switch plates, but you can order some nice 316 ss from scm. Use a plastic cutting board for the sides.

[jriggs_18]

Unfortunately all of the information that you gained via the gas4free books were available for free on the e-net @ no charge. At any rate, 2.5% percent increase could be due the weather, wind or gas quality, etc..... HHO does work, but not to the degree that some snake oil salesman will claim. I wish you the best on your journey. FWIW the sealed series cell (dry cell) is going to be your bet.

[redrat100]

[QUOTE=Shane Jackson;21370]Also without a EFIE you are not going to see much MPG gain....QUOTE]

Thanks for the input- Starting over is not a bad idea. The optimist in me does not want to pass judgement on HHO after using one bad design. But, the skeptic in me says "I told you so".

I've read that using an efie leans out the mixture. How do you know that your mpg gains are not strictly from this device? (Leaner mixture = less gasoline) Also, these gizmos require you to splice into the O2 sensor wires. Isn't that illegal and considered 'tampering with smog equipment'?

Just trying to learn the truth here, thanks for your patience.

[daddymikey1975]

As of Nov. 15 1990 Federal law prohibits anyone from removing or rendering inoperative any emission control device or element of design that is installed on a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle engine...

see this link: http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/donttamper.pdf

we're not removing or rendering inoperative anything to do with emissions....

For your concerns about the EFIE being the sole grantor of MPG gains, may i suggest reading (in their entirety) these posts...

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=61&highlight=smith

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=771

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=183

based on these member's results, I can only assume that we've got tons of experience here telling us that it is not the efie alone creating the gains.

basically its like this.. when the HHO is added to the car, it results in a more complete burn of the air/fuel mixture. This more complete burn is detected by the o2 sensors and the computer compensates (because it's programmed to) by adding in even MORE fuel to keep it's stoich mixture of 14.7:1.. well, by adding the extra fuel to keep it's mixture proper it's effectively using MORE fuel than when the HHO was added...

for obvious reasons this is counterproductive. So we add the EFIE to adjust the o2 sensor to compensate for this perceived lean condition.

If we were to adjust the EFIE alone without HHO (NOT recommended) you'd effectively be starving the engine for fuel and you'd lose power... but in addition to that your combustion chambers would get extremely hot due to the lack of fuel present.. (the extra fuel aids in keeping things cool in there, that's why we have catalytic converters..to expend the extra unburnt fuel)

so when we adjust the EFIE with HHO the HHO does help to keep the cylinder temps at bay while catalyzing the air/fuel mixture so it can burn more completely.

I hope this answers some questions for you.

anything else you need, please ask, we're here to help.
mike

[redrat100]

Thanks for the reply on the efie question. Also for the thread links. Mr Smith's has my attention because my Gas4Free unit is in my '96 Jetta. Started lookig for a pre-built efie that I can fit into my gauge cluster.

Another neophite question: Is there an HHO glossary somewhere? I misplaced my decoder ring and am having a time with all of the acronyms being thrown around. Tero Cell? Amoeba Cell? Smacks Cell? OU? MMW? I figured out PWM already. Only because I bought one.

[mobman]

Thanks for the reply on the efie question. Also for the thread links. Mr Smith's has my attention because my Gas4Free unit is in my '96 Jetta. Started lookig for a pre-built efie that I can fit into my gauge cluster.

Another neophite question: Is there an HHO glossary somewhere? I misplaced my decoder ring and am having a time with all of the acronyms being thrown around. Tero Cell? Amoeba Cell? Smacks Cell? OU? MMW? I figured out PWM already. Only because I bought one.

Lol im up there with you bud.

Some of them are wikipedias on HHO all by themself! lol OU = I owe you?? Mike...I owe you..you owe you....we all owe you?? We owe you thanks for bringing great knowledge to this thread sensei! :D

Anywho...i havent even hooked up my HHO generator yet but im running an EFIE by itself which most of the boys in this field dont like me doing...but I got an exhaust temp gauge setup so once that bad boy goes past the norm...im turning that sucker off! lol so far everyting is ok it seems though but im not going on the extreme with the adjustments.

[Farmercal]

Thanks for the reply on the efie question. Also for the thread links. Mr Smith's has my attention because my Gas4Free unit is in my '96 Jetta. Started lookig for a pre-built efie that I can fit into my gauge cluster.

Another neophite question: Is there an HHO glossary somewhere? I misplaced my decoder ring and am having a time with all of the acronyms being thrown around. Tero Cell? Amoeba Cell? Smacks Cell? OU? MMW? I figured out PWM already. Only because I bought one.Tero Cell – Similar to a dry cell (Electrolyte inside the plates – not outside)
Amoeba Cell – Dry cell but small (same as above)
Smacks Cell – Wet bath cell that resides in a 4 inch PVC pipe container (Electrolyte around plates)
OU - Over Unity (getting more energy out of a process than was put into it – “Painless")
MMW – Millimeter per minutes per watt

[daddymikey1975]

just a couple other acronyms that we may throw around

NaOH = Sodim hydroxide... lye.. crystalized drain cleaner must be 100% pure.. used as caustic in the electrolyte
KOH = Potassium hydroxide another excellent caustic for electrolyte

if you have any other questions about our abbreviations, don't hesitate to ask.. we all knew as little as you currently do at one time...

spend a bunch of time reading... you'll learn a bunch
mike

[redrat100]

MMW – Millimeter per minutes per watt

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. "Millimeter per minutes per watt"? How does a linear measurement over time and power figure into all of this? I searched the forums for 'MMW' for an explanation but it did not return any hits because the term is too common. This leads me to believe that this calculation bears some significance to gas production because it is used so frequently.

Could a mentor please explain this concept in detail with an example calculation please?

[Painless]

This is an expression of how much HHO is produced in one minute for each watt of electricity used, an example:

Lets say our generator produces 1 LPM of HHO, that's 1000 ML and uses 20 amps on a 12 volt setup:

12 (volts) times 20 (amps) = 240 watts of power (per minute)

1000 (ML) divided by 240 (watts) = 4.16 ML of HHO produced each minute per watt of power. Hence, this cells MMW is 4.16.

A higher number indicates higher efficiency.

Russ.

[Q-Hack!]

Or if you hate math and just want to get a quick answer...

http://www.watervan.co.uk/tools.php

[redrat100]

This is an expression of how much HHO is produced in one minute for each watt of electricity used,

A higher number indicates higher efficiency.

Russ.

Thank you for the explanation! It seems that Farmercal meant to say Milliliters per Minute per Watt instead of "Millimeters per Minute per Watt". A subtle but significant difference in terms. It makes sense now.

[redrat100]

Here are some numbers for anyone who is thinking about a Gas4Free unit. (IMHO, don't waste your time like I did)

I have been tracking the mpg on all three of my cars since September to get a good baseline mpg. These stats are only on my Jetta. Pre-G4F average mileage is 28.73 mpg. 2,745 miles with 10 fill-ups. Post G4F installation average mileage is 29.45 mpg. 861 miles with 3 fill-ups. That's a whopping 2.5% increase folks! (no EFIE yet either) 1.16 MMW. :mad:

Attached are some pictures for posterity's sake. #1 is a bench test. #2 is the G4F unit installed with a 50 amp pwm. #3 is an adapter I fabricated to attach a water temp bulb to the unit (if you want one let me know) #4 is a gauge cluster on the A frame. Amps, temp and vacuum. I am pulling the vacuum gauge out since it doesn't read anything. My inlet hose connected upstream of the throttle body.

I have one more experiment before I toss out this unit. The G4F e-book did not mention plate prep at all. I took apart one of the other ones I built to cross sand the plates. After washing the plates in toluene to de-grease them, I re-assembled it. Then I mummy wrapped it with some r/c model airplane heat shrink wing covering. Then I put it into an open bath and let it run until I saw no more orange iron oxide precipitate. I'm in the process of sealing the housing back up. Will let you know how it turns out.

[daddymikey1975]

redrat
it seems that you have above average building skills.

You should seriously keep your plates, get some gasket material (.040" shower pan liner seems to work well) and some end plate material (you can use the clear acrylic that you've used before if you have scrap pieces, however the milky white cutting board at wal mart ($10) seems to work well also. and assemble yourself a dry cell..

you'll be much better for wear. you already have PWM and the other electronics, etc.. should only take an afternoon to asemble as you already have the plates.. they can be modified rather easily to accomodate a dry setup.

just my .02
mike

[redrat100]

redrat
it seems that you have above average building skills.

You should seriously keep your plates... and assemble yourself a dry cell...

mike

Thank you! A little of my background: my first career was as an FAA licensed aircraft mechanic. I then moved into a technical position doing fabrication and assembly. Now I am a CAD engineer with a large aerospace company doing mechanical design work. I also have a CAD/prototyping side business.

Being that this is the second time you told me to build a dry cell, and knowing that they don't hand out mentor badges to just anybody, and since I already have every thing I need in hand, I will abandon the Gas4Free design and just count it as an initiation fee.

[coffeeachiever]

Being that this is the second time you told me to build a dry cell, and knowing that they don't hand out mentor badges to just anybody, and since I already have every thing I need in hand, I will abandon the Gas4Free design and just count it as an initiation fee.

Go with the dry cell. If you don't do it now, you will inevitably come to that conclusion on your own later.

[daddymikey1975]

I will abandon the Gas4Free design and just count it as an initiation fee.

at least you learned from a better cell than my smack's booster learning experiment. LOL


mike

[coffeeachiever]

at least you learned from a better cell than my smack's booster learning experiment. LOL


mike

I'm on the same page with ya Mike. I started with fender washers and baking soda. At least I learned a different way to boil water. :rolleyes:

[Painless]

I'm on the same page with ya Mike. I started with fender washers and baking soda. At least I learned a different way to boil water. :rolleyes:

Now the truth comes out, is that why you're called Coffeeachiever?

[redrat100]

This is an expression of how much HHO is produced in one minute for each watt of electricity used, an example:

A higher number indicates higher efficiency.

Russ.

Thanks again. So, three variables are measured. Liters per minute of gas production, Voltage and Amperage. I measure LPM with a liter plastic bottle in a bucket of water, simple enough. Without a PWM, volts and amps are measured at the electrolizer terminals. Easy enough also. I am also running a PWM. Where do I measure volts and amps to get a true measurement of cell efficiency, before or after the PWM? Measuring after the PWM at the electrolizer terminals would read lower volts and amps for the same output. Seems like cheating.

[H2OPWR]

Thanks again. So, three variables are measured. Liters per minute of gas production, Voltage and Amperage. I measure LPM with a liter plastic bottle in a bucket of water, simple enough. Without a PWM, volts and amps are measured at the electrolizer terminals. Easy enough also. I am also running a PWM. Where do I measure volts and amps to get a true measurement of cell efficiency, before or after the PWM? Measuring after the PWM at the electrolizer terminals would read lower volts and amps for the same output. Seems like cheating.

Measure the volts at the source of your power supply. After the PWM will give inaccurate results as the DC voltmeter expects to see steady power not pulsed. Any power loss due to the PWM's power usage and the resistance of the wires must be included in your results for accurate current usage. After all without the electronics and the wire you would not be using any extra current.

[daddymikey1975]

Thanks again. So, three variables are measured. Liters per minute of gas production, Voltage and Amperage. I measure LPM with a liter plastic bottle in a bucket of water, simple enough. Without a PWM, volts and amps are measured at the electrolizer terminals. Easy enough also. I am also running a PWM. Where do I measure volts and amps to get a true measurement of cell efficiency, before or after the PWM? Measuring after the PWM at the electrolizer terminals would read lower volts and amps for the same output. Seems like cheating.

here's a simple test for you.

hook up your gen to the PWM. Measure your source voltage (before PWM) while the PWM is on 100% duty cycle.

measure the voltage AFTER the PWM (still 100% duty cycle).

the difference will be the voltage drop caused by the PWM.

when the PWM is under 100% duty cycle, it's safe to assume the second voltage reading (at 100%) is what the PWM is actually putting out (pulsed of course) even though a DC voltmeter will tell you differently (as H2OPWR said)

and for current, you can take your measurement before the PWM or after and see if it differs.. my guess is the PWM will use a little and if that's the case, then we should calculate MMW with this in mind because we're calculating the efficiency of the whole system.

just my .02
mike

[redrat100]

Last week I opened up my G4F unit because it needed a good cleaning. Since I had already built up a cross sanded / wrapped electrode assembly I put that in. My intention was to run that configuration while building a dry cell. I drove around for an hour or so. The first thing I noticed is that the amps went down from 12a to 5a. It also stayed cooler, 140 F after 1/2 hour. I then did some production testing. 1 liter in 24 minutes. .52 MMW. Bad, really bad. I dialed up the current to 15a. 1 liter in 6 minutes. Temp was 110 F after 15 minutes. .093 MMW. (Volts and Amps were measured after the PWM by the way. I did not re-wire any thing yet.)

Some observations about wrapping a cell: It does cut down current leakage. The wrapping also behaves like a duct forcing the bubbles straight up between the plates and drawing in water from the bottom. A good thing. But this is what killed it for me though- Foam. Lots and lots of foam made up of insanely small bubbles. At one point it emptied 2/3 of the water by pushing the foam through out into my bucket. I added an ounce of Rug Doctor anti foam(carpet shampoo additive), no help at all.

Since I can't beat this freakish foam without more time and money, and I don't want NaOH pumped into my engine, I am not going to waste any more effort on the Gas4Free wet cell design and have disabled it in my car. Back to taking more baseline mpg measurements.

My conclusions as a skeptic: Gas4Free improved my MPG 3.5% after 3 tanks of gas, without an efie. This design needs a lot more improvement than what is described in the e-book. IMHO, do not waste your time and money on Gas4Free. Will post soon on the dry cell...

RIP Gas4Free.