Can we get a consensus?

[coffeeachiever]

I have spent the past eleven months studying electrolosis. I have built nine generators ranging from fender washers and wall plates in a wet cell to my latest (which is finally good enough to install) 21 plate EBN style dry cell. I have read nearly every word on this forum(I know most of you like neighbors) and a lot of some others. I am a self declared expert on HHO and I still am unsure of the best place to put my output hose on my truck. Is it the breather, pcv valve, EGR line.......? Does it just depend on the vehicle? If it matters, I'm installing in an '86 Toyota pick up with a carb. I'm putting out between 2 and 3 lpm depending on which wiring configuration I use.
I'm doing the install in the morning and I guess I'll be trying the breather housing first unless someone can give me a reason to go another route.
Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,
Coffee

[HHOinKY]

Air intake seems to be the most accepted safe injection point. Vacuum lines are no good because of the potential of sucking in stuff you don't want to.

I haven't installed mine yet, but this is just from what I've read.

[daddymikey1975]

Air intake seems to be the most accepted safe injection point. Vacuum lines are no good because of the potential of sucking in stuff you don't want to.

I haven't installed mine yet, but this is just from what I've read.

I concur.

since yours is carbureted though, you only need to go into the intake air stream between the filter and the carb.

you'll also need to adjust your A/F ratio to lower the amount of fuel used ( i believe )

most people use PCV or vacuum in order to (allegedly) bypass or eliminate the need for electronic mods as the ECU (allegedly) doesn't 'see' the HHO if it's piped in through vacuum. And this is based on what I've read on several forums.

I hope this helps
mike

[mikem1977]

Glad to see im not the only one playing with a carb. Mine is a 89 2wd yota with carb. My present test cell is a smacks cell in a different style container. Being winter and all its tough to get the cell up to temp to actually put out some descent gas, im still screwing with quite a bit. I just installed a cheapy pwm and an anaolg ammter in my cab so I can keep an eye on things. I originally ran my hho into the top of the air cleaner where the valve cover vents, last week I made up a little nipple/tube and drilled out the air cleaner cover directly over the "primary" carb throat, thats where all the vacuum is coming from. Anyhow, I dont think im making enough gas to really do much, only about 300ml when its cold and it usually only goes on short runs. I would try it where the valve cover vents and dont touch the carb until you get some fuel through it. IM excited to see some results!...keep us posted...MIke

[Super Fuel FX]

I think that mikem has a good location for it... straight to the center of the earth... I mean carb...

[coffeeachiever]

I concur.

since yours is carbureted though, you only need to go into the intake air stream between the filter and the carb.

you'll also need to adjust your A/F ratio to lower the amount of fuel used ( i believe )

most people use PCV or vacuum in order to (allegedly) bypass or eliminate the need for electronic mods as the ECU (allegedly) doesn't 'see' the HHO if it's piped in through vacuum. And this is based on what I've read on several forums.

I hope this helps
mike

Thanks guys for confirming that. Trial and error sucks arse. It's much better to ask.
Mike's comment about the a/f ratio brings me to my next question.
If I'm piping the HHO directly to the carb, then aren't I bypassing all that anyway?
By the way, I'm getting around 25 mpg without HHO. I do a fair amount of driving so I'll be able to post results with just HHO and no mods in two or three days. The old truck has almost 300,000 miles on it and it's still kickin' like a chickin.

Coffee

[mikem1977]

Here is my understanding of the whole hho increasing fuel mileage.... in the shortest explanation as possible..... You add hho to your fuel mixture which allows you to lean the mixture down and not hurt the motor.....Pretty simple sounding I think. Now what ive heard is that by introducing the hho your burn is much cleaner and more complete...so...in theory, with a carburetor...you should be able to add the hho...provided its a sufficient amount...to your engine, without leaning down the carb, now..... when your driving you shouldnt need to step on the throtlle quite so hard to get the same output from you engine therefore saving you fuel!

As far as cutting back the fuel with a stock carb on the yota there is not much you can do from what I understand as far as rejetting goes, you could mess with the idle mixture but that wont do anything once your "off idle"...I could go on and on....so my idea is to test this with NO mods to the carb, I should see some results. Ive had this little truck for a year and have kept track of every tank of gas...so If I get anything better than 26mpg something is working. There is the option of an aftermarket weber carb, then you could go crazy playing with jetting and different amounts of HHO, as long as you dont overlean the engine..that would be bad:)

If your making 2+ lpm it should do something when you introduce it to the engine...what kind of amps is that cell gonna draw to make that? Ive read that the yota alternator can only sustain about 30A constant max of 60A?...keep us posted. I think my biggest problem is im not making enough gas...im looking into going to a dry cell, just not sure which way to go!...Mike

[coffeeachiever]

Mikem1977 those are my thoughts exactly. I'm getting 2-3 liters easy just running the unit off my battery with jumper cables. Only getting around 10-11 volts to the cell that way. Not sure about amps yet, but I'll let you know. Trust me when I tell you that a dry cell is the way to go. I have no more heat issues and this thing really puts out the gas. When I get it hooked up and pulling 13-14 volts I'll post the measurements.
The problem I'm having now is Lowe's has stopped selling Roebic because people are making crystal meth with it. I don't quite have enough left to fill my cell back up so.....
Coffee

[mikem1977]

thats alot of gas...real curious to see what your amp draw is...like I said the yota's little alternator supposedly doesnt put out all that much and even pulling 15 amps the rpms drop a bit. Id try a place that sells supplies for making soap, they usually carry it, you can get it online as well, is your unit installed yet? Id like to know if when the hho is hooked up and the truck is running do you get an icrease in rpm?....keep me posted...Mike

[coffeeachiever]

To answer your questions--I did not get it hooked up today because I spent my entire afternoon hunting down electrolyte. I finally found it at Tractor Supply Co.
I am bench testing the new generator as I type this on the iPhone. It has been running for about an hour now on jumper cables going straight to my battery. I'm at 9.86 volts and drawing between 8 and 12 amps. The amps are fluctuating wildly- I'm guessing because it is a circulating system. I'm just using gravity right now, but i'm considering trying a pump later.
The unit is producing just under 2lpm. The top of the cell is between 80 and 90 degrees (educated guess.)
I'll be using a much bigger resivior tank when I install it, so temperature should be a non issue.
I get off work at 2 tomorrow and I am racing straight to the house to slap this baby on the truck. I'll do a volume test before I pipe it into the intake since it'll be pulling more voltage from the alternator.
As soon as I get some figures I'll post them.
Coffee

[daddymikey1975]

Here is my understanding of the whole hho increasing fuel mileage.... in the shortest explanation as possible..... You add hho to your fuel mixture which allows you to lean the mixture down and not hurt the motor.....Pretty simple sounding I think. Now what ive heard is that by introducing the hho your burn is much cleaner and more complete...so...in theory, with a carburetor...you should be able to add the hho...provided its a sufficient amount...to your engine, without leaning down the carb, now..... when your driving you shouldnt need to step on the throtlle quite so hard to get the same output from you engine therefore saving you fuel!

As far as cutting back the fuel with a stock carb on the yota there is not much you can do from what I understand as far as rejetting goes, you could mess with the idle mixture but that wont do anything once your "off idle"...I could go on and on....so my idea is to test this with NO mods to the carb, I should see some results. Ive had this little truck for a year and have kept track of every tank of gas...so If I get anything better than 26mpg something is working. There is the option of an aftermarket weber carb, then you could go crazy playing with jetting and different amounts of HHO, as long as you dont overlean the engine..that would be bad:)



I agree with the testing aspect. Shouldn't need to adjust a/f mixture with a carb, however I believe you'll need to in order to get results.. or i should say, you'll want to in order to get BETTER results..

not modding the carb at all and adding HHO WILL yield some results by you not pushing on the gas to achieve the desired effect, however you'll be able to reduce the fuel consumption by installing a fuel pressure regulator and dial down the amount of fuel entering the carb. (and this is just an idea.. I don't know toyotas that well, but if there's no real air fuel adjustment, this could be another way to reduce the amount of fuel going into the carb.

just my 2 cents.
all these ways are worth a try for sure.

mike

[coffeeachiever]

Sounds like a good idea DaddyMikey. For budgetary reasons I'll have to try it with no mods first. I just dropped $600 on custom cut ss plates and neoprene gaskets. My credit card is smoking. Unless someone comes up with a reason not to, I'll try the fuel pressure regulator in a couple of weeks.

[mikem1977]

I totally agree that cutting back the fuel would be necessary to see BETTER results, i do believe that you should see some without. AS far as a fuel pressure regulator cutting back the fuel delivered.... I dont see how that would do much. With my experience...and im no carb expert, the fuel pressure is set to keep fuel in the float bowl, too much pressure.... it will push past the needle valve overflowing the float bowl and dumping excess fuel into the intake....as long as theres fuel in the float bowl, the carb is still gonna deliver what its gonna deliver based on air flow and jet size, someone please correct me if im wrong. The only way that I know of to lean a carb down is with smaller jets. If I could actually see some solid results I would without a DOUBT spend the money on a new weber carb, get a nice selection of jets, a high output alternator, a cell that can crank out some nice volume of hho and see whats possible:)..I just want to see some results so I can find some more incentive:).....coffee, you got any pics of your setup and its layout? IM gonna build one!....

[crewdog]

I totally agree that cutting back the fuel would be necessary to see BETTER results, i do believe that you should see some without. AS far as a fuel pressure regulator cutting back the fuel delivered.... I dont see how that would do much. With my experience...and im no carb expert, the fuel pressure is set to keep fuel in the float bowl, too much pressure.... it will push past the needle valve overflowing the float bowl and dumping excess fuel into the intake....as long as theres fuel in the float bowl, the crab is still gonna deliver what its gonna deliver based on air flow and jet size, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. The only way that I know of to lean a crab down is with smaller jets. If I could actually see some solid results I would without a DOUBT spend the money on a new weber crab, get a nice selection of jets, a high output alternator, a cell that can crank out some nice volume of Ho and see whats possible:)..I just want to see some results so I can find some more incentive:).....coffee, you got any pics of your setup and its layout? I'M gonna build one!....

Changing the jet will give the best results you must lean out the main jets and the idle. The best results would be to change the main jets buy 2 to 4 numbers. Jets can be hard to find for stock cabs so a way to cheat this is to lower the float level. I would try to go 1 to 2 sixtieths at a time. a fuel pressure regulator will not help unless your needle and seat are going bad.

[coffeeachiever]

Mikem1977, my computer is down with a virus and I'm posting everything with my iPhone. I can however email pics with the phone if you want to pm me your email address. I even have an extra plate and gasket so you can see what they look like outside the cell. I'll also let you know what I've learned from this and what I'll do different next time so you're cell can be better than what mine is.
I can send pre and post install pics tomorrow afternoon.

Coffee

[coffeeachiever]

Also, if you are able, you are welcome to post the pics to this thread.

Coffee

[mikem1977]

sounds good man. pm sent

[daddymikey1975]

a fuel pressure regulator will not help unless your needle and seat are going bad.

I humbly stand corrected :-)

(and that's why i'm not a mechanic)

mike

[mikem1977]

Ya know thats whats cool about these forums, lots of people working toward the same things....two heads are always better than one:)...
Crewdog...how does lowering the float level change the amount of fuel delivered? ..by lowering the float level you are keeping less fuel in the bowl correct?....I wish more people were working on carb'd engines:)

[coffeeachiever]

I finally got the thing put on my truck about 11:00 last night. I e mailed mikem1977 the pics this morning and he said he would be kind enough to post them here for me. Thanks mike.
I'll fill up my tank when I get off work today and start keeping track.

Coffee

[mikem1977]

I got the pics but im at work till 7 am thursday, ill get them posted then!...Mike

[coffeeachiever]

I ran into a small snag this morning. The toggle switch I installed could not handle the amps going through it and failed on me. Mikem1977 sent over a diagram for a relay switch. It looks like that is the way I'll have to go. I still have to start over with the mpg calcs though. He also said that he tried to post the pics of my system and drawings this morning, but the file size was too big. I don't know if I can do the photo bucket with my phone or not, but I will find a way to get the pics to this thread.

[coffeeachiever]

Got it. Here are the pics.

http://s377.photobucket.com/albums/oo214/coffeeachiever1/

[coffeeachiever]

I'll add the drawings tomorrow while I'm at work. If anyone is interested, I'll explain what I did wrong and what I'll do differently next time.

[coffeeachiever]

If anyone is still reading this thread, I need to know if there is any way to adjust the air/fuel ratio in a carbed engine other than changing out the jets. I'm going to rewire the generator tomorrow to put out max gas. So far I haven't seen the results I was hoping for. I haven't done any milage calculations yet, but it almost seems as though I'm using more gasoline than before. This would make sense to me if I was fuel injected and had a fuel computer, but I'm not and I don't.
The alternator did seem to have a problem keeping up at first. Immediately after installing the unit, my headlights were dimmer and I stalled a couple of times. Oddly enough, the little truck has seemed to adapt to the addition of the fuel cell and I am no longer having any issues. I don't understand that at all.
So I guess the question now is, am I using more fuel than normal to keep up with the energy demand of the fuel cell, should I lean out the gasoline, and anything else you can think of to get me on track.
Thanks to anyone who has ideas.

[H2OPWR]

If anyone is still reading this thread, I need to know if there is any way to adjust the air/fuel ratio in a carbed engine other than changing out the jets. I'm going to rewire the generator tomorrow to put out max gas. So far I haven't seen the results I was hoping for. I haven't done any milage calculations yet, but it almost seems as though I'm using more gasoline than before. This would make sense to me if I was fuel injected and had a fuel computer, but I'm not and I don't.
The alternator did seem to have a problem keeping up at first. Immediately after installing the unit, my headlights were dimmer and I stalled a couple of times. Oddly enough, the little truck has seemed to adapt to the addition of the fuel cell and I am no longer having any issues. I don't understand that at all.
So I guess the question now is, am I using more fuel than normal to keep up with the energy demand of the fuel cell, should I lean out the gasoline, and anything else you can think of to get me on track.
Thanks to anyone who has ideas.

Ere you absoletely sure that your carb is not controlled by a ECM. 1986 is long after most EPA policie's went into effect. I know you do not have an EBD2 port but you do have many things added to control emissions.

[crb]

It would be nice if you have a a/f gage to monitor your work.
You could give it a controlled vacuum leak to lower your a/f ratio.

crb

[mikem1977]

My truck, 1989, carbed, also a toyota has no OBD. Is there a o2 sensor on your exhaust anywhere? If not you shouldnt have to worry about anything but the carb and timing. Did you ever hook up an ampmeter and see what kinda current your drawing? On my setup I can adjust the pwm and at about 12 amps the rpms drop substantially! I noticed on my first tank of fuel when I had the cell setup to draw 13-14 amps cold and 20 hot that my mileage was reduced from an avg of 24 down to 21! This tank of fuel I set the soltution so that it draws about 6amps at 40 degrees and maxes out around 16, according to my fuel gauge im a little better off than I was proior to installing the cell, I wont know exactly till I top it off again. As far as I know, swapping jets is the only way I know of to really cut back the fuel. With the stock toyota carb it may bot be an option. Have you done a flow test with the cell in your truck with the truck running....you need to figure out how many amps your pulling. ....Mike

[coffeeachiever]

I had looked up and down the exhaust and all around the cat. converter and was sure there was no O2 sensor. Just now I checked the auto zone web site and they say I have one hidden in the exhaust manifold. Doh!
Mike, I will do a flow test tonight with the cell running off the alternator. I will also test the amp draw with the Fluke meter. Right now I have it set up with 4 neutrals between charged plates. During bench testing I tried three neutrals and production went through the roof. I will try that again with alternator power and check the amp draw with that.
I do not have a pwm yet. I am a lowly paramedic working for a private service and money is a huge issue. I am counting on painless and HHOPWR to get me through the most expensive parts of R&D. A pwm is coming in the near future though.
The wife is making me put up the Christmas tree tonight, but I will test and post after that.
Thanks to all for the input.

[mikem1977]

They show my truck hac=ving one as well...no idea where it is..ive looked everywhere...gues ill look some more.

[mikem1977]

Ok...so I started from the muffler all the way to the header flanges and I do not have one on my truck....

[coffeeachiever]

Mike,
I did the same thing. The diagram shows that it is hidden some what.
Here is the link with the diagram.

http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageld=0900c1528004d4259f

Select Emission Controls then Oxygen Sensor systems

The diagram will be a little more than halfway down the page.

[H2OPWR]

Ok...so I started from the muffler all the way to the header flanges and I do not have one on my truck....

According to the link that coffee posted thre is one. But it is in the rear of the Cat. My guess would be that it would have no decision power with fuel trims anyway. Just there to trigger a CEL if your Cat is bad. Not sure but just an educated guess.

[H2OPWR]

Looking up other components and your truck does have a MAF sensor. My guess is that the ECM does in someway control fuel. Otherwise why the MAF. Just a guess.

[mikem1977]

This shows a picture of where it is suppose to be, its not!
http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c15280060da1

This autozone site is covering 89-96....They show a few things that dont exist, like the MAF....theres not a single sensor in the intake????I know the truck is all original so who knows?????

[mikem1977]

The website also says the ECM is under the kick panel driver side, nothing there but the fuse box and some relays.....looks like I have 0 OBD?????

[coffeeachiever]

Okay-voltage on initial start up is 10.93. Initial amp draw is 4.86. After 30 minutes at idle voltage is 10.05 and amp draw is avg around 6.38 with occasional spikes of over 8. I posted pics of the Fluke meter on the photobucket link, but they only show what I just said.
I am completely out of tubing and am unable to do a gas measurement, but I am confident it is making 2+ lpm. I will pick up some more tubing tomorrow or Monday to verify. I will also change the wiring to make it 3 neutrals instead of 4 between charged plates and see what the production increase, voltage and amp draw are.
One interesting thing that I noticed- it was either painless' or HHOPWR's thread that said the cells hold a charge after the power supply was removed. I left the meter on after killing the power and my cell held two volts for a minute and then slowly began to discharge. I did not wait to see how long it takes to discharge. That is something for another time, but definitely noteworthy.

[coffeeachiever]

Looking up other components and your truck does have a MAF sensor. My guess is that the ECM does in someway control fuel. Otherwise why the MAF. Just a guess.

I don't know what to make of the auto zone site yet. I'll try to track down the stuff it says I have tomorrow. I'll post zome pics of what little electronics I do have too.

[mikem1977]

That doesnt sound right...your voltage should be more like 13-14 if the alternator is charging. Check your voltage across the battery with the engine off, then start the truck and check it again. You may have lost the fuse for the charge circuit or alt..or battery is going....Hopefully not the alternator. If you are making 2lpm that would be a MMW of over 30!!....that would be sweet:)

[H2OPWR]

I hope he is making 2lpm at 65 watts. That would not only be sweet but would change the world. That is three times what it takes to be 100 percent effecient.

[coffeeachiever]

I must be doing something wrong then. I have learned to pretty well guage the lpm. I will get the tubing today. Reading the meter is pretty straight forward I would think.
I am taking the readings where the wires going to the cell junction together. The actual voltage and amps the cell is recieving. Those wires junction about 1 foot from the cell.

[overtaker]

You must measure the amps in-line and not across the pos. and neg. terminals of your cell or you will get false readings. Hope this helps.

[mikem1977]

I was just saying that if your only getting 10 volts to the cell something is up, try what I said ( measuring across the battery) to make sure your alternator is working, Without the truck running a charged battery should show at least 12.7v if its charged and 13+ with the alternator charging.

[coffeeachiever]

It was stormy last night and I couldn't connect to the Internet to post the numbers, but here they are.
I took readings from the battery with the truck off, running with fuel cell off and running with fuel cell on. Y'all were right, the numbers are quite different.

Batt voltage truck off: 11.4
Batt amps truck off: 5.1

Batt voltage running: 14
Batt amps running: 7.3

Batt voltage running and cell charged: 12.38
Batt amps running and cell charged: 15 avg.

I have developed leaks in the reivoir gas out fitting and in the top of my bubbler. This whole project seems to be an excersize in problem solving. I will address those issues today and get an lpm measurment posted asap.
Thanks,

[Painless]

I have developed leaks in the reivoir gas out fitting and in the top of my bubbler. This whole project seems to be an excersize in problem solving. I will address those issues today and get an lpm measurment posted asap.
Thanks,

Coffee,

If your leaks are where the hose meets the barb, pop into Lowes and pick up some of their smallest hose clamps from the plumbing section. If it's leaking around where the barb screws into the cell, either get some thread sealant tape or even better pick up some plumbers goop (also from Lowes) and glue those barb threads in. I've had great results with the latter.

Leaks are so annoying! Stu, please hurry up and save us all with your new fitting idea!!! :)

Russ.

[Super Fuel FX]

Don't think that was enough begging... How about I throw in a few tears and "You're the greatest HHO Master EVER!" (Don't worry painless, your due diligence rates you up there too - just don't tell Stu!):D

[coffeeachiever]

Coffee,

If your leaks are where the hose meets the barb, pop into Lowes and pick up some of their smallest hose clamps from the plumbing section. If it's leaking around where the barb screws into the cell, either get some thread sealant tape or even better pick up some plumbers goop (also from Lowes) and glue those barb threads in. I've had great results with the latter.

Leaks are so annoying! Stu, please hurry up and save us all with your new fitting idea!!! :)

Russ.

I did not have a tap to make threads for the fittings, so I had the bright idea to drill tight holes and use PVC glue and JB weld to hold them in. The fittings on the cell itself are tapped in, but none of the others are. I guess I'll have to use tomorrow's lunch money to get that tap.

[Painless]

I did not have a tap to make threads for the fittings, so I had the bright idea to drill tight holes and use PVC glue and JB weld to hold them in. The fittings on the cell itself are tapped in, but none of the others are. I guess I'll have to use tomorrow's lunch money to get that tap.

I don't have a thread tap either, I use a brass barb, drill the hole, heat the brass barb up with a torch and then use it to make the thread.

[coffeeachiever]

I don't have a thread tap either, I use a brass barb, drill the hole, heat the brass barb up with a torch and then use it to make the thread.


I remember reading that in your thread now that you mention it.
Good idea.

[Super Fuel FX]

I don't have a thread tap either, I use a brass barb, drill the hole, heat the brass barb up with a torch and then use it to make the thread.

How does the brass hold up to the electrolyte? I'm sure it's fine, since you are still doing it, but it's better safe to ask than be sorry down the road.

[Painless]

How does the brass hold up to the electrolyte? I'm sure it's fine, since you are still doing it, but it's better safe to ask than be sorry down the road.

Brass goes nasty after a while, but I don't use it for the barb, just to cut the thread for the nylon one.

[Super Fuel FX]

Sweet. Need to remember that one.

[Painless]

I would recommend making a test thread or two first though, you need to heat the barb just enough so that it needs a little effort to turn and cut the thread, if you heat it too much it's just like turning it into butter and difficult to cut straight.