Electrolyte that doesn't freeze

[Dave Nowlin]

I wonder if anyone has ever tried using automotive anti-freeze as the electrolyte in their dry cell? I wonder if it would conduct electricity well? It would certainly be the all around, year round electrolyte we all need for our HHO generators in our vehicles if it would work. You could easily verify electrolyte strength with a simple tester like is used to test the anti-freeze in your radiator. One you determine the amount of anti-freeze to use in your distilled water to draw the desired amont of amps and take a reading, you have established a baseline. I suspect that unless something about the electrolysis breaks down the anti-freeze you won't have any loses and will simply need to top up with distilled water. The other thing about anti-freeze if it would work is it has additives to protect metal surfaces from corrosion. In my diesel this would definitely be less hazardous to the intercooler should there be some carryover in the HHO.

Dave Nowlin

[daddymikey1975]

the corrosion inhibitors are counter productive with electrolysis.. we're corroding our plates (albeit very slowly) they also have inhibitors in them to prevent electrolysis (i believe)

anti-freeze wouldn't be a very good solution from what I've read.

just my opinion
mike

[coffeeachiever]

That's very forward thinking, but I also have read from others that antifreeze added to electrolyte takes gas production down to almost nothing.
Keep thinking.

[Dave Nowlin]

There are new kinds of anti-freeze which aren't glycol based. In fact there is anti-freeze which is designed to keep the plumbing in an RV from freezing. It is much cheaper than automotive anti-freeze and can be rinsed out of plastic piping so completely that it is safe to drink the water which flows through them after a thorough rinsing. It is also supposed to be more friendly to the environment.

I definitely intend to try it in my bubbler.

Dave Nowlin

[daddymikey1975]

There are new kinds of anti-freeze which aren't glycol based. In fact there is anti-freeze which is designed to keep the plumbing in an RV from freezing. It is much cheaper than automotive anti-freeze and can be rinsed out of plastic piping so completely that it is safe to drink the water which flows through them after a thorough rinsing. It is also supposed to be more friendly to the environment.

I definitely intend to try it in my bubbler.

Dave Nowlin

Dave, you have piqued my curiosity... I'm curious which anti-freeze products you're talking about. Maybe we can see what chemicals are in them and those that are more knowledgable about chemical reactions can evaluate their interaction with our NaOH or KOH and how it'll affect electrolysis...

it's definitely worth checking into.

mike

[H2OPWR]

I wonder if anyone has ever tried using automotive anti-freeze as the electrolyte in their dry cell? I wonder if it would conduct electricity well? It would certainly be the all around, year round electrolyte we all need for our HHO generators in our vehicles if it would work. You could easily verify electrolyte strength with a simple tester like is used to test the anti-freeze in your radiator. One you determine the amount of anti-freeze to use in your distilled water to draw the desired amont of amps and take a reading, you have established a baseline. I suspect that unless something about the electrolysis breaks down the anti-freeze you won't have any loses and will simply need to top up with distilled water. The other thing about anti-freeze if it would work is it has additives to protect metal surfaces from corrosion. In my diesel this would definitely be less hazardous to the intercooler should there be some carryover in the HHO.

Dave Nowlin

Dave, If anyone on this forum has had to deal with freeezing problems I have. Right now outside it is cold enough outside that a cup of coffee thrown in the air completely dissipates and none hits the ground. I ran an HHO system on my 1998 Jeep all winter last winter. I found that if you use a strong KOH mixture as well as at least 10% Isopropyl Alcohol you will not have any freezing problems. If you stay above 10 or 15 degrees just the KOH is enough as the stronger the Alcohol mix is the lower your HHO production is. As for the bubbler just run GOOD windshield washer fluid in it. It never freezes and is cheap. All it contains is Alcohol, distilled water and pretty blue coloring. We make it at the Dealership I work for to use in our service departments. We just take distilled water (to prevent water spots on the windshield) add Isopropyl alcohol and coloring. Amazing that if we do not add the blue coloring the public thinks it will not work.

[Dave Nowlin]

My problem is I want to limit amp draw without a PWM if possible and if I use a strong solution of KOH in my Seigrene 21 plate Diamond Cell, I'm afraid I will draw more than 50 amps. My stock alternator is supposed to put out 125 amps and therefore I don't really need to draw more than 50 amps. Seigrene recommends against the use of alcohol in the electrolyte so I'm scratching my head.

Dave Nowlin

[alpha-dog]

My problem is I want to limit amp draw without a PWM if possible and if I use a strong solution of KOH in my Seigrene 21 plate Diamond Cell, I'm afraid I will draw more than 50 amps. My stock alternator is supposed to put out 125 amps and therefore I don't really need to draw more than 50 amps. Seigrene recommends against the use of alcohol in the electrolyte so I'm scratching my head.

Dave Nowlin

Thats basically the same problem I'm having. I have a sid cell 21 plate 8x8 4 cell blocks configuration. It draw 45 amps in dc operation and produces about 3.5~4Lpm. Unless you get a large alternator we need to find how to get the same HHO output with less amps. I'm working on it. Pwm's drop the current output a little and allow the stored charge on the generator to produce a little extra HHO. Pwm's will drop about 2/3 to 3/4 of a volt at 100% ( constantly on ) mode. So just having it in there will help with the amps drawn ( less voltage to drop across the cells ). It might be enough for you. Power = current X voltage ( P=ie ). You should allow 10 to 15 amps for every 1Lpm produced in DC mode and thats across each cell block ( 10 to 15 amps each ). I want 6Lpm output but the current usage will be to high so why add two more cell blocks. Currently I'm experimenting with an A-stable multivibrator configuration with a long ways to go. There's just not a good answer yet.

[Painless]

It draw 45 amps in dc operation and produces about 3.5~4Lpm. Unless you get a large alternator we need to find how to get the same HHO output with less amps.

I'm working on this right now with my experiments, which will be running full tilt after Friday when my 11 day vacation starts. I have some ideas with very positive results so far. I'll certainly share once I have proof in figures.

[coffeeachiever]

There is a guy on YouTube named dahduke that tested things to keep electrolyte from freezing. I ran accross his stuff while trying to view another one of H2OPWR's videos that my iPhone doesn't support. Anyway, RV antifreeze is one of the things he tested. It froze. His comment was "shame on you" to the makers of it.

[bigjim56]

I use a 50/50 solution of deionized water and windshield washer fluid, have checked it when parked outside overnight in a strong cold wind at 8 degrees and it showed no sign of freezing at all.

bigjim56

[coffeeachiever]

I use a 50/50 solution of deionized water and windshield washer fluid, have checked it when parked outside overnight in a strong cold wind at 8 degrees and it showed no sign of freezing at all.

bigjim56

What are you using for electrolyte? How does your cell produce with the windshield washer fluid as opposed to without?

[Dave Nowlin]

I'm puzzled about the RV anti-freeze freezing up. I use it full strength in the plumbing lines of my Fifth Wheel RV and the plumbing doesn't get damaged. I have to wonder if the guy in the test diluted it. The thing I don't think people have understood in my question about a freeze proof electrolyte is that I wanted to use either pure anti-freeze of some sort or a dilute mixture of anti-freeze and distilled water. I had hoped to find a solution which wouldn't require the addition of KOH or any other additive. Actually anti-freeze lowers the freezing point and raises the boiling point. I had hoped the anti-freeze would also reduce fluid loss due to evaporation.

Dave Nowlin

[bigjim56]

coffeeachiever,

I'm using 10M sodium hydroxide for the electrolite. I've yet to see any increase in mpg's. I'm getting fustrated w/the water4gas, want to look to plates. Trying to get something out of this system first and then start work on the plates in a jar idea (smacks) The sodium hydroxide is already in fluid form, I'm just using a droplet and adding a drop at a time. The car is running GREAT, but the mpg's are still normal, its only been a tank or two. Had vacuum leak problems (those pesky tubing/check valves areas). Flooded them w/plumbers goop and their gone.

Thanks,

bigjim56

[coffeeachiever]

Dave,
Found the vid. Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRGmVmpBaMU

[Dave Nowlin]

Thank you. I watched that twice and if I understood him correctly he said 5f. He said the alcohol didn't freeze and he also said the peak anti-freeze didn't freeze. He didn't really say if they produced HHO. So back to the drawing board.

Dave Nowlin

[jriggs_18]

I use full strength NaOH @ 20% by weight. I limit amp draw by surface area, bigger gaskets=less surface area. This will not affect MMW as long as you dont have more than .5A for each sq inch of cathode surface area....some people say .25A, but boyce reccomends the .5A limit

[AutoFuelSaving]

What are you using for electrolyte? How does your cell produce with the windshield washer fluid as opposed to without?

In my case, I tried KOH and windshield washer fluid. It worked in anti-freezing but could not compare the performance of KOH/water. The cell current kept dropping slowly from 10A to somewhere at 3A. This means that somehow either methanol (or methyl hydrate, the main component of windshield washer fluid) or some other component in it RETARD the electrochemical reaction. OR somehow KOH is nuetralized by some components in the windshield washer fluid.

So we stop using it. What we use now? Rubbing alcohol - or isopropyl alcohol that you can buy from any drug store. It is cheap too. Here in Calgary I can get it under $3 Canadian for a 1L bottle. So far so good. The cell current did not drop down after running for one day. In fact, the cell current increased, just like pure KOH solution, as the cell temperature increased.

[BoyntonStu]

There is a guy on YouTube named dahduke that tested things to keep electrolyte from freezing. I ran accross his stuff while trying to view another one of H2OPWR's videos that my iPhone doesn't support. Anyway, RV antifreeze is one of the things he tested. It froze. His comment was "shame on you" to the makers of it.

What are you guys worrying about?

http://koh.olinchloralkali.com/Techn...seDiagram.aspx

With a 28% mixture the freezing point is -65* C!

Your electrolyte will never freeze in your car unless you live in Antarctica.

Bubblers, that is another story.

BoyntonStu

[H2OPWR]

What are you guys worrying about?

http://koh.olinchloralkali.com/Techn...seDiagram.aspx

With a 28% mixture the freezing point is -65* C!

Your electrolyte will never freeze in your car unless you live in Antarctica.

Bubblers, that is another story.

BoyntonStu

Stu is absolutely right. I live in Alaska. Last winter I ran scared and mixed Isopropyl alcohol with the e-lite. It does hamper performance and this winter I have proven that it is NOT needed. I have had a glass gallon jar of strong KOH and distilled water sitting outside for months. It has been exposed to temps as low as 20 degrees below zero F. NOT ONE ICE CRYSTAL HAS EVER FORMED. Just protect the bubbler with Alcohol and distilled water and use a PWM to control amps. Your cell will be fine.

Larry

Larry

[bigjim56]

Larry,

So its now proven that the 28% of KOH to DI is good enough for subzero temps. Thats great1 I was checking your previous thread (hard copy) on the PWM MX066 from Bakatronics and am almost ready to do the purchase. I want to run the 28% to maximize efficiency, not just for the freeze protection. One other thing, I have a question concerning the 28% figure...
one gallon of water weighs 8.63 pounds, 8.63 X 0.28 = 2.42 pounds, thats slighly under the >3.0 pounds you mentioned earlier for a 28% solution. I just want to get this right before I make up the solution.

I like the idea that it starts the cell production of HHO immediately. I know dry cells always produce HHO when powered, but with the 28%, I assume it would be stronger and quicker. My drive to work time is as low as 15 minutes, if I hit the lights right. I noticed the base price was like $27, with a list of add ons. I assume a fan would be needed for 20A operation? Probably best to have, they use low power and cool the PWM quickly from what I hear. How about the p-channel mosfits?!? It mentions p-channels are installed and they are said to help w/efficiency (how, I forgot), are the p-channels installed the correct ones?

Thanks,

bigjim56

[H2OPWR]

Larry,

So its now proven that the 28% of KOH to DI is good enough for subzero temps. Thats great1 I was checking your previous thread (hard copy) on the PWM MX066 from Bakatronics and am almost ready to do the purchase. I want to run the 28% to maximize efficiency, not just for the freeze protection. One other thing, I have a question concerning the 28% figure...
one gallon of water weighs 8.63 pounds, 8.63 X 0.28 = 2.42 pounds, thats slighly under the >3.0 pounds you mentioned earlier for a 28% solution. I just want to get this right before I make up the solution.

I like the idea that it starts the cell production of HHO immediately. I know dry cells always produce HHO when powered, but with the 28%, I assume it would be stronger and quicker. My drive to work time is as low as 15 minutes, if I hit the lights right. I noticed the base price was like $27, with a list of add ons. I assume a fan would be needed for 20A operation? Probably best to have, they use low power and cool the PWM quickly from what I hear. How about the p-channel mosfits?!? It mentions p-channels are installed and they are said to help w/efficiency (how, I forgot), are the p-channels installed the correct ones?

Thanks,

bigjim56

Bigjim, The MX066 uses n channel fets. At 20 amps you should not need a cooling fan. It is rated for 30 amp continuous draw and I have never had one heat up even at the high 20's. I am now running the MX068's because they can draw 50 amps. I am using way more amps than your Acura can spare. To figure your 28% KOH just do this.

One gallon of wayer weighs 8 pounds.

8 devided by 72 = 0.111

0.111 X 100 = 11.1 pounds.

That is what your total solution should weigh. Subtract the 8 pounds of water and you have 3.1 pounds of KOH. You can duplicate this with any weight of water.

Larry
Larry

[bigjim56]

Actually we both had it wrong Larry, one gallon of water weighs 8.34 lbs. (I just googled it) Now if you figure it weight to weight 100% = 8.34 X 0.28 = 2.34 lbs. Thats weight to weight, the KOH is flake and dried versus the water is a constant volume and constant weight. I took Junior College chemistry and there are quite a few other ways of measuring units...besides weight to weight, there's volume to volume and then there is weight/volume...my previous calculation could be considered weight to volume, you get my meaning, this gets confusing! My assumption is the 2.34 lbs KOH/gallon of water may be too strong even. If you take the 2.34 lbs and add it to the gallon of water, you now have over one gallon of water...OMG, where does this stop. :eek:

I'm not trying to split hairs Larry, I just want the 28% w/o using excessive KOH, KOH is'nt cheap or easy to get. I'm on dayshift next week, so I'll give my Chemistry professors a call and ask them directly and then get back to you on this thread on what they say. Or a mentor could jump in and give us their input. I'll still give my professors a call, either way.

I've seen the videos on your monster cell, its very impressive, way bigger than anything I plan to build. BTW, I will begin the plate preperation for my own trucks cell (19 plates w/a +NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN-config.) probably about a week from now. I can't way to see how the truck responds to HHO!
It's a '93 Ford F-150 w/a FI 350 V8 (great condition, low mileage). A lot of problems w/the car cell setup will be eliminated or made easier w/the truck setup. For one, I understand the FI system much better, along w/the oxygen sensors, and there is a TON of space for anything that is needed...3 bubblers easy if needed! I'm not really interested in the mpg gains w/the truck, just the opposite, the power will come in very handy for towing (Travel trailer). Any mpg gains will be strictly a bonus. The better performance and increased longevity are well worth the investment.

Thanks for the input on the fan for the M066, it will save me a few $. I've got a temperature gun that I'll monitor for up to midsummer.

Sorry so winded.

bigjim56

[H2OPWR]

Actually we both had it wrong Larry, one gallon of water weighs 8.34 lbs. (I just googled it) Now if you figure it weight to weight 100% = 8.34 X 0.28 = 2.34 lbs. Thats weight to weight, the KOH is flake and dried versus the water is a constant volume and constant weight. I took Junior College chemistry and there are quite a few other ways of measuring units...besides weight to weight, there's volume to volume and then there is weight/volume...my previous calculation could be considered weight to volume, you get my meaning, this gets confusing! My assumption is the 2.34 lbs KOH/gallon of water may be too strong even. If you take the 2.34 lbs and add it to the gallon of water, you now have over one gallon of water...OMG, where does this stop. :eek:

I'm not trying to split hairs Larry, I just want the 28% w/o using excessive KOH, KOH is'nt cheap or easy to get. I'm on dayshift next week, so I'll give my Chemistry professors a call and ask them directly and then get back to you on this thread on what they say. Or a mentor could jump in and give us their input. I'll still give my professors a call, either way.

I've seen the videos on your monster cell, its very impressive, way bigger than anything I plan to build. BTW, I will begin the plate preperation for my own trucks cell (19 plates w/a +NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN-config.) probably about a week from now. I can't way to see how the truck responds to HHO!
It's a '93 Ford F-150 w/a FI 350 V8 (great condition, low mileage). A lot of problems w/the car cell setup will be eliminated or made easier w/the truck setup. For one, I understand the FI system much better, along w/the oxygen sensors, and there is a TON of space for anything that is needed...3 bubblers easy if needed! I'm not really interested in the mpg gains w/the truck, just the opposite, the power will come in very handy for towing (Travel trailer). Any mpg gains will be strictly a bonus. The better performance and increased longevity are well worth the investment.

Thanks for the input on the fan for the M066, it will save me a few $. I've got a temperature gun that I'll monitor for up to midsummer.

Sorry so winded.

bigjim56

Bigjim, Do not forget that if you want 28% by weight you have to figure in the final solution's weight. You can not weigh the water and add 28% for the KOH weight. It will be less based on the weight of the entire mass. 8 pounds is just the rule of thumb. That is where the saying (A pint is a pound the world around) came from. Water will weigh different depending on the mineral content.

Larry

Larry

[bigsmoke1956]

So what if you using sodium hydroxide, does the ratio stay at 28% or it there a different ratio that we should use