Less than 3MMW with My EBN Dry Cell

[Gforce]

I have taken a step backwards. I made a 13Plate Wet cell that works pretty well. I get close to 5MMW at 1L/min with very little leakage due to glueing acrylic plates to the sides and bottom.
I bought a 16Plate EBN Dry cell that I had to assemble thinking I would focus on ECU challenges rather than cell design. Plates are 6"X6" with a single 3/8" hole in the bottom and three 3/8" holes centered at the top. Gaskets are .060" thick rubber. It is configured +NNNN-NNNN+NNNN-. It uses brass bolts to connect the power plate corners so no high resistance connections. I paid those dues with the wet cell. I cannot get more than 1L/min 12V @ 30A . I use KOH and distilled water. Here is what I have tried.
I changed from 3/8" 90 fittings to straight, which before was less than 1L/min
Cleansing at 12V @ 30A for many hours.
Conditioning starting at 5Amps with PWM and incremented 1A every 30min
I have replaced the Elyte at least 3 times.
I have dissassembled it and cleaned it. Soaked the plates in Muriatic acid.
Rinsed and reassembled. Same results.
I tried a circulation pump. Gas output drops a few percent.
I removed the flashback arrestor to ensure no back pressure.
Current draw increases about 30% when cell heats but does not go over 105F
gas output does not go up. Some water vapor but it cannot be steam at this temp. I am at a loss. I thought today perhaps I had over tightened the bolts and loosened them all up till it leaked and then gently tightened. No change.
It seems hard to believe that this is the best this cell can do. Am I missing something? Given what I have learned about zero leakage dry cell designs I can do better and spend less time building my own. :eek:

[H2OPWR]

I have taken a step backwards. I made a 13Plate Wet cell that works pretty well. I get close to 5MMW at 1L/min with very little leakage due to glueing acrylic plates to the sides and bottom.
I bought a 16Plate EBN Dry cell that I had to assemble thinking I would focus on ECU challenges rather than cell design. Plates are 6"X6" with a single 3/8" hole in the bottom and three 3/8" holes centered at the top. Gaskets are .060" thick rubber. It is configured +NNNN-NNNN+NNNN-. It uses brass bolts to connect the power plate corners so no high resistance connections. I paid those dues with the wet cell. I cannot get more than 1L/min 12V @ 30A . I use KOH and distilled water. Here is what I have tried.
I changed from 3/8" 90 fittings to straight, which before was less than 1L/min
Cleansing at 12V @ 30A for many hours.
Conditioning starting at 5Amps with PWM and incremented 1A every 30min
I have replaced the Elyte at least 3 times.
I have dissassembled it and cleaned it. Soaked the plates in Muriatic acid.
Rinsed and reassembled. Same results.
I tried a circulation pump. Gas output drops a few percent.
I removed the flashback arrestor to ensure no back pressure.
Current draw increases about 30% when cell heats but does not go over 105F
gas output does not go up. Some water vapor but it cannot be steam at this temp. I am at a loss. I thought today perhaps I had over tightened the bolts and loosened them all up till it leaked and then gently tightened. No change.
It seems hard to believe that this is the best this cell can do. Am I missing something? Given what I have learned about zero leakage dry cell designs I can do better and spend less time building my own. :eek:

Although I respect SmartScarecrow very much I beleive the EBN cell with the three top gas outlet holes allows way too much current leakage through the 4 holes. Try painting the holes with PlasticKote tool dip available at lowes for $7.00 per can. It has worked great for me.

[Gforce]

Thanks for the idea. I plan to put a tube to block two of the top holes.
I have read plastic coat does not hold up with time. I used 3M Marine on my wet cell. Just buy the fast drying kind. Waiting 24hrs was a drag.

Also check out Smack's GenIV vids EletrikRide on youtube
My not so humble opinion is he is going to have heat problems above 1L/min.

Also checkout ssfuturescott youtube vids. Very impressive.

Thanks

[H2OPWR]

Thanks for the idea. I plan to put a tube to block two of the top holes.
I have read plastic coat does not hold up with time. I used 3M Marine on my wet cell. Just buy the fast drying kind. Waiting 24hrs was a drag.

Also check out Smack's GenIV vids EletrikRide on youtube
My not so humble opinion is he is going to have heat problems above 1L/min.

Also checkout ssfuturescott youtube vids. Very impressive.

Thanks

Marine Goop will not hold up over time. I used to use it. I have had it completely dissolve in under 100 hours of run time. The Plastic Tool dip I am using had absolutely no ill affects after 60 hours of run time some of it with up to 10 cups of KOH per gallon of distilled water.

[Painless]

Firstly, I recommend you switch to at least 5 neutrals. Secondly, what thickness are your gaskets? Going to 0.40" will improve efficiency if yours are thicker.

Russ.

[Gforce]

Gaskets are .06" rubber. they compress fairly easy. I have tightened on the bolts and not seen much affects on gas flow. Looking closer at my reservoir I notice a combination of what Scarecrow calls micro bubbles and big bubbles. As the cell heats the elyte turns cloudy due to all the micro bubbles. Not sure if they are generated by the leakage or if this is not a by product of all electrolysis.
Tom

[spicerman]

Hi Guys! I have a 16 plate cell that I built with SS cover plates Like the one in the video that painless built. I used 1/8 cork for gaskets instead of rubber. I'm running +NNNN- I tried 5N but my plate voltage was too low. (Thick gaskets, 4 N gave me a plate voltage of 2.4-2.7) I hooked it up to the tank. (I used 3/8 90Deg. Hose barbs top & bottom) and powered it up.(12vdc at 4 amps). and ran it for about 2 hours. No Brown Gooo, Didn't get hot, slightly worm to the touch. Gas production was good. Then I added more KOH (1 TS./LTR) until the amps came up to 8. It ran good for about another half hour as gas production steadelly increased. (I watch bubbles in the bubbler) Then the amps started to drop off and the cell had micro bubbles coming out the top and bottom Holes. I pulled the plug and let it sit until the bubbles came out as the water flowed back in. I took off like normal when I powered it up again. In about 15 sec. the bubbles were choking the cell again. What do you think it is ?? I have read other posts that have used 4 cups / Gal. TALK TO ME!!! Please!:o

[Gforce]

I think I found my problem. I put the plates together in the wrong order. I have five Neutrals in the first group and three in the last.
I made a little manifold insert out of a pen tube that fit in the holes well. I got a modest increase in efficiency. It was driving me crazy because I could tell something fundamental was wrong. I got out my volt meter and started measuring the drop across each plates because I was worried one of the holes in my manifold didn't line up and I might have a dry cell. I started getting 2volts on most cells and suddenly 3volts. I feel pretty dumb. I am going to make one of those videos listing all the mistakes I have made. I have made them all but I have learned one heck of a lot.

Spicerman, don't sweat the micro bubbles. I suspect they come from leakage but have nothing to prove it. The big bubbles are what produce. You are always going to see more tiny bubbles at low amps. You are going to need at least 10amps (120watts) to get any kind production started. Add more electrolyte and crank er up.

[Painless]

Good to see somebody benefiting from my work. It sounds like you've found a good configuration for those wider gaskets. How is the cork holding up and may I ask your source for that material?

If you do make a video, please post it as a response to my building video as it will help others to save time and head banging :-). Please also point out that your change in the number of neutrals is because of the wider plate gap.

The gap is a weakness in my Lowes plate design, the angled edges can short together with closer gaps. I ended up using 0.040" PVC for my gaskets but had shorting issues with more than 13 plates. Unfortunately, larger gaps do mean a loss of efficiency due to the extra electrolyte resistance (hence you needed less neutrals).
Best of luck in your experiments!

Russ.

[Gforce]

I wanted to close the book on this thread even if no one reads it.
I reordered my plates and fell for the temptation to make two changes at once. I made a small manifold tube aka Smack/Jdmusician for the lower holes and when I tested it all day I hit 5MMW. Because I have only four neutrals it wasn't until I reduced the voltage down below 11.5Volts by connecting back up my pwm. Even with no switching it reduces the voltage across the cell stack by .6 Volts.
May not be impressive but when I was struggling just a few days ago to hit 3MMW it was a big deal for me. I will pull the tube out and run a base line test.
Thanks for the help.

[H2OPWR]

Sorry you feel that way. There are alot of members here that care about every member that wants and needs help. It just seems that over the last couple of weeks everyone is stuck arguing with Stu about Over Unity. There are so many new OU threads posted that it pushes the people trying to help and get help off the first page. I appologize for the entire forum if you feel as though no help was available. The members here are a great group and are just momentarily stuck in an unfortunate rut. Please stick around and offer your results and ask your questions. We will get back to what we do best soon. I for one am glad that you have almost doubled your results.

Larry

[daddymikey1975]

I wanted to close the book on this thread even if no one reads it.
I reordered my plates and fell for the temptation to make two changes at once. I made a small manifold tube aka Smack/Jdmusician for the lower holes and when I tested it all day I hit 5MMW. Because I have only four neutrals it wasn't until I reduced the voltage down below 11.5Volts by connecting back up my pwm. Even with no switching it reduces the voltage across the cell stack by .6 Volts.
May not be impressive but when I was struggling just a few days ago to hit 3MMW it was a big deal for me. I will pull the tube out and run a base line test.
Thanks for the help.

I too will apologize for the rut the forum has been in.. it seems as though there's another member here who's stuck forcing his opinion on others.

Your PWM doesn't 'lower' the voltage.. (it may create a slight loss even at 100% duty cycle) but what you may be measuring is a superficial voltage when you run the PWM below 100% duty cycle. The voltmeter can't adjust to read the voltage (read latency) correctly when it's pulsed.

May I also suggest that you use a bit of a higher voltage for testing.. try to setup your cells for 13 - 14 volts or as close as you can get to your car's alternator voltage. I bet this thing will take off if you do that. Then you can add the other neutral to control heat, up the production a little.. and I bet you get up a little higher in MMW...

I hope this helps
mike

[H2OPWR]

Mike is correct I got stuck in the rut of thinking my voltage was lower to my cell with a PWM. Your volt meter is expecting to see a constant DC current. When it is pulsed with a PWM it sees 13 then 0 then 13 again. It is doing its best to compinsate but can not. I always measure the voltage at the source. You will lose some voltage depending on the resistance in the wiring between the source voltage and the cell but that is all a part of current draw and needs to be in the calculations. I also agree that you should try upping the voltage if you can to get as close to the automotive voltage as possible. It made a huge difference in my ability to draw amps in my cell.

[Gforce]

Every FET (the electronic switch in a PWM) has an ON resistance RDSON. The voltage drop will therefore depend on current flowing but I guarantee there is a voltage drop across it even when no switching is going on. The FET I am using has an RDSON of .018 Ohms and at 30Amps ohms law tells us that there will be a .54 voltage drop across it.

[alpha-dog]

That's right the pwm's I have been looking at all drop about 2/3~3/4 of a volt with the system on.

[H2OPWR]

I totally understand that but do not forget that all current drawn is all a part of using HHO on your vehicle no matter where the current is used. In my opinion it all should be calculated into effeciency. We buy the gas to create all current our PWM and HHO device uses.

[daddymikey1975]

That's right the pwm's I have been looking at all drop about 2/3~3/4 of a volt with the system on.

I agree 100% that there's a small drop in voltage just from the electronics in the device, what i was referring to is if you run your PWM at say a 30% duty cycle, you're still pulsing 12V (or alternator voltage minus the small drop of the device) but with your DC voltmeter it may show a measured voltage significantly less than the source voltage when it in fact isn't (again, not counting the small drop from the device)

I hope this helps
mike

[alpha-dog]

I agree 100% that there's a small drop in voltage just from the electronics in the device, what i was referring to is if you run your PWM at say a 30% duty cycle, you're still pulsing 12V (or alternator voltage minus the small drop of the device) but with your DC voltmeter it may show a measured voltage significantly less than the source voltage when it in fact isn't (again, not counting the small drop from the device)

I hope this helps
mike

No, you still have a DC circuit and the pwm only switches out the ground. If you read from a positive terminal to the next ( say from + to the first N ) you'll read the full dc voltage - not average. I can't remember what I read from the generator to ground but it seems like I didn't see anything different. Now with my o'scope I saw the pulse train. Thats how I was setting the pwm's.
If you could get the pwm to work on the positive input side of the generator you could get pulses and that would give you an average voltage based upon the duty cycle.

[daddymikey1975]

No, you still have a DC circuit and the pwm only switches out the ground. If you read from a positive terminal to the next ( say from + to the first N ) you'll read the full dc voltage - not average. I can't remember what I read from the generator to ground but it seems like I didn't see anything different. Now with my o'scope I saw the pulse train. Thats how I was setting the pwm's.
If you could get the pwm to work on the positive input side of the generator you could get pulses and that would give you an average voltage based upon the duty cycle.

What I guess I meant to say (to clarify in case i'm still wrong lol) was that by using a DC voltmeter, and measuring the output of the PWM from it's own output (-) to the + of the battery (or your Gen as it were) when the duty cycle is adjusted down from 100% the DC voltage that's displayed is lower than the ACTUAL voltage that's pulsed. This is because the meter expects to see a constant voltage or at least can't adjust to sample and display as quickly as the PWM is pulsing.

or am I still in need of correction?? lol
mike

[H2OPWR]

Mike, You are absolutely correct. I made the same mistake in some of my earlier tests. I thought the MMW was way up with lower duty cycles and my voltmeter was way off when checking at the cell after the PWM. I now only check voltage at the source power supply.

Larry

[alpha-dog]

What I guess I meant to say (to clarify in case i'm still wrong lol) was that by using a DC voltmeter, and measuring the output of the PWM from it's own output (-) to the + of the battery (or your Gen as it were) when the duty cycle is adjusted down from 100% the DC voltage that's displayed is lower than the ACTUAL voltage that's pulsed. This is because the meter expects to see a constant voltage or at least can't adjust to sample and display as quickly as the PWM is pulsing.

or am I still in need of correction?? lol
mike

I see what you are talking about and your right. Just like you read average current on your ammeter.