"N" Plates?

[BoyntonStu]

"N" plate = Non-neutral plate.

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

"N" plate = Net Neutral plate.

Incorrect!


Unconnected plates in an electrolyte are NOT neutral!

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

We should label them as 'B' for 'bi-polar plates'.

[coffeeachiever]

Incorrect!


Unconnected plates in an electrolyte are NOT neutral!

BoyntonStu

Stu,
I think I see what you're saying. In a light switch there is a hot, a neutral and and ground where the neutral carries the return current.

But this setup is different. If the unconnected plates are open to the charge of the corresponding charged plate, doesn't that by definition make them neutral?

[Carolinablue]

I would say they are neutral in the since there is no direct connection to them as is the + and - plates. We all know there is current flowing through them, but in this aspect of things I'd say neutral is a fair label for the unconnected plates.:D

[cully]

n = Not connected

neutral refers to AC the point of a sign wave were its not positive going nor is it negative going

the cell plates N are not neutrals because they have a potential (voltage) across them and other cells

[daddymikey1975]

n = Not connected

neutral refers to AC the point of a sign wave were its not positive going nor is it negative going

the cell plates N are not neutrals because they have a potential (voltage) across them and other cells

I like this definition. :)

N = Not CONNECTED to + or -

[coffeeachiever]

I like this definition. :)

N = Not CONNECTED to + or -

So what do we call them? I know Stu likes U plate, but such a thing already exists. The term "neutral" seems to be like nails on a chalkboard to him because he keeps bringing it up.
If someone comes up with a better, rolls off the tongue word for it, I for one will change my wording to be more correct and accommodating to Stu.

[Q-Hack!]

The more I think about this, the more I agree that we need a change in convention. Do we really need to refer to the unconnected plates as anything at all other than just plates? If you look at a circuit design which has 3 capacitors in series, you have created essentially the same sort of circuit that we have with HHO generators.

{+}-----|(----|(----|(-----{-}

in this case only the outer two plates of the capacitors are connected directly to the voltage source. Yet we still consider the middle capacitor as its own entity with powered plates.


I am all for a change in convention as long as it represents what we are trying to show effectively.

+NNN-

could be represented just as easily as

+|||-

The + and - symbols still represent plates, they are just the plates that actually have an electrode attached.


If you wanted to express two HHO generators in series in which the electrolyte is separated by container/wall.

(+|||-)(+|||-)

or parallel

(+|||-)
(+|||-)


This idea would only express the electrical side of the discussion. If you wanted to show the physical side. You could then use various letters in the representation.

For plumabobs design

+UUU-

or the Smacks design

+HHH-

in both of these designs there are physically 8 plates but electrically there are only 5.


Comments?

[coffeeachiever]

+ and - on the same plate ='s a NET neutral (in accounting terms)

Jezz Stu, take a chill pill!! Who gives a crap what you call them "N", "U", "A", "B", "C",..... When you are talking about + _ _ _ - you can fill the blanks with any latter, number, or character you would like and most people can easily figure out what you are saying.

ACTUALY FROM NOW ON THE NON CONNECTED PLATES LOCATED BETWEEN THE + AND - SHALL BE REFERED TO AS D Plates (as in Divider Plates!!!)

Cool. It's all semantics really, right? I just need to know how it effects the operation of my cell. What we call it has zero bearing on that. I'll cal it the "everyone's gay plate" if it makes HHO.

[DaneDHorstead]

Stu,
I think I see what you're saying. In a light switch there is a hot, a neutral and and ground where the neutral carries the return current.

But this setup is different. If the unconnected plates are open to the charge of the corresponding charged plate, doesn't that by definition make them neutral?
In a light switch, the neutral and ground are the same thing!

If you open your house pannel, you will see that all the neutral wires collect to a bus bar, as also do the ground wires connect to a similar bus bar. The two bus bars are connected!

The object of having the ground wire in addition to the neutral, is so that when a man works on the electrical switch, outlet, or what have you...........

If you disconnect the neutral wire, and didn't have a separate ground wire, there is the possibility, that you could become the ground, sustaining a possibly fatal shock!

[coffeeachiever]

I stand corrected. In that case, I have absolutely no clue where Stu is coming from.
I had missed QHacks post because we posted at the same time. I will make a final post to this thread by saying I don't care what we call them as long as there is sound reasoning behind it. It is impossible to make a decision on anything that will please everyone. If I'm going to argue about anything, it's likely not going to be what something is named.

[DaneDHorstead]

Cool. It's all semantics really, right? I just need to know how it effects the operation of my cell. What we call it has zero bearing on that. I'll cal it the "everyone's gay plate" if it makes HHO.
In truth, it really does matter!

The purpose of the forum, is to clarify the unknown, or at least the misunderstood!

The assigning of so may different names to the same thing, only creates confusion!

Ever since just about forever, the plates were called N plates!

With very few excptions, most peole here, fully understand, that these plates do have a charge, although they are Not connected.

With each person writing in to say it should be called "this", or "that", is reminiscent of the Tower of Babble. Everyone calling the same thing, by a different name (or word), is the very basis of confusion!


If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I think pretty much the same holds true, with the discussion of whether the current is conducted, or inducted...

We know the current flows, even thought the plates are Not connected, so if the electrolyte conducts current, or inducts current, is pretty much insignificant, in the long run. Of course, we want to know, but does it change anything?

We know it flows, and that is what counts.

[mytoyotasucks]

Is there anyway to do a poll of what peeps want to use on this forum?

I still like "n" cause it is used in many many places on the net.

just my 3000 cents worth. :)

[oicu812]

I vote we call them stu plates.

[alpha-dog]

they're capacitive plates. I like the line best ||||||||

[coffeeachiever]

I SAID D!!! And what I say GOES!!!

The reason I call it a "D" plate is I am Damn tired of the stupid Discussion over something that makes no Difference as far as HHO production is concerned!!

Now Don't make me repeat myself!!

:D

What he said. Love it. Although Stu plates is a pretty good one too.

I swear this is my last post on this.

[BoyntonStu]

I vote we call them stu plates.

To all Neutral Plate users:

Build a 3 plate cell in an otherwise wmpty and dry glass aquarium.

A Positive, a "Neutral", and a Negative.

Place 200 Volts between the Positive and the Negative.

Would you hold the "Neutral" in one hand and either the Positive or the Negative in your other hand?

I would not hesitate to do it.

Add electrolyte until you get 10 Amps flowing.

Would you repeat the above?

If not, why would you be afraid of holding a truly Neutral plate?

Would you touch the glass side of the aquarium?

Glass is a neutral non-conducting insulator and it is therefore safe.


No Neutral plates exist in a conducting electrolyte.

BoyntonStu

[daddymikey1975]

In that case, I have absolutely no clue where Stu is coming from.

Me either... Stu is a smart guy, but has anyone ever wondered why we give him the pleasure of all this attention?? seriously.. I think sometimes he starts posts like this one, and makes insulting comments like he did in another post (towards me) just for attention.

he has posted no justifiable reason (from his perspective) for this thread and yet it has received a ton of (in my opinion) not really relevant discussion.

I agree that the function of the neutral plates in our gens isn't exactly neutral, but in actuality they could be... they could not be...WHO CARES... as long as there's a standard by which we can all identify the 'not electrically connected plates'... right??

(and for the record, i'm seriously not trying to slam stu or anything, in fact I believe he's a smart guy with lots to contribute here)

(here comes the snowballs... )

mike

[DaneDHorstead]

To all Neutral Plate users:

Build a 3 plate cell in an otherwise wmpty and dry glass aquarium.

A Positive, a "Neutral", and a Negative.

Place 200 Volts between the Positive and the Negative.

Would you hold the "Neutral" in one hand and either the Positive or the Negative in your other hand?

I would not hesitate to do it.

Add electrolyte until you get 10 Amps flowing.

Would you repeat the above?

If not, why would you be afraid of holding a truly Neutral plate?

Would you touch the glass side of the aquarium?

Glass is a neutral non-conducting insulator and it is therefore safe.


No Neutral plates exist in a conducting electrolyte.

BoyntonStu
Stu;

This banter can go on forever, with no one gaining any ground.

No one here is arguing that the divider plate(s) "in the electrolyte" are in fact charged, when current is applied to the positive pole, and the negative pole is grounded.

And of course, if you apply current to the annode plate, in a cell with no electrolyte, you wouldn't be shocked, to touch the divider plate.

The only reason we refer to the divider plates, as N, is because they are not directly hardwired, but instead gather current from other means!

These plates were called N plates long before any of us, ever joined this forum.

Further discussion over something so trivial, is not of any bennefit.

If it were able to help, it would warrant further discussion.

But as there is no argument, that the plates do indeed have a positive charge, when in use, the varying names of the plates, only hinder the cause.

[Carolinablue]

To all Neutral Plate users:

Build a 3 plate cell in an otherwise wmpty and dry glass aquarium.

A Positive, a "Neutral", and a Negative.

Place 200 Volts between the Positive and the Negative.

Would you hold the "Neutral" in one hand and either the Positive or the Negative in your other hand?

I would not hesitate to do it.

Add electrolyte until you get 10 Amps flowing.

Would you repeat the above?

If not, why would you be afraid of holding a truly Neutral plate?

Would you touch the glass side of the aquarium?

Glass is a neutral non-conducting insulator and it is therefore safe.


No Neutral plates exist in a conducting electrolyte.

BoyntonStu

Stu I'd say you answered your own quarrel here. In building a gen. be it dry or wet there is no electrolyte during the building just the plates with the + and - leads and your neutral plates and the N plates are discussed only in design aspect. So +N- plates is a very well put description.

[BoyntonStu]

Stu I'd say you answered your own quarrel here. In building a gen. be it dry or wet there is no electrolyte during the building just the plates with the + and - leads and your neutral plates and the N plates are discussed only in design aspect. So +N- plates is a very well put description.

Terrific!

You will not have to hold your breath long before another person again asks, "What is a Neutral plate and what does it do?"


BoyntonStu

[oicu812]

hey stu... what's a neutral plate?

[H2OPWR]

Go ahead and change the name. Now we have to explain the purpose to both novice and experienced members what a "U", "B", "D", "N" plate is.

[Painless]

Go ahead and change the name. Now we have to explain the purpose to both novice and experienced members what a "U", "B", "D", "N" plate is.

Let's add "M" for "mildly producing HHO" then we can call them, collectively, "DUMB" plates.

[BoyntonStu]

Let's add "M" for "mildly producing HHO" then we can call them, collectively, "DUMB" plates.

Mildly?

The Unconnected plates produce exactly the same as the connected plates.

BoyntonStu

[daddymikey1975]

No one gives a ****!! Drop it already!!

i agree... Thank You.. (and yet we keep reading it :cool: )

[Painless]

Mildly?

The Unconnected plates produce exactly the same as the connected plates.

BoyntonStu

Compare this in a wet cell to a dry cell:

In a dry cell, they produce just as much.

In a wet cell, production on the N's (when the cell is unwrapped) is visually less.

I do believe you're taking this discussion too seriously, my friend. :)

[BoyntonStu]

Compare this in a wet cell to a dry cell:

In a dry cell, they produce just as much.

In a wet cell, production on the N's (when the cell is unwrapped) is visually less.

I do believe you're taking this discussion too seriously, my friend. :)


Science is neither serious or humorous.

Science is measuring what is.


Science is independent of personality.

Have you measured the "N" plate production of a unwrapped wet cell with the Plumabob configuration?

A comparison would be nice.

Your friend,

BoyntonStu

P.S. The seal is working!

[Painless]

Have you measured the "N" plate production of a unwrapped wet cell with the Plumabob configuration?


My first wet cell experiments used the plumabob style, I also used 10 gauge wire to connect each neutral pair, rather than relying on the electrolyte to conduct over the inch of space. N production in this setup was almost on par with the charged plates.

Check out my early youtube videos, you can see this setup in operation.