Flow analysis of a dry cell

[Zymosan]

I figured I'd put this on a new thread and not thread-jack boyntons one.

I ran my dry cell through solidworks flo simulation.
Just so you have a basic idea, it has 38 20 gauge plates, and 1/16 thick buytl rubber gaskets. The size of the holes are .565.

I have holes at the bottom and top of my plates, all in line.
But when I ran the sim., at 1 GPM inlet and flowing out to atmospheric pressure, the water just shot across the bottom holes to the opposite end plate and then up that last plate. Some water did go in b/t the plates near the inlet, but not much.

Those of you w/ clear end plates, can you see the water flowing up either of those plates against the end pieces?
Would water flowing up a plate help to dislodge some bubbles?

The first picture is my original config. w/ all the holes lined up. The second pic has the holes rotated 90 deg. so no two holes line up.

[BoyntonStu]

Zymosan,


Excellent work!

I would appreciate it if you can simulate the following:

1> 15 plates with a single 0.25 hole at the top and which each plate's hole alternates left/right/left....

2> Same as 1 but with the end plate having its single hole on its bottom.


Thanks,

BoyntonStu

[Zymosan]

Will do. I ran that one with the freebie version that came with solidworks. When I get the full blown version up and working I'll put yours into that one.
The full blown version takes gravity into account, which will be usefull for yours.
I'll need some dimensions on your plates and the size of the gap in b/t them.

[Boltazar]

I think its important to realize that the water is not pumped through the cell. The water is sucked through as the gas escapes bringing/pushing some water with it. There is no pump just gravity and what ever movement is made by the gasses escaping.

[Zymosan]

I know they pump themselves, but I went ahead and put a modified fuel pump on mine.
When I rotated the plates with the holes at 90deg to each other and disconnected the pump, the water just trickled out of the dry cell.
May have been to much to pump through all on it's own.

[BoyntonStu]

Will do. I ran that one with the freebie version that came with solidworks. When I get the full blown version up and working I'll put yours into that one.
The full blown version takes gravity into account, which will be usefull for yours.
I'll need some dimensions on your plates and the size of the gap in b/t them.

Great!

Please try 3 wide x 6 high plates (14 cells deep) with 0.025 and 0.050
spacings.


Assume a 14" head pressure feeding a top 0.25 hole, and next a 20" head feeding the same diameter bottom hole.

If the model performs poorly please try increasing the hole diameter to 0.5 and see if it helps.

BTW I am designing a 6" high x 12" wide Giant Amoeba Cell.

Is "Giant Amoeba" an oxymoron like Jumbo Shrimp?

Thanks for your contributions.

BoyntonStu

[Zymosan]

So you really have 15 total plates correct?
A few more dimensions needed here, so picky are these computers.

How thick are your plates?
How wide are your gaskets? Should I cover 1/4" all the way around?
Where do you want the hole? To one side, then staggered left/right/left?

I think giant amoeba works. Like calling a big guy tiny.

[Zymosan]

Another question.
Do you think it is correct to put the output of the flow test at atmospheric pressure? That's pretty much like pumping the water out of the cell onto the ground.

In the freebie version of the flow sim. you have to define either the inlet or the outlet w/ a pressure. Say 10psi.
The other side of the flow is either a mass flow rate, pounds per second , or a volume flow rate, cubic feet per second.

It's been so long since I've worked w/ the full blown version I can't remember what you have to input.

[BoyntonStu]

So you really have 15 total plates correct?
A few more dimensions needed here, so picky are these computers.

How thick are your plates?
How wide are your gaskets? Should I cover 1/4" all the way around?
Where do you want the hole? To one side, then staggered left/right/left?

I think giant amoeba works. Like calling a big guy tiny.

Hi,

The inputs requested are important, not picky.

15 total plates #20 gauge 0.0375"

Yes, 1/4" wide perimeter gasket.

Exactly correct. To one side, then staggered left/right/left.

Output head pressure should be the bubbler height ~ 12" plus an indeterminate pressure caused by the output lifting some liquid back to the reservoir.

The Amoeba Cell output can fill a hard to blow by mouth balloon.

I guess a few psi.

Output head pressure? Your guess is probably better than mine.

Anything else needed to analyze the Amoeba Cell?

Godzilla watch out! The giant Amoeba is coming to gobble you up.

Thanks,

BoyntonStu

[Zymosan]

Stu, I was wondering where do you want the input/output holes on your end plates? In the middle of the end piece or off to one side like the plates?

[BoyntonStu]

Stu, I was wondering where do you want the input/output holes on your end plates? In the middle of the end piece or off to one side like the plates?

Alternate each plate left to right.

With odd # of plates (15) they are in line unless we upside down one of them which I would like to try.

BoyntonStu

[Zymosan]

I was hoping to get you a picture up here today w/ the .025 spacing and the holes on the bottom, but it's been running for 2 hours and is only half way done. So I'll leave it on all night and post the pics in the morning.

[BoyntonStu]

I was hoping to get you a picture up here today w/ the .025 spacing and the holes on the bottom, but it's been running for 2 hours and is only half way done. So I'll leave it on all night and post the pics in the morning.

Wow!

That TRS-80 is mighty slow.


Thanks, I eagerly await the results.


BoyntonStu

[Zymosan]

Yeah, I couldn't imagine how slow that would be on an older computer.
Still didn't get the full version working so I ran this one on the freebie.
The first one is done, but I'm not sure if I had the proper inlet/outlet conditions.
The inlet was at 14" of head, or 6.06 psi. The outlet I had to put a gpm on, so I used 1gpm.
The first shot is of the very 1st endplate.
The second shot is a side view of it w/ the inlet on the right.
The third shot is an isometric view, see how low that water is near the outlet?
The fourth shot is a close up of the bottom holes.
And the fifth shot is an iso. view of the bottom holes.

The darker the blue, the slower the flow. The darkest blue is 0in/second.
The green is around 170 in/sec. And the yellow is around 250 in/sec.

Do your gaskets have a 90deg corner or are they cut w/ a radius?

[Zymosan]

You'll have to use your imagination as to where the plates are at. This version wont let me do and other view that this. So I had to hide all the gaskets, and most of the plates near the outlet just to get a better picture of the flow.

I'm going to try it again w/ the numbers I used in my flow tests just to see if it makes any difference.

[BoyntonStu]

The inlet was at 14" of head, or 6.06 psi. The outlet I had to put a gpm on, so I used 1gpm.
The first shot is of the very 1st endplate.
The second shot is a side view of it w/ the inlet on the right.
The third shot is an isometric view, see how low that water is near the outlet?
The fourth shot is a close up of the bottom holes. NO BOTTOM HOLES

See this video.

Amoeba Cell Water flow through 1/4" tubing
A garden hose is connected to the Amoeba Cell. There are 15 2x6 plates with a single 1/4" hole in each, and with 0.050" inner tube gaskets.

The holes on the end plates are centered, but a unit has been built with all holes left or right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5al4_6a2-0o


Do your gaskets have a 90deg corner or are they cut w/ a radius?

Presently 90*, a change to a radius is easily done.

We are getting somewhere.

Since the Amoeba Cell current is constant and efficient, it seems to indicate that all the area is generating without dry sections.

This project is bottomless! LOL

Thanks,

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

You have been quiet for a few days.

How is the code coming?

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

This confirms something I've suspected for a while, current is concentrated on the shortest path through our cells. This is a problem that needs an answer, better MMW will surely be the result.

[BoyntonStu]

I figured this might shed some light on what is going on in a dry cell. This is a picture of one of the neutral plates near the back of the cell. This is on the negative side of the neutral plate.

http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=964&stc=1&d=1227069969

What is it telling you????

Shane,

Nice photo, thanks.

My first impression is that the angle cuts at the top of the plate served no purpose.

If we eliminate the bottom hole, as I have done in the Amoeba Cell, we would also eliminate the dark vertical stripe.

Why vertical? Why not an angle?

It seems that a high current density caused the dark stripe.

The clear area above the top hole indicates that the foam prevented electrolysis.

Th question remains; "What was the efficiency loss (or gain) that caused the stripe?"

I wish that I could contribute more.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

It looks to me that the favourable current path is simply input hole to nearest output hole, hence the stronger stripe from higher current electrolysis.

The EBN guys, btw, are working on a new design of dry cell that is very interesting. The plates (without holes) are suspended in gaskets that feed in from the bottom (through the gaskets) and gas exits out the top of the gasket past a pattern of + shapes (offset to prevent splashing). Fluid level is maintained by slits in the top of the gasket sides, which allow the fluid to flow out and back down to the feed. Effectively, the top of the cell is open, but electrolyte cannot get up that far. A manifold system is used boh to feed electrolyte and to collect HHO. MMW's in excess of 7 have been quoted.

[BoyntonStu]

It looks to me that the favourable current path is simply input hole to nearest output hole, hence the stronger stripe from higher current electrolysis.

The EBN guys, btw, are working on a new design of dry cell that is very interesting. The plates (without holes) are suspended in gaskets that feed in from the bottom (through the gaskets) and gas exits out the top of the gasket past a pattern of + shapes (offset to prevent splashing). Fluid level is maintained by slits in the top of the gasket sides, which allow the fluid to flow out and back down to the feed. Effectively, the top of the cell is open, but electrolyte cannot get up that far. A manifold system is used boh to feed electrolyte and to collect HHO. MMW's in excess of 7 have been quoted.

A single top hole dry cell that is raised higher than normal will produce gas with very little fluid. I have been experimenting with this technique using the Amoeba Cell.

Used this way the generator is essentially a true 'dry' cell.

The negative is that the cell would heat up higher than with the fluid flow.

A thermostat valve could be employed to flush the heat out with cooler electrolyte if necessary.

The question becomes, "When is MMW high enough without requiring extraordinary steps to increase it?"

What practical advantage is there to go from 6 to 8 MMW if current, production, and temperature are within specs?

BoyntonStu

P.S. How's the air restriction running?

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

A single top hole dry cell that is raised higher than normal will produce gas with very little fluid. I have been experimenting with this technique using the Amoeba Cell.

Used this way the generator is essentially a true 'dry' cell.

The negative is that the cell would heat up higher than with the fluid flow.

A thermostat valve could be employed to flush the heat out with cooler electrolyte if necessary.

The question becomes, "When is MMW high enough without requiring extraordinary steps to increase it?"

What practical advantage is there to go from 6 to 8 MMW if current, production, and temperature are within specs?

BoyntonStu

P.S. How's the air restriction running?

BoyntonStu

The only advantage, that I can see, of higher MMW's is for those of us that are limited in the amount of amps that we can pull from our alternator. Additionally, lower amp draw equals less additional power from the engine. But otherwise, I agree that small changes in MMW aren't of the utmost importance.

The air restriction is running fine, my truck still runs as well as it did without it although there are no changes in MPG as of yet. I would really like to experiment further with raising my intake temperature, I will need to dream up some kind of thermal transfer from the exhaust header that will allow me to pull air through it.

[BoyntonStu]

[QUOTE=Shane Jackson;18634]My first impression is that the angle cuts at the top of the plate served no purpose.

They do. It has to do with how I hook up my cell. The pos and neg have only 1 tab cut off and a hole drilled in the other. That is where I run a bolt and hook the power. (I'll post pictures later)

"My first impression is that the angle cuts at the top of the plate served no purpose."

Should have been, "My first impression is that the angle cuts at the top of the plate served no purpose in generating Hydroxy"

If you build an Amoeba Cell, the extra effort to cut the plates and the gaskets is not required.

"Amoeba" as in small, simple, and easy to make, is my goal.

Anything that makes it larger or more complicated is my obsession.

Fewer cuts, fewer holes, etc.

Until it can be shown that adding something will substantially increase its performance, KISS is my standard.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

The question remains; "What was the efficiency loss (or gain) that caused the stripe?"

I'm wondering the same thing.

I think what we have here is a simple case of one of the basic things we know about electricity, it will always take the shortest path, a.k.a. the path of least resistance, to earth.

[theramsey3]

I am wondering how the leak current affects the plates when all of the holes are aligned? Judging from the picture I would assume the cells would produce less hho in the areas of the plate that are leaking current.Does this program account for hho production creating bubbles and creating residual water flow that way?

[BoyntonStu]

First and foremost none of the holes are inline. They all alternate from right to left.

With that said, I can understand a little darker area at the hold due to current leakage, however it does not make since to have a 6 inch long line going from 1 hole to the other. Also considering that you have a bigger hole and more current leakage about 4 inch away to the big hole on the opposing plate. One would think the strips would be horizontal not vertical.

Is 6" the meander distance left to right?

BoyntonStu

P.S. Why the silence on the Double SAFE-T?

I would think that the video shows a unique method achieve safety.

Would you like me to follow it up with a video showing it hooked to my glass jar bubbler?

[wazza129]

can v obtain stress analysis and fluid analysis in flow simulation solidworks?..

two-phase system..dat is.....the pressure of the evolving gases as well as the solution on the end plates......reynolds number of the fluid flow...laamiinar....stresses on bolts...on the walls of the end plates...relation of flowrate on gas production etc...

how to do these anaylsis?..