Neutral plates

[stephane]

I used from now:
-NN+NN+NN-
I see that we are all using SS plate as neutral.
But what is the sense of it?
Did you ever try to use other material as Neutral?
Plexiglas, PVC plate?
Because in fact it's just to separate the + and - .

[mytoyotasucks]

also the neatruals do have power,

if u have 6 plates u divide the voltage between all the plates
= 12v = 2v each plate
= +nnnn- x 2v = 12v

and some plates will have more power and others will have less but in 0.1 or 0.2V a plate.

if u use plastic or plexi, they seperate the voltage not pass the volts through.

that should make it clear as mud.

[stephane]

Thanks for the replies.
Until now I was doing:
- space(3mm) N space N space + space (or twice +) N space N space -
The Neutral wasn't plug to anything - to negative, + to positive.
So neutral is not "using any volt, it's just a conductor such as water with KOH.
It's there not to have straight contact between +and-.
So if I use a piece of Plexiglas (with some holes of course) it should be the same result.
I tried before:
2 plexi bottles, one with anode the second one with cathode.
And 2 hoses up and down for the water flowing.
It was producing HHo and O, the start was slower but the amount after water flow was correct.

[BoyntonStu]

I used from now:
-NN+NN+NN-
I see that we are all using SS plate as neutral.
But what is the sense of it?
Did you ever try to use other material as Neutral?
Plexiglas, PVC plate?
Because in fact it's just to separate the + and - .

In the electrolyte, the Unconnected plates are NOT neutral!

BoyntonStu

[stephane]

Sir BoyntonStu, thanks for the reply.
If they are not neutral so what are they? +, -? How the electricity goes thought?

[pythoner]

The neutral plates in a unit conduct eletricity...so being not powered (marked as N) it has no power received from the power source it still gets voltage (power) through the electrolite or other impurities that you give it.


Typed on my Ipod

[BoyntonStu]

Sir BoyntonStu, thanks for the reply.
If they are not neutral so what are they? +, -? How the electricity goes thought?

Electricity flows though wires.

At every point along the wire as you go from + to - the voltage is slightly less + than it was at the previous point. Less positive is the same as being negative with respect to the previous point.

Electricity flows through an electrolyte. In fact, we see 50 Amps or more easily flowing through the liquid.

At every point along the electrolyte as you go from + to - the voltage is slightly less + than it was at the previous point. Less positive is the same as being negative with respect to the previous point.


I hope that this helps.


BoyntonStu

[stephane]

Ok, it's more clear, thank you.
One more question, if you don't mind:
How can you calculate the volt/amp if the N plates are slightly less "charged"?
Is it going in crescendo, I mean for example the first one is +2,5V (as an example), the second +2,3 the third +2,1 and so on?
Regarding this, N plates are also producing gas, isn't it?

thanks for yr answers.

[BoyntonStu]

Ok, it's more clear, thank you.
One more question, if you don't mind:
How can you calculate the volt/amp if the N plates are slightly less "charged"?
Is it going in crescendo, I mean for example the first one is +2,5V (as an example), the second +2,3 the third +2,1 and so on?
Regarding this, N plates are also producing gas, isn't it?

thanks for yr answers.


First, I suggest calling them U plates.

You have a 2 plate cell and 12 volts between them.

You add a third plate, a U plate in between them.

If you measure the U plate from the - it will measure +6 Volts.


If you measure the U plate from the + it will measure -6 Volts.


Add more U plates and the voltages will go down in proportion to the number of plates.

For example; using 7 plates you get 6 cells.

Immersed in the electrolyte, there will be 2 Volts between 2 adjacent cell plates.

I have been atempting to change the nomenclature to avoid this confusion without success.


Calling a plate N wastes too much time.


BoyntonStu

[stephane]

Now it's clear, I understand.
About U plate, you are right!
Thank you.
Steph.

[redneck323]

So does excess voltage create heat i am assuming so.I suspect this is a part of my heat problem. My plates are wired - + - + - + - and i have a tremendous heat issue i go from about 18 amps to over 30 in a few minutes and unless i am driving (mounted in front of the radiator) and have airflow i easily blow a fuse. should i change to - N N N N N + . Will this decrease production will i be better off installing a cooling circuit like a trans cooler and electric pump? Any advice appreciated even though im gonna do it and find out myself LOL!!
Thanks, Carl

[alpha-dog]

So does excess voltage create heat i am assuming so.I suspect this is a part of my heat problem. My plates are wired - + - + - + - and i have a tremendous heat issue i go from about 18 amps to over 30 in a few minutes and unless i am driving (mounted in front of the radiator) and have airflow i easily blow a fuse. should i change to - N N N N N + . Will this decrease production will i be better off installing a cooling circuit like a trans cooler and electric pump? Any advice appreciated even though im gonna do it and find out myself LOL!!
Thanks, Carl

You would be better off with the -NNNNN+. I can't tell you about production but my guess is it'll be close.
Russ

[coffeeachiever]

So does excess voltage create heat i am assuming so.I suspect this is a part of my heat problem. My plates are wired - + - + - + - and i have a tremendous heat issue
Thanks, Carl

You will always have uncontrolable thermal runaway with your unit wired like that. Stu explained it above. You want to divide the voltage through the plates till there is no excess to produce heat. You want to do everything possible to avoid making steam and keep the unit cool. You can figure around 2 volts per plate with a little breathing room. Anything more than 2.4 or so and you are making heat with no extra production to show for it. Like Stu said, neutrals aren't really neutral. They carry the charge of the corresponding charged plate and they do produce gas.

[DaneDHorstead]

Sir BoyntonStu, thanks for the reply.
If they are not neutral so what are they? +, -? How the electricity goes thought?
Stephane;

Reading on, I don't really think you got the point of the "N" plates (to include U plates, ( aka:Fred plates, Sally plates, or plates by any other name)

Changing the name of the plate, does not change it's function, but in the case where Stu says call it a U plate, I am afraid that only further confuses the issue........

Stu is a brilliant man, and I don't want to be critical. But, because there actually are plates out there, that are litterally folded plates (bent over (folded) in the middle, to form a U). this designation of the U plate, confuses the issue....

He states he has been largely unsuccesful, at getting people to call them U plates, and he is right, in that respect. Changing the name of the plate, does not change it's function!

Noe in regard to the Fred, and Sally plates, it should be apparent, that a name, is only a name! (A rose by any other name....)

Generally accepted N is the name given to a stainless plate, that is not physicly attached to the current, but that does conduct current through induction.

The N plates are Not connected, and rely on induction (current leaked in the form of magnetic waves), through insolation, or in this case, electrolyte.

Long about the 8th grade, you should have been shown a science experiment, where an insulated wire was wrapped many times around a nail, or similar metal bar, or shaft.

The wire being insulated, does not make physical contact with the nail, but when the wire is connected to both poles of a drycell battery, the nail become magnetic.

But, it is only magnetic, as long as the current flows through the insulated wire.

The nail, although not connected directly to the battery, is getting inducted current! This is the same way, very large electromagnets in a junk yard work, and they litterally can pick up a whole car.

In the HHO solution, current is indirectly passed (without physical connection), to the N plates. Thus using one N plate, between a 14 volt input, and the 0 volt negative, the N plate will hold a 7 volt charge, as the electrolyte allows for voltage leakage, similar to the insolation leaked/induced an indirect current flow, in the electro magnet experiment.

Now, adding more N plates, you get gaps between the plates, which determine how many times the input volts, are divided, to determine volt drop at each plate.

As an example, 14 volts input, with 7 gaps, produces a 2 volt drop between each plate........

14 - 12 - 10 - 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 - 0

A two volt drop between each plate is the generally accepted target, to maintain production, and to control heat.

Truthfully, HHO can be produced, with as little as a 1.4 volt drop (10 gap), but production suffers. On the other hand, volt drop higher than 2.4 to 2.5 volts, starts to produce excess heat.

Any plate design that does not use N plates, automatlcly drops any voltage in excess of the 2.4 volts needed to produce HHO, as excessive heat! (AKA: wasted energy).

Manipulating the number of N plates, and the gap distance between them, you can gain some control, over not only production, but also over wasted energy, in the form of excess heat.

Does that help?

[BoyntonStu]

Stephane;

Reading on, I don't really think you got the point of the "N" plates (to include U plates, ( aka:Fred plates, Sally plates, or plates by any other name)

Changing the name of the plate, does not change it's function, but in the case where Stu says call it a U plate, I am afraid that only further confuses the issue........

Stu is a brilliant man, and I don't want to be critical. But, because there actually are plates out there, that are litterally folded plates (bent over (folded) in the middle, to form a U). this designation of the U plate, confuses the issue....

He states he has been largely unsuccesful, at getting people to call them U plates, and he is right, in that respect. Changing the name of the plate, does not change it's function!

Noe in regard to the Fred, and Sally plates, it should be apparent, that a name, is only a name! (A rose by any other name....)

Generally accepted N is the name given to a stainless plate, that is not physicly attached to the current, but that does conduct current through induction.

The N plates are Not connected, and rely on induction (current leaked in the form of magnetic waves), through insolation, or in this case, electrolyte.

Long about the 8th grade, you should have been shown a science experiment, where an insulated wire was wrapped many times around a nail, or similar metal bar, or shaft.

The wire being insulated, does not make physical contact with the nail, but when the wire is connected to both poles of a drycell battery, the nail become magnetic.

But, it is only magnetic, as long as the current flows through the insulated wire.

The nail, although not connected directly to the battery, is getting inducted current! This is the same way, very large electromagnets in a junk yard work, and they litterally can pick up a whole car.

In the HHO solution, current is indirectly passed (without physical connection), to the N plates. Thus using one N plate, between a 14 volt input, and the 0 volt negative, the N plate will hold a 7 volt charge, as the electrolyte allows for voltage leakage, similar to the insolation leaked/induced an indirect current flow, in the electro magnet experiment.

Now, adding more N plates, you get gaps between the plates, which determine how many times the input volts, are divided, to determine volt drop at each plate.

As an example, 14 volts input, with 7 gaps, produces a 2 volt drop between each plate........

14 - 12 - 10 - 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 - 0

A two volt drop between each plate is the generally accepted target, to maintain production, and to control heat.

Truthfully, HHO can be produced, with as little as a 1.4 volt drop (10 gap), but production suffers. On the other hand, volt drop higher than 2.4 to 2.5 volts, starts to produce excess heat.

Any plate design that does not use N plates, automatlcly drops any voltage in excess of the 2.4 volts needed to produce HHO, as excessive heat! (AKA: wasted energy).

Manipulating the number of N plates, and the gap distance between them, you can gain some control, over not only production, but also over wasted energy, in the form of excess heat.

Does that help?

Sorry, Dane you are not correct about conductivity.


Some electrical conductivities:

Electrical Conductivity

Silver 63.01 × 10^6 20 Highest electrical conductivity of any known metal

Copper 59.6 × 10^6 20
Annealed Copper 58.0 × 10^6 20 Referred to as 100% IACS or International Annealed Copper Standard. The unit for expressing the conductivity of nonmagnetic materials by testing using the eddy-current method. Generally used for temper and alloy verification of Aluminium.

Electrical Conductivity and temperature *C.

Gold 45.2 × 10^6 20 Gold is commonly used in electrical contacts

Aluminium 37.8 × 10^6 20


Seawater 5 23 Refer to http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_7/2_7_9.html for more detail as there are many variations and significant variables for seawater.

5(S·m-1) would be for an average salinity of 35 g/kg at about 23(°C) Copyright on the linked material can be found here http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/copyright/


Drinking water 0.0005 to 0.05 This value range is typical of high quality drinking water and not an indicator of water quality
deionized water 5.5 × 10-6[1] changes to 1.2 × 10-4 in water with no gas present[1]

Notice that seawater has 10,000 times the conductivity of drinking water.

Add NaOH or KOH to distilled water and its CONDUCTIVITY jumps way up.


I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

[Bassman]

That's a very good explanation but I might add that even steel will work but the problem is that your catalyst will dissolve certain metals, depending on what catalyst that you use.

[BoyntonStu]

That's a very good explanation but I might add that even steel will work but the problem is that your catalyst will dissolve certain metals, depending on what catalyst that you use.

NaOH and KOH will not greatly affect 304, 316, 317 SS.

Why confuse the issue with 'certain' metals?

Aluminum and NaOH will make Hydrogen as the aluminum dissolves.


Don't use aluminum.

If folks use anything but NaOH or KOH, I believe that they are making an error of judgment.

FWIW


BoyntonStu

[Bassman]

NaOH and KOH will not greatly affect 304, 316, 317 SS.

Why confuse the issue with 'certain' metals?

Aluminum and NaOH will make Hydrogen as the aluminum dissolves.


Don't use aluminum.

If folks use anything but NaOH or KOH, I believe that they are making an error of judgment.

FWIW

BoyntonStu

That was the point that I was trying to make. By using stainless, it is effected less by NaOH but that doesn't mean other metals can't be used. They just won't last long.

[DaneDHorstead]

Sorry, Dane you are not correct about conductivity.


Some electrical conductivities:

Electrical Conductivity

Silver 63.01 × 10^6 20 Highest electrical conductivity of any known metal

Copper 59.6 × 10^6 20
Annealed Copper 58.0 × 10^6 20 Referred to as 100% IACS or International Annealed Copper Standard. The unit for expressing the conductivity of nonmagnetic materials by testing using the eddy-current method. Generally used for temper and alloy verification of Aluminium.

Electrical Conductivity and temperature *C.

Gold 45.2 × 10^6 20 Gold is commonly used in electrical contacts

Aluminium 37.8 × 10^6 20


Seawater 5 23 Refer to http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_7/2_7_9.html for more detail as there are many variations and significant variables for seawater.

5(S·m-1) would be for an average salinity of 35 g/kg at about 23(°C) Copyright on the linked material can be found here http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/copyright/


Drinking water 0.0005 to 0.05 This value range is typical of high quality drinking water and not an indicator of water quality
deionized water 5.5 × 10-6[1] changes to 1.2 × 10-4 in water with no gas present[1]

Notice that seawater has 10,000 times the conductivity of drinking water.

Add NaOH or KOH to distilled water and its CONDUCTIVITY jumps way up.


I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu
Stu;

In regards to the conductivity of various metals, you are speaking off topic. I hold no amimosity, but the conductivity, of copper, silver, gold, mercury, or far more, are not the issue.

The conductivity, or inductive temperment of the electrolyte, is the issue.

This is a forum, where open discussion of all respects, of the issue are tossed about, and reflected upon, for further discussion, and opinions.

No single person, is 100% right, or wrong, as we largely are seeking the unknown, or misunderstood.

With each of the above, the metals are used to form a physical pathway, for curent to flow (even in the case of a mercury switch).

Formerly, you write: Electricity flows though wires.At every point along the wire as you go from + to - the voltage is slightly less + than it was at the previous point. Less positive is the same as being negative with respect to the previous point.

Electricity flows through an electrolyte. In fact, we see 50 Amps or more easily flowing through the liquid.

At every point along the electrolyte as you go from + to - the voltage is slightly less + than it was at the previous point. Less positive is the same as being negative with respect to the previous point.


I hope that this helps.


BoyntonStu

___________________________

You also state in the above that electricity flows through electrolyte, which again, I will not argue. However, you write a pm to me, that the flow is conductive, and not inductive.

I do not believe that the electrical flow of current through electrolyte is in the truest sense conducted, as much as it is inducted.

In either respect, both of us acknowlege that the current is not flowing through a conventional metalic pathway, but instead, does flow through the electrolyte, of the liquid surrounding the plates

The pole plates (as well as with action/reaction of N plates), in regards to the HHO generator, is very often compared to a capacitor, as so also is interaction of currents between clouds, in the form of lightning!

The word capacity, means 100% full, to the point that it can not hold anymore, without discharging at least some, of its volume. Such as filling a barrel with water! There comes a point, where one more drop of water causes the barrel to overflow.

Now, back to the HHO generator......

It is generally acknowleged, that electrolyte, is added to water, to aid in the flow of current, because water by itself, is at least a poor conductor, if indeed it conducts at all!

There are two distinct schools of thought on that, as the true Myers generator, does not use electrolyte, yet the majority of opinion holds that water alone, is not a conductor.

There are two sides to that issue, such as glass also acts as a poor conductor, as well as an insolator, such as Alexander G. Bell proved, with early capacitor experiments

Any golfer, that has ever been struck by lightning (such as Lee Travino), would undoubtedly take your side of the issue, as the current is very real, and deadly!

But, it was not conducted, through the conventional metal path, of a wire, or even through any set pathway.

Lightning dances, changing the shape of its path, many times during the split second it parts the sky. Because the lightning changes its path, dancing through the sky, I do not see how it can be said that it is conducted, more that it is inducted?

Current flowing through a solution of electrolyte, that is at least 2/3 made of a generally acceptable poor electrical conductor (if it conducts at all), is being aided by the electrolyte, to pass the current.

Imagine a current flowing (or attempting to flow), through a tube, which is filled with 2/3water, and the remainder could be any known conductor. But, the contents need to be evenly spread, as the HHO electrolyte solution, is mixed to a saturation point.

If for example, even using the same ingredients 2/3 water, 1/3 KOH, and that solution was used to fill the elongated hollow of a 14 gage wire insolation, with a metal probe inserted at each end, to connect the ends to an appliance......

Would that electrical path, conduct current, to power a lamp, provided 110 volts was input, and a similar return path was provided?

If it does, then why are we using copper, to make wire?

If it can't do the job, then I would wonder if the flow wasn't inducted, rather than conducted?

If water alone, conducts current, then why is electrolyte needed? Many will argue that it does conduct current. Then current will travel through a water pipe (even if the jacket is made of vinyl), and copper is not needed to make wires!

Lets also consider, that three plates are set in a solution, yards, or even miles away from each other, and are powered in similar fashion, to an open bath HHO generator.

Will current flow, as it does, in the much smaller set up?

If the current is conducted, then distance, would not be as nearly influenced, as induction! Induction relies on proximity, and for that reason given a strong enough charge, it will even transverse our sky, once its capacity is reached.



Perhaps, my argument is with the use of the term, as compared to it’s definition………..

Merriam Webster says:

Conductor

One entry found.

Main Entry: con·duc·tor


Function: noun Date: 15th century
: one that conducts: as a: guide b: a collector of fares in a public conveyance c: the leader of a musical ensemble d (1): a material or object that permits an electric current to flow easily — compare insulator , semiconductor (2): a material capable of transmitting another form of energy (as heat or sound)
— con·duc·to·ri·al

adjective

__________________________

Note that I emboldened the word “easily”, and underlined it, but in no other way changed the definition.

Is it that we argue the same point, with exception that it conducts easily?

[Painless]

Isn't the difference between conducting and inducting thus:

Conducting - The flow of current through free electrons due to an electrical potential. For example, a battery with a wire connected - to +.

Inducting - The flow of current through free electrons due to the proximity of a magnetic field. For example, input and output coils of a transformer or the coils in an alternator passing the magnets.

Please note, I'm asking a question NOT trying to join the debate!

Russ.

[DaneDHorstead]

Isn't the difference between conducting and inducting thus:

Conducting - The flow of current through free electrons due to an electrical potential. For example, a battery with a wire connected - to +.

Inducting - The flow of current through free electrons due to the proximity of a magnetic field. For example, input and output coils of a transformer or the coils in an alternator passing the magnets.

Please note, I'm asking a question NOT trying to join the debate!

Russ.
Russ;

Prior to looking it up in the dictionary, I would have agreed 100%.........

But the dictionary, doesn't necessarilly agree. However. it's definition does not go as indepth, as I would have thought, either.

Then, I did not look up "induction" either, to get a perspective on the proper use of that particular word, as compared to the former.

Induction, as I always understood it, was passed even through properly insolated wire, by magnetic fields, and it relys on proximity to a potential receiver for the curent, such as a metal rod, or plate.

A transformer, I believe works, through induction.

Both in the use of it in the HHO generators, or in the passage of electric, as in lightning, capacitance plays into it.

And capacitance is probably one of the least understood principals of electric, in the minds of the common man.

People are very easily confused by electric, because it usually is not seen!

Thus, to grasp some understanding of it, folks try to compare it to either a road map, or the flow of a river. Induction, however defys that understanding, of it!

[stephane]

Thank you for your reply... I didn't want to start any war here...

[oicu812]

Thank you for your reply... I didn't want to start any war here...

oh sure make the snowballs and get someone else to throw them

[ajriding]

I bought a plate configuration off ebay, it may or may not be 316L SS.
it was intended for +-+-+-+-+- (8 pair total)
that drew a tremendous amount of amps and produced a lot of heat in the wiring. It made maybe 1/3 liter/ minute with KOH.
I changed it to +nnnn-nnnn+nnnn-.
Now the generator only draws 3-5 amps (I had limited it to 25 before with the pwm I was forced to buy) and seems to put our more gas. I have not measured it yet.
I also wrapped it in an innertube to prevent current flow outside the plates - a brick I think its called.
The neutral plates do the job.

[Consaka]

NaOH and KOH will not greatly affect 304, 316, 317 SS.

Why confuse the issue with 'certain' metals?

Aluminum and NaOH will make Hydrogen as the aluminum dissolves.


Don't use aluminum.

If folks use anything but NaOH or KOH, I believe that they are making an error of judgment.

FWIW


BoyntonStu

Agreed though id add in pure water for those people trying to use HF or some other force other then the brute force method most commonly discussed here.
I really worry about people trying to use Salt as an electrolyte since it can make a poisonous gas. Im a little fuzzy on what it actually becomes after going through the heat of the engine combustion process but im betting its not good.

[bigjim56]

"I really worry about people trying to use Salt as an electrolyte since it can make a poisonous gas. Im a little fuzzy on what it actually becomes after going through the heat of the engine combustion process but im betting its not good."

True, Consaka...

My work is now using this plate technology for the bacterialization of the communities water supply...>40 MGD capacity. They use brine (high concentration salt water) that is fed w/softened water to 5 stages of cells that seperate the chlorine from the brine to form a hypochlorite solution. This solution comes out at at 6000-7500 ppm chlorine concentration!
These cells are much like our dry cells, except their titanium plated, and much bigger, a rough guess would be about 4' X 4' in size. Believe it or not, the by-product here is Hydrogen...they don't want it, its exhausted thru high volume exhaust fans out the roof. This is a brand new system, and its working quite well. Part of the reason for the changeover from 2-ton chlorine cylinders to this Hypo-generator system was because of insurance (terrorist)
concerns and handling safety.

Anyone that uses salt water in their cells is probably doing it because of the lack of other desireable waters available, IMO. the resultant chlorine gas that emits is NOT GOOD for breathing or as an induction agent into your engine. It is corrosive, but unlike NaOH or KOH...IT IS A GAS...it will enter your engine much easier than a solid that mostly stays behind in the bubbler water.
I've experienced some carryover of KOH into the bubbler, but its been minute and negligible (bubbler pH tests).

bigjim56

[truckman1966]

this is my first post here and i have had some heat issues although i am using neutral plates or u plates or whatever you wanna call them. had to rebuild my acrylic box style gen when i was using stainless wire. i have 2 sets of 9 plate. they are -N+N-N+N-. they were hung from the top of the chamber and had connections on the top but no both are mounted separately, one on each side, with a separate power source. any ideas or thoughts on my unit?

[HHO BLASTER]

this is my first post here and i have had some heat issues although i am using neutral plates or u plates or whatever you wanna call them. had to rebuild my acrylic box style gen when i was using stainless wire. i have 2 sets of 9 plate. they are -N+N-N+N-. they were hung from the top of the chamber and had connections on the top but no both are mounted separately, one on each side, with a separate power source. any ideas or thoughts on my unit?

Is it a wet cell?

[truckman1966]

yes. would you like pictures/video?

[HHO BLASTER]

yes. would you like pictures/video?

yes, please

[truckman1966]

http://s712.photobucket.com/albums/ww122/truckman1966/?action=view&current=0424091154.jpg

[ajriding]

+-+-+-... makes a steam generator. you need what they call neutral plates between the +'s and the -'s.
This will reduce the heat and split the voltage.
A neutral plate is one that is not hooked up to a power source, yet the current flows through it the same from one charge (+) to the other (-).
People are using 3,4 or 5 neutral plates. +nnnn-nnnn+nnnn-
You will draw less amps and create more gas.
There are many forum topics on neutral plates.