Stupid question (pics)

[DrBrown]

EDIT
This is the new design, ignore the cell posted below that didnt fit in my container.
http://www.designbydan.com/pt/CELL2.jpg
http://www.designbydan.com/pt/CELL3.jpg


I'm assembling my cell and I wasn't sure about the neutral plates. I'm putting 2 plates 1/16" apart spaced by nylon washers and then putting 2 7/32" thick jam nuts in between the neutrals to keep them grounded together. Here's where Im at right now:

http://www.designbydan.com/pt/12-CELL.jpg

Does that look like its configured right because Im second guessing myself?? I admit freely when it comes to electronics and series cells I suck. So excuse my ignorance.

[HALS-GUNSMITHING]

Most people use blank plates with no hole in the middle. You are loosing surface area and have more leakage with the holes.

[DrBrown]

Yes I know...Ive read that 100 times. But if that is so true why do some people use plates that are covered in holes, almost like a screen? Not trying to argue but my local stores only carried this kind. The whole cell will be wrapped so that will help some with the current leaking.

[fisher]

You essentially have a +NNNNN- cell there. Your 12 plates looks electrically like 7 plates, you have 5 neutrals since the wide gaps have the plates on each side of them electrically tied together.

The wide gaps will help with leakage problems as less leakage current will travel the increased distance. (More leakage current will travel if plates are close together. Leakage current is current that bypasses the plates and goes around them through the electrolyte.)

The cell should work well, you just are essentially wasting space and several plates by having them tied together. But there is and advantage in that, the increased space decreases leakage. So try it out. Looks a lot like a smacks. Smacks include that wide gap.

One idea, Cut the sides out of a anti-freeze jug, drill two holes in the middle of a side, so that the nylon bolts can fit through the holes, but drill the holes big enough that the jam nuts will fit inside them also. Place the plastic pieces in the middle of the wide gaps. You MUST not insulate the widely spaced metal plates with them, but have the holes big enough that the nuts go through so that the widely spaced plates are still tied together electically. These will block leakage current. They must be big enough to pretty well extend to the sides of your container (that will contain the cell).

And yes, the holes in the plates are no bueno. It will work, but would be better with blank plates (no holes).

[fisher]

well, you posted while I was writing. Wrapping the cell will work too. But the plastic plates would cut down on leakage through your holes.

Regarding cells made out of preforated metal, seems the edges generate more bubbles than the centers of the plates. So leave the holes. Do my plastic idea but cut the pieces smaller just to block the inner holes. May work great.

Take it apart and try different configurations. Less plates will give more bubbles but more heat and current. Find the balance and configuration that works for you.

[DrBrown]

Take it apart and try different configurations. Less plates will give more bubbles but more heat and current. Find the balance and configuration that works for you.

This is my first cell and the plan is to produce hardly any HHO starting out. Many engines have responded well with very little actual production. Then I can slowly try increasing amps by less spacing or more electrolyte. My goal is to learn to crawl first! :)

Thanks for the ideas, I will take them into consideration when I start altering the setup.

[sumdude]

seems like a water heater design to me. You would need to seal the edges of the plates are the **FREE** edges will cause runnaway current that will get the water HOT. :)

[DrBrown]

If the cell is only getting 2-3v max and there is only a little electrolyte why would it heat up the water if the cell is wrapped? Most smacks or waterforgas style setups run at only 120-180*F on a hot day with an open bath and more amps so this should be fine.

[fisher]

With your design, and 12VDC, it will get somewhat hot, but not terribly hot. Depends on its location under the hood, (near hot exhaust or near incoming airstream). Depends on what it is housed in...

Try it. Make alterations as needed. Won't know till you try.

[DrBrown]

Well I already scrapped that setup hehe. It wouldn't fit in a 4" PVC schedule 40 tube. I will post pics tonight when I get home but now I have eliminated the gaps and all the plates (except the center anode) are 1/16" apart. It's setup as:
-NNNNN + NNNNN-

[vscgraphics]

i am using 4" pvc. I am using switch plates(no holes) +nnnnn- i have them held together with 2 plastic bolts and spaced with plastic washers. Spacing is about 1/8th.

The 4" tube is 12" long. Solid end cap on the bottom and a black plactic(plyable) blowoff cap on the top. With the 12" pipe and the plates sitting on near the bottom there is plenty of water(electrolyte) in there that it seems like it takes a while to get hot. I have run 100 mile trips and it doesnt seem to be too hot. I am running at 18.5 amps when the cell is warm. 8-9amps on startup.

I am running drain cleaner from lowes ($3.96)
I have not done any LPM tests yet but it does fill up a latex glove pretty good (for some fireworks :) ) I plan on getting a LMP guage

Next time I take the unit out I will post some pics.

I also want to experiment with this setup:

In the same 4" pvc

l -nnnnn+ l
l +nnnnn- l <pvc pipe. plates on the bottom vertical.
Right now I have 1 row of 7 plates
Thinking about a secon row on top of the 1st row with +- reversed

[DrBrown]

I have done enough research to know you need to isolate each cell from eachother. If both cells use the same bath it will bake the water and boil. The current leaking would be pretty bad with two cells right over eachother.

[vscgraphics]

ok so i will skip that idea!! thxs

[daddymikey1975]

I have done enough research to know you need to isolate each cell from eachother. If both cells use the same bath it will bake the water and boil. The current leaking would be pretty bad with two cells right over eachother.


It could be done if each cell was wrapped separately from each other.. both directions and slice holes in top and bottom of each brick... i.e. remove just a strip off the top and a strip off the bottom of each cell... wonder how well that would work....... (MAN i wish i had enough stuff to try this... i think it would work well)

[DrBrown]

That would work!

Here is the picture that I also just edited on the first post, it at least fits in my 4" container now:
http://www.designbydan.com/pt/CELL2.jpg
http://www.designbydan.com/pt/CELL3.jpg

[daddymikey1975]

looks nice. :)

you may benefit a bit more if you double up on the center plate instead of the large gap between the center and the adjacent neutrals..

also from the pics its hard to tell what the gap is between plates. you would also greatly benefit from a 1/8" gap or less.

don't forget to wrap it.. it'll help keep it efficient :)

EDIT: also DON'T FORGET TO WRAP THAT BOTTOM STRAP !! and wrap the top ones as well.. you'll have all kinds of stray current if you don't.. your straps will be producing and not your cell... or you'll have current jumping through the electrolyte from the plates to the straps.. not good for max. production.

just my .02

mike

[DrBrown]

I may double up on the center plate but first Im going to try it as is. I will definitely be wrapping the straps, though I havent found something local that will work for that yet.

The plates are 1/8" or less apart right now except for the center plate. I used two 1/16" nylon washers in between all of them and a 7/32" nut in between the center plates. I had to try several configs just to get the stupid cell to fit in the container. This is about as big as I can go and I dont trust using just 1/16" spacers because its really close to shorting in a few places. If anyone has suggestions on what to use for wrapping/coating the straps give a yell!

[fisher]

strap wrap - heat shrink is best. or electical tape, or dip them in liquid tape.

[DrBrown]

I ended up buying the $2.60 roll of rubber splicing tape from Lowes. That stuff is really nice! Add in some zip ties and its go time. :) Here's the latest:

http://www.designbydan.com/pt/cell4.jpg
http://www.designbydan.com/pt/cell5.jpg

[Super Fuel FX]

Very interesting. I look forward to your test results!

[vscgraphics]

i did a similar thing with shrink wrap. the water flows right through the plates circulating

[daddymikey1975]

I agree, it looks great. I'm curious about your results also.

mike