I am relatively new to HHO so...

[Dave Nowlin]

I have some questions. When using Potassium Hydroxide as an electrolyte it is my understanding that as the liquid is used up in producing HHO that distilled water needs to be put in the tank for a dry cell system. The problem is some seem to promote the idea of mixing a large quantity of electrolyte and using it to top up the tank when the liquid level goes down. Now here is the question. If water is lost from the tank but Potassium Hydroxide isn't, then wouldn't the concentration level of the Potassium Hydroxide get stronger and stronger? Wouldn't the amp draw also get higher and higher? If my understanding about all this is wrong, please tell me what am I overlooking. Above all be patient with me as I am trying to learn all I can and asking questions of those who have already traveled the road is a great way to learn.

Dave Nowlin

[H2OPWR]

I have some questions. When using Potassium Hydroxide as an electrolyte it is my understanding that as the liquid is used up in producing HHO that distilled water needs to be put in the tank for a dry cell system. The problem is some seem to promote the idea of mixing a large quantity of electrolyte and using it to top up the tank when the liquid level goes down. Now here is the question. If water is lost from the tank but Potassium Hydroxide isn't, then wouldn't the concentration level of the Potassium Hydroxide get stronger and stronger? Wouldn't the amp draw also get higher and higher? If my understanding about all this is wrong, please tell me what am I overlooking. Above all be patient with me as I am trying to learn all I can and asking questions of those who have already traveled the road is a great way to learn.

Dave Nowlin

If your cell is running hot enough to make steam about 100F or higher KOH will come off with your gas. Lower temps the KOH stays in the cell for the most part. Just add distilled water until you see amp draw coming down then add additional KOH. Your thinking is correct in that adding full strength electrolite to top off your resevoir will increase amp draw if your cell is not running hot. If it is running hot you need to re think your cell

[Dave Nowlin]

Actually I have bought a dry cell sold by HydroClubUSA that has 9 - 316L plates. It will supposedly produce 1 liter of HHO in 43 seconds. They have a recirculating bubbler tank which is mounted above the generator. I have the bubbler tank and the generator is supposed to be delivered today. They recommend mixing 2 Tablespoons of KOH with 1 quart of distilled water. That seems a rather strong mixture to me. For gaskets they use 3/32 in. O-Rings which are compressed down to 1/32 in. In a few hours I should have this thing up and running after the mail man delivers it. They claim the temperature is very low with this system and the amp draw is about 10 amps. It is wired -NNN+NNN- Only time will tell what really happens. I had previously run a wet cell made with a water filter housing and 3 concentric stainless steel tubes. They were 1, 2 & 3 in. diameter. The one and three inch were negative and the two was positive. I tried distilled water and baking soda, white distilled vinegar & distilled water and KOH as electrolytes. All ran hot. That's why I decided to try a dry cell. I also bought some bigger O-Rings that are 5 in. I.D. that could be used with 6 x 6 plates made of 316L if I should like the way this unit works but simply need more production.

Dave Nowlin

[H2OPWR]

Actually I have bought a dry cell sold by HydroClubUSA that has 9 - 316L plates. It will supposedly produce 1 liter of HHO in 43 seconds. They have a recirculating bubbler tank which is mounted above the generator. I have the bubbler tank and the generator is supposed to be delivered today. They recommend mixing 2 Tablespoons of KOH with 1 quart of distilled water. That seems a rather strong mixture to me. For gaskets they use 3/32 in. O-Rings which are compressed down to 1/32 in. In a few hours I should have this thing up and running after the mail man delivers it. They claim the temperature is very low with this system and the amp draw is about 10 amps. It is wired -NNN+NNN- Only time will tell what really happens. I had previously run a wet cell made with a water filter housing and 3 concentric stainless steel tubes. They were 1, 2 & 3 in. diameter. The one and three inch were negative and the two was positive. I tried distilled water and baking soda, white distilled vinegar & distilled water and KOH as electrolytes. All ran hot. That's why I decided to try a dry cell. I also bought some bigger O-Rings that are 5 in. I.D. that could be used with 6 x 6 plates made of 316L if I should like the way this unit works but simply need more production.

Dave Nowlin

I would be very sceptical about these claims. Especially at 10 amps. If they are saying is 1 litre in 43 seconds that is 1395.6 ml per minute. 10 amps at 13.7 volts is 137 watts. The MMW would be 10.19. That is 10% above 100% effecient. It would be great but their 1395.6 ml per minute must be at far higher amp draw.

[Dave Nowlin]

That is very interesting. They have a web site that you can check. The thing that is bothering be right now is that some HHO unit producers don't recommend HHO generators for any vehicle with a turbo. They seem to believe the HHO will damage the intercooler. Then on the other hand there are folks who build big units especially for over the road diesel trucks which also have turbos. Where is the truth here?

Dave Nowlin

[H2OPWR]

That is very interesting. They have a web site that you can check. The thing that is bothering be right now is that some HHO unit producers don't recommend HHO generators for any vehicle with a turbo. They seem to believe the HHO will damage the intercooler. Then on the other hand there are folks who build big units especially for over the road diesel trucks which also have turbos. Where is the truth here?

Dave Nowlin

I would not take a chance on putting the HHO through the turbo or intercooler. I do not know that it will not work but I do know that there is tremendous amounts of heat built up in the turbo. That is why they need intercoolers. I would run the HHO into the intake after the throttle body if I was doing it. That said I would do some serious research before doing it at all. HHO is an attempt to burn less gas and a turbo is an attempt to make more horse power. It seems that that would be going in two directions at once. Again it may work I am simply putting in my two cents worth. That is what these forums are about. I would be very interested in hearing about actual production of your new cell if you have a chance to take measurements. Good luck.

[Dave Nowlin]

I have had a very long conversation on the phone this afternoon with an engineer with Seigrene ( a producer of HHO equipment). He was very honest and answered some questions for me in a very truthful and forthright manner. The problem is there is some carryover of the Potassium Hydroxide or Sodium Hydroxide and when the gas goes through the intercooler liquid will fall out of the airstream in the intercooler which is caustic and may very well eat up the aluminum in the intercooler. They have now made a scrubber to be put in the gas delivery line to remove this carryover of liquid and caustic and drain it back to the liquid tank. They in fact recommend a 21 plate design with 6 in. x 6 in. plates to supply enough HHO to actually create an improvement in fuel economy for my 6.0 liter diesel engine. It will actually draw about 50 amps and produce 8 liters per minute. That seems like a lot but I was told that much is required. It was interesting talking with these folks as they actually were willing to give honest answers to my questions. Many sellers of HHO systems talk in circles and avoid direct answers. I believe this may be the new Amway of the web. Pseudo science and and unproven claims backed with broken promises and attempts to set up resellers.

Dave Nowlin

[Painless]

Dave,

Glad to see you posting at last!

To share the knowledge I've collected so far as concerns turbo or supercharged vehicles, if you attempt to introduce HHO between the turbo and the throttle body, the pressure applied by the turbine will prevent the HHO from exiting the tube as it cannot overcome the pressure. You can either introduce it pre-turbine, or perhaps try introducing it to a vacuum source.

I'm thinking that the vacuum source might be the better idea, although I don't think anyone has tried that with a turbo yet. You would need a ball valve of some sort between the vacuum hose and the HHO output to allow you to tune the vacuum.

Your conversation was correct, KOH and NaOH (both caustic bases) will be carried with water vapour at temps as low as 100 F. This will damage any aluminum it comes into contact with. One answer is to use a cleansing bubbler, such as my own design:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/Cleansing_Bubbler.JPG

[hydrotinkerer]

Painless is correct about putting the gas hose pre-turbo. There is also no vacuum on a diesel. I have had my cell on my cummins turbo diesel for 7 months now with no problems.

[Dave Nowlin]

I have stainless fittings which I custom modified that mount in the intake tubing right before the turbo and downstream of the air flow sensor.

Dave Nowlin

[Dave Nowlin]

Painless, what are the dimensions of this bubbler?

Dave Nowlin

[H2OPWR]

I have had a very long conversation on the phone this afternoon with an engineer with Seigrene ( a producer of HHO equipment). He was very honest and answered some questions for me in a very truthful and forthright manner. The problem is there is some carryover of the Potassium Hydroxide or Sodium Hydroxide and when the gas goes through the intercooler liquid will fall out of the airstream in the intercooler which is caustic and may very well eat up the aluminum in the intercooler. They have now made a scrubber to be put in the gas delivery line to remove this carryover of liquid and caustic and drain it back to the liquid tank. They in fact recommend a 21 plate design with 6 in. x 6 in. plates to supply enough HHO to actually create an improvement in fuel economy for my 6.0 liter diesel engine. It will actually draw about 50 amps and produce 8 liters per minute. That seems like a lot but I was told that much is required. It was interesting talking with these folks as they actually were willing to give honest answers to my questions. Many sellers of HHO systems talk in circles and avoid direct answers. I believe this may be the new Amway of the web. Pseudo science and and unproven claims backed with broken promises and attempts to set up resellers.

Dave Nowlin

Dave I would really love to beleive these claims. That production at those amps assuming 13.7 volts would be 11.68 MMW. 100% effeciency would be 9.3 MMW or close. That is the point where you are getting out as much energy as you put in. I would double check to make sure that the LPM claim is not on a 24 volt system before I spent my money. Even on a 24 volt system those would be outstanding numbers at half the MMW.

[Painless]

Painless, what are the dimensions of this bubbler?

Dave Nowlin

I made mine from a 3" wide, 12" tall piece of PVC pipe, but you can use something smaller, as long as there is enough hose in the spiral and a cool flow of air to keep the water / vinegar cool.

[Dave Nowlin]

I went back and checked and their info on E-Bay shows 4.5+ lpm @ 55 amps. How does that compute?

Dave Nowlin

[H2OPWR]

Almost 6MMW. Still very outstanding if the cell temp is under 100F. I have seen many people claim that type of production but not show cell temps. Remember the MMW measurements measure everything including steam. If steam is desirable then all you have to do is wrap copper tubing around your exhaust and feed it with a resevoir. Easy and cheap. My best advise is to be wary of all claims that you can not see all factors in a beleivable test. One thing to remember when watching tests is that you can not see pure HHO. Steam is very visable. With steam you will get electrolite in your engine which damages aluminum. Just be cautious before spending your hard earned money. Most (not all but most) of the HHO cell sellers are just after a quick profit without caring about the end user's results.

[Dave Nowlin]

Well today I contacted HydroClubUSA and told them their unit hasn'r arrived yet and is not suited for my diesel and I would like to return it for a refund. Guess what they said? They said no! So I have now filed a Pay Pal dispute because they won't allow me to return it even though it is unused. When I asked questions about the unit they were somewhat deceptive and indicated they were very busy and didn't have much time to speak with me. Their excuse is well you bought it and we didn't twist your arm. While that is true, they did tell me the unit had enough output for the many other customers they had sold.

Dave Nowlin

[H2OPWR]

Dave, I am sorry to hear that they will not return your money. I hope Pay Pal will do something about it. I really have my doubts though. It is a shame that some people are actually taking advantage of people like this example. It makes this great technology lose faith and make non beleivers out of thousands of people each day. Even if you do not get your money back you will be farther ahead. You would have spent at least the cost of the cell on all the missing things that you need to make this cell work. It is missing the wiring, relay, resevoir, bubbler, hose, hose clamps etc. All those things cost money as well and need to be sized for the HHO generator that you eventually end up with. Again just my 2 cents worth but if I were buying one I would like to see some beleavable tests first and even insist on a return policy if promised output of the cell could not be acheived.

[Dave Nowlin]

Well I heard back from Pay Pal. Even though the output they claim on their website is impossible and they missrepresented the product Pay Pal will do nothing. I still have an ace up my sleeve. Pay Pal was paid through my Visa card and I can file a protest through them. Pay Pal wants you to set up where the money is taken directly from your bank account. I didn't do that so I still have protection through my credit card. When they access your bank account directly, you have no protection.

Dave Nowlin