Winterizing

[cozumel2]

OK, so I switched form salt to KOH. It is now 1 above and I have a block of ice. Is there a way to get a good electrolyte AND prevent freezing? I suspect that I may have to hook up some sort of self contained heater for the winter. I am open to any ideas short of heating my garage!

[Painless]

OK, so I switched form salt to KOH. It is now 1 above and I have a block of ice. Is there a way to get a good electrolyte AND prevent freezing? I suspect that I may have to hook up some sort of self contained heater for the winter. I am open to any ideas short of heating my garage!

The best method is to use a maximum strength solution of electrolyte (28% KOH) and utilise a PWM to control amps. You will also increase your MMW this way.

[VanHalen]

For sure use the maximum strength electrolyte. In simple terms the less water, more electrolyte, the lower the freezing temp(assuming its KOH or NaOH). I'm NOT saying to use a lower amount of water than needed to run the cell, but if the cell is 2" by 4" and your using a tank(assuming your using a non dry cell) that is 6" by 1', then that's asking for easier freezing. Use a container that fits the cell, and the maximum electrolyte level possible. You could also get some sort of of heater, to run as a parasitic draw. Also, if you could make it easy enough using some kind of quick connect, you could just take your cell out for the night:cool:

[Q-Hack!]

You might be able to incorporate a block heater. The sell fairly cheaply on ebay. I used to use one to heat vegetable oil up for a diesel truck. They heat up to about 125 degrees Fahrenheit. However you would have to be cautious of the copper tubing they are usually made out of. Wonder if you could silver solder the outer copper tube such to protect it from the electrolyte.

[cozumel2]

Salt does the trick but I get a black sludge and chlorine gas. Given that, I cannot imagine what byproducts I get from KOH, NaOH or alcohol, especially in the high doses I am seeing here as suggestions. Any thoughts on using hydrogen peroxide? If I boost the KOH, I see a very high amp draw problem. Also, can someone elaborate on PMW & MMW please?

[Q-Hack!]

Salt does the trick but I get a black sludge and chlorine gas. Given that, I cannot imagine what byproducts I get from KOH, NaOH or alcohol, especially in the high doses I am seeing here as suggestions. Any thoughts on using hydrogen peroxide? If I boost the KOH, I see a very high amp draw problem. Also, can someone elaborate on PMW & MMW please?

Hydrogen Peroxide breaks down in heat or light. It is 97% water anyway. I think it would freeze just about as fast.

I have seen ice cream scoops that have anti-freeze in the handle... Wonder if you could incorporate something like that. Find a small water-tight stainless steel container that would fit inside. Fill it with anti-freeze and drop it in.

[wayneB]

This is my first here,So be gentle with me. I'm into this HHO a bit,And I live in southern Mo. I bench test the cells I work with.[Building different ones]. I tested a small one,it put out about half liter a min. I added 3-4 oz alcohol to the cell, And it SHUT down making any gas. So you can use it, but your cell won't work.{ at least with my tests}. I know some guys use it, and say that it works for them. It may keep it from freezing, But if it don't make any or much gas, Or You could just turn the cell OFF for the winter,Or put a heater by it. A drop cord with 60 watt bulb next to the cell should keep it from freezing.Someone told me they make 3ft heat tapes.May be worth a try. I tested a guys 2 cell rig on a 86 Fodr P U with a 460 eng.He put 6oz of alcohol in each. When I tested his, They were not putting out anything. Told him to use a drop cord. Hope this helps someone.

[coffeeachiever]

After a couple of days in the twenties, the half gallon of vinegar I leave in the back of my truck did not freeze. This morning I woke up to fourteen degrees and the vinegar was a block of ice. I assume the vinegar in my bubbler was frozen too. The unit is disconnected right now for repairs and modifications, so I wasn't too concerned about it. The main thing is that my electrolyte was NOT frozen. I use about a 75/25 mix of water and NaOH. So far it has passed the freeze test. The only issue now is what to put in the bubbler. I want it to be acidic (i.e. Vinegar) to neutralize any NaOH fumes that may be present, but I don't want to make any bad juju by mixing the wrong stuff.

[Painless]

After a couple of days in the twenties, the half gallon of vinegar I leave in the back of my truck did not freeze. This morning I woke up to fourteen degrees and the vinegar was a block of ice. I assume the vinegar in my bubbler was frozen too. The unit is disconnected right now for repairs and modifications, so I wasn't too concerned about it. The main thing is that my electrolyte was NOT frozen. I use about a 75/25 mix of water and NaOH. So far it has passed the freeze test. The only issue now is what to put in the bubbler. I want it to be acidic (i.e. Vinegar) to neutralize any NaOH fumes that may be present, but I don't want to make any bad juju by mixing the wrong stuff.

I was thinking about using neat windshield washer fluid in my bubbler. If you have a condenser coil like my design it shouldn't matter what's in the bubbler.

[coffeeachiever]

I was thinking about using neat windshield washer fluid in my bubbler. If you have a condenser coil like my design it shouldn't matter what's in the bubbler.

The condenser coil is a good idea. Before I try that though, i'm going to change my bubbler from PVC to a conductive metal and try to seperate the gasses in it with electromagnets. I really want to see if that works. If not, I will definitely be using your condenser idea.

[Dave Nowlin]

I have an observation. Maybe it's valid. Maybe not. There seems to be a belief that by using a slightly acidic solution in a secondary bubbler any caustic carryover in the HHO will be neutralized. Now for my thoughts. The HHO and the caustic are introduced into the bubbler as bubbles. They remain inside of the bubble until it reaches the surface of the liquid and pops releasing the gas which rises above the surface of the liquid and exists on demand from intake vacuum. The caustic incased within the bubble isn't neutralized as it is isolated from the acidic solution by the wall of the bubble. When the bubble bursts the gas is instantly airborne. All this taken into account, how much of the caustic is truly neutralized? I doubt that very much is. Some type of absorptive scrubber like that made by Seigrene is needed. It has been tested over a period of several months using Sodium Hydroxide as it leaves telltale crystals in the intake which indicate it's presence. After a several month trial run, none was found. With my 6.0 diesel I need to know with some assurance I don't get Potassim Hydroxide in my intercooler. It is made of aluminum.

Dave Nowlin

[H2OPWR]

I have an observation. Maybe it's valid. Maybe not. There seems to be a belief that by using a slightly acidic solution in a secondary bubbler any caustic carryover in the HHO will be neutralized. Now for my thoughts. The HHO and the caustic are introduced into the bubbler as bubbles. They remain inside of the bubble until it reaches the surface of the liquid and pops releasing the gas which rises above the surface of the liquid and exists on demand from intake vacuum. The caustic incased within the bubble isn't neutralized as it is isolated from the acidic solution by the wall of the bubble. When the bubble bursts the gas is instantly airborne. All this taken into account, how much of the caustic is truly neutralized? I doubt that very much is. Some type of absorptive scrubber like that made by Seigrene is needed. It has been tested over a period of several months using Sodium Hydroxide as it leaves telltale crystals in the intake which indicate it's presence. After a several month trial run, none was found. With my 6.0 diesel I need to know with some assurance I don't get Potassim Hydroxide in my intercooler. It is made of aluminum.

Dave Nowlin

I agree. Unless you break up the bubble the bubbler is of little or no use except as a flash arrestor. Your intercooler is a huge problem. As the gas is cooled in the intercooler the liquid will form and fall to the bottom causing an expensive problem. You need to break up the bubbles several times in the bubbler using mesh screen or something similar.

[coffeeachiever]

I agree. Unless you break up the bubble the bubbler is of little or no use except as a flash arrestor. Your intercooler is a huge problem. As the gas is cooled in the intercooler the liquid will form and fall to the bottom causing an expensive problem. You need to break up the bubbles several times in the bubbler using mesh screen or something similar.

I thought of that too. The best solution I've heard until Dave's post was to put the gas through an aerating aquarium stone. Not sure how effective that would be. Dave, I've never heard of the solution you're talking about, but I'll definitely be checking it out.

[Dave Nowlin]

a for real website. It came on line last Saturday. If you will call them they will be glad to tell you about the scrubber.

Dave Nowlin

[Painless]

To recover some old ground:

My cleansing bubbler design solves this problem, it employs a tightly packed coil going down through the liquid creating a condenser. The water vapour becomes water again and sits in the bottom of the vinegar where the caustic base is neutralised.

You can find the design on my thread.

[cozumel2]

One suggestion was to disconnect the unit & bring it in at night. I have to imagine that idea came from somebody that considers 28 above as frigid. Try 28 below and see if you care to stand out after a long day's work and mess with a bunch of cold wires and tubes in a 30 MPH wind at midnight. NOT gonna happen. As far as the heater pads etc, those may be fine at home but what about letting it sit in a parking lot at work for 10 hours or overnight at a motel if you are on the road? The solution to the problem has to be self contained, either thru an electrolyte that will not freeze or a 12V heater of some sort that will not run the battery down in 12 hours in cold weather. Still open to ideas. Thanks

[Randohr]

I fill my bubblers with -20 windshield washer fluid and have no problems. We've had many days and nights below (way below) freezing. I use about 4 tlbs of KOH per liter of water, or more. Not real scientific and not sure if I'm close to the 28% KOH target but so far my cells have never failed to produce. I do believe I had slush a few times, but I still produced hho. My amps stay rock solid at 14 amps no matter what the temperature (no adjustment needed) so it seems to bust up the slush nicely. I'm hoping for a mild winter so my set-up will work year around. So far so good.

[daddymikey1975]

To recover some old ground:

My cleansing bubbler design solves this problem, it employs a tightly packed coil going down through the liquid creating a condenser. The water vapour becomes water again and sits in the bottom of the vinegar where the caustic base is neutralised.

You can find the design on my thread.

this was one DEFINITE solution that worked. The only other that I've run across (that's tried and true as well) was Smith03Jetta.. he mentioned a filter that can be purchased at a paint shop that filters particles down to .01 microns ( i believe ) and he believed that with filtering this small, the KOH or NaOH couldn't pass through the filter. His testing of this idea was as detailed as painless' with his cleansing bubbler. See Smith's experiment thread for more info on this.

I hope this helps
mike
(both Painless' design and Smith's design would work IMO just as well if the sole purpose is to keep the caustic out of the motor)