Less than impressed....

[EdCaffreyMS]

With this outfit. http://www.fireinthewater.com/index_files/Page1339.htm

I found a link to this site on the forums, have emailed him 3 times in the past two weeks, with no responses, and now you should take a look at the website...... Very reasonably priced plates for a dry cell, but check out the S&H! A 6x6 dry cell plate is priced at $7.90, but the S&H is $30!!?? :eek:AND...gaskets for the plates are $2.60, with S&H of $20! Unless this is a misprint on the website, this guy IS SMOKING CRACK!

[Riddler250]

HaHa. Hes off his rocker

[Roland Jacques]

I would imagine that $30 shipping is for as many plates & or gaskets as you want. Just guessing

[EdCaffreyMS]

I had that though too....but the guy doesn't answer emails....all you get is an automated response saying "We will get back to you soon". Wonder what he considers "soon"........ does that mean never?

[Griz64]

Let me relate my experience with this guy. First of all his name is Sid Young of the infamous "Sid Cell". I sent him an email asking how soon he could ship out a unit and his response was early next week. I told him to go ahead and made my payment thru paypal. So I waited a week and no product so I emailed him..no response. Ok so I waited another week and still no product and no response. Third week and I finally get a response from him saying he has been real busy trying to fill orders-blah blah blah. So after 4 weeks I finally get my cell but absolutely no instructions or anything and seeing that the holes for the barbs are tapered there is a certain way they need to assembled. Now I will say that the product is nice but that is the only nice thing I will say. My recommendation is that you stay way the hell away from this guy. I will never do business with him again...I am sure he gets lots of emails a day but at the same time..if you dont have time to answer my emails then I dont have time to do business with you. A little courtesy goes a hell of a long way.

[H2OPWR]

I live in Alaska where everything is higher priced because of shipping and I can have those plates made out of 316L Stainless includind all holes for 1/3rd of what he is charging. The gaskets can be made for less than 50 cents each and stamped to perfection. NO MSHIPPING.

[EdCaffreyMS]

Well, you folks have confirmed it for me.....no dealing with that ding-dong.

I run my own business, and if I treated my customers like that, I would quickly not have a business. I like the design of the plates, but will not waste my time with someone like that.

[JonDoh]

Reading several different forums & threads.... there's several websites with the same issues like magdrive. Lousy CS!! Like ZERO CS.

Maybe there should be a BLACK LIST of hho companies :confused:

[alpha-dog]

I bought one of these cells and have had no problem with sid at all. I get quick response via email from him also. I don't know about buying indivivual plates.
Russ

[Bill Foote]

That $30.00 S+H does apply to as many as you want, I filled out an order for 25 gaskets and the S+H didn't change. I'd like to buy gaskets and have a water jet company locally make some plates. I want the lower holes on the left, that way I could alternate every other cell so elyte has to go back and forth, eliminating the stray electrical flow thru a straight path of holes. The electrical spade lugs would be opposite, but that's no biggy.
Bill

[Bill Foote]

I would also like to welcome Ed Caffrey to this forum, an excellent knifemaker! Your stuff is great, Ed. Nice to see you on another forum.

[SteveRich]

All,
I have had only good outcomes from my dealings with Sid (Fire in the Water). The dry cell plates/gaskets he offers are in my opinion the best available at a reasonable price.
From what I understand the his business is growing faster than he expected and on top of that rapid growth, he was ill for a period of time and I’m sure that impacted his response time.(possibly yours Ed)

The high S&H was in response to multiple requests to go back to selling individual plates and gaskets and that the prices would cover as many plates as you may order. Although the shipping for my entire 4 cell brick was $9.80.

I am a very happy customer and I am looking forward to an MAP/EFIE device he will offer soon that interfaces directly to the ECU via an OBD II interface. No more intercepting the sensor wires.

Happy Fire in the Water customer, Steve

[hg2]

Reading several different forums & threads.... there's several websites with the same issues like magdrive. Lousy CS!! Like ZERO CS.

Maybe there should be a BLACK LIST of hho companies :confused:

Oh man we'd have to create a new sub-forum for that list.It would be easier to list the good ones. LOL

[hg2]

All,
I have had only good outcomes from my dealings with Sid (Fire in the Water). The dry cell plates/gaskets he offers are in my opinion the best available at a reasonable price.
From what I understand the his business is growing faster than he expected and on top of that rapid growth, he was ill for a period of time and I’m sure that impacted his response time.(possibly yours Ed)

The high S&H was in response to multiple requests to go back to selling individual plates and gaskets and that the prices would cover as many plates as you may order. Although the shipping for my entire 4 cell brick was $9.80.

I am a very happy customer and I am looking forward to an MAP/EFIE device he will offer soon that interfaces directly to the ECU via an OBD II interface. No more intercepting the sensor wires.

Happy Fire in the Water customer, Steve


Do you have any data or results to post with this cell?

[hg2]

After checking out Sids site I'm wondering if he has much hho experience.The plates shown have too large a hole for electrolyte equalization and he has them cut inline.This goes against the plans for Tero Ranta cell construction.Holes this large and being in line with lead to heavy current leakage between cells,thus making the cell less efficient.Also saw this on the site that threw red flags up.

Sids own quote:

Brown’s gas Prototype. I had never heard of Tero Ranta prior to July 11, 2008 cited here:

http://waterfuel.t35.com/own_electrolyser.html
This is where I got the inspiration



This guy just heard about the Tero Ranta design only three months ago and done all his testing,started production and marketing.These plans have been around for quite some time now,I found them almost a year and a half ago.Makes me wonder how long he's been at it.

[Stevo]

After checking out Sids site I'm wondering if he has much hho experience.The plates shown have too large a hole for electrolyte equalization and he has them cut inline.This goes against the plans for Tero Ranta cell construction.Holes this large and being in line with lead to heavy current leakage between cells,thus making the cell less efficient.Also saw this on the site that threw red flags up.

Sids own quote:

Brown’s gas Prototype. I had never heard of Tero Ranta prior to July 11, 2008 cited here:

http://waterfuel.t35.com/own_electrolyser.html
This is where I got the inspiration



This guy just heard about the Tero Ranta design only three months ago and done all his testing,started production and marketing.These plans have been around for quite some time now,I found them almost a year and a half ago.Makes me wonder how long he's been at it.

It's also rather interesting how (much more than the size of the holes) the size of the gaskets are way too big. They are too thick and I calculate a considerable waste in surface area. Makes more sense to ensure precision in assembly and instead bolting outside the plates using about half the thickness for gaskets. Yes, you will end up with a slightly larger cell, but will have wasted less 316L (more active surface area) and neoprene considering HHO cells are for use under vacuum. I mean you will be using a decent amount of torque and 1/2 UHMW isn't *that* expensive when it comes down to it. Looks like his work is precise from the images shown though.

[hg2]

It's also rather interesting how (much more than the size of the holes) the size of the gaskets are way too big. They are too thick and I calculate a considerable waste in surface area. Makes more sense to ensure precision in assembly and instead bolting outside the plates using about half the thickness for gaskets. Yes, you will end up with a slightly larger cell, but will have wasted less 316L (more active surface area) and neoprene considering HHO cells are for use under vacuum. I mean you will be using a decent amount of torque and 1/2 UHMW isn't *that* expensive when it comes down to it. Looks like his work is precise from the images shown though.

I agree on the wasted plate area,it seems he had to design them that way to accomadate the holes used to clamp it together.He probably changed the original Tero plans trying to clamp all those plates especially the one that uses 37 of them.Looks like a leaky mess either way you do it.Don't care much for the nylon bolts used either,stainless steel doesn't stretch.

[EdCaffreyMS]

Those comments bring up a question that I've had about the dry cells.... the placement of the plate through holes. What is the preferred arrangement? It would make sense in my head if the holes where offset on every other plate....rather than being inline all the way through a cell. Is my logic correct? Or am I full of beans?

[hg2]

Those comments bring up a question that I've had about the dry cells.... the placement of the plate through holes. What is the preferred arrangement? It would make sense in my head if the holes where offset on every other plate....rather than being inline all the way through a cell. Is my logic correct? Or am I full of beans?

Nope no beans about it,you are correct they should be offset and the plans for the tero dry cell say to use 3mm(1/8") holes offset.I tried using 1/16" holes but it doesn't take much to clog that small of a hole,so I went with the 1/8" and it seems to work ok.

Sid probably makes his inline due to his plate design,it would be too confusing to deal with left and right plates constructing a cell.Especially selling them to a DIYER that hasn't built a cell.

[Roland Jacques]

Those comments bring up a question that I've had about the dry cells.... the placement of the plate through holes. What is the preferred arrangement? It would make sense in my head if the holes where offset on every other plate....rather than being inline all the way through a cell. Is my logic correct? Or am I full of beans?

Another opinion

I think off set holes are better than in line on a square cell, like the Sid cell.

But, I think it could be debated weather "off set holes" (for the gas) with a square gasket is as good as an inline when a house shaped gasket is being used.

I believe the house shape gaskets are channeling/maintaining the gases in a smaller confined portion of the cell may be better. Even though the holes are in line. The advantage of keeping the gas away from more of the production surfaces seems to more than compensate for the small amount of possible leakage. I’m just basing that on reported MMW’s #s I’ve seen. ( Maybe it is because leakage does not occur where gas is present, and if that area is full of 90% gases then leakage would be greatly reduced. just a hunch)

The down side to "off set holes" in a square gasket is the water level may only cover 85% of the available plate surface. With the house shape gasket the water may cover 95% of the available plate’s surface.

I guess bottom line which one has better MMW and lower heat.

[Roland Jacques]

Nope no beans about it,you are correct they should be offset and the plans for the tero dry cell say to use 3mm(1/8") holes offset.I tried using 1/16" holes but it doesn't take much to clog that small of a hole,so I went with the 1/8" and it seems to work ok.



Are you using only One 1/8" hole between each cell for your gas to escape?
How much gas are you producing?

It seems like 2 LPM coming out of a 1/8" hole would create a lot of back pressure. The back pressure would push the water level down in the cells.

[hg2]

[QUOTE=hg2;17377]Nope no beans about it,you are correct they should be offset and the plans for the tero dry cell say to use 3mm(1/8") holes offset.I tried using 1/16" holes but it doesn't take much to clog that small of a hole,so I went with the 1/8" and it seems to work ok.

QUOTE]

Are you using only One 1/8" hole between each cell for your gas to escape?
How much gas are you producing?

It seems like 2 LPM coming out of a 1/8" hole would create a lot of back pressure. The back pressure would push the water level down in the cells.



No,The electrolyte equalization holes are 1/8" the outlet holes are 1/2".

[Roland Jacques]

Thanks, that make sense

[hg2]

Another opinion

I think off set holes are better than in line on a square cell, like the Sid cell.

But, I think it could be debated weather "off set holes" (for the gas) with a square gasket is as good as an inline when a house shaped gasket is being used.

I believe the house shape gaskets are channeling/maintaining the gases in a smaller confined portion of the cell may be better. Even though the holes are in line. The advantage of keeping the gas away from more of the production surfaces seems to more than compensate for the small amount of possible leakage. I’m just basing that on reported MMW’s #s I’ve seen. ( Maybe it is because leakage does not occur where gas is present, and if that area is full of 90% gases then leakage would be greatly reduced. just a hunch)

The down side to "off set holes" in a square gasket is the water level may only cover 85% of the available plate surface. With the house shape gasket the water may cover 95% of the available plate’s surface.

I guess bottom line which one has better MMW and lower heat.




But with the house shape gaskets aren't you losing plate area to start with?Look at what you cover up filling in the corners.The only wasted plate area on my cell is the strip that runs away from the outlet hole towards the outside of the plate which is very little.Also my outlet holes are positioned almost 3/8" into the spacer gaskets to further minimize plate area loss.

[Realtyroy]

Reading several different forums & threads.... there's several websites with the same issues like magdrive. Lousy CS!! Like ZERO CS.

Maybe there should be a BLACK LIST of hho companies :confused:

Speaking of a black list, I'm working on a forum for just this purpose! Now its brand new and not a lot of response yet but I hope it will grow to something that people can use for research to see who makes a good product and who does not.

If you have experience either good or bad or have any suggestions on how the site should be setup than please give me your idea's! I'm trying to get the people selling boosters to send me a system to test independently and post the results to the board. Good or bad for everyone to see.
Check it out.
http://pmgen.com/hhoresearch/index.php?sid=fc6508149e2653aed53a6fee11f43fbd


Thanks very much!
Roy

[EdCaffreyMS]

I think that "house shaped" idea is brilliant! See...something so simple, and I overlooked it! I should have realized it when I saw a diamond shaped dry cell on Ebay and was thinking "Why in the world did he shape it like that?" It seems you could achieve a very similar effect if a square plate was oriented in a diamond shape, with the input/output holes in the top and bottom corners?

You folks are great! We are so much better collectively!

Now your sending me off in a whole new direction!

[hg2]

Speaking of a black list, I'm working on a forum for just this purpose! Now its brand new and not a lot of response yet but I hope it will grow to something that people can use for research to see who makes a good product and who does not.

If you have experience either good or bad or have any suggestions on how the site should be setup than please give me your idea's! I'm trying to get the people selling boosters to send me a system to test independently and post the results to the board. Good or bad for everyone to see.
Check it out.
http://pmgen.com/hhoresearch/index.php?sid=fc6508149e2653aed53a6fee11f43fbd


Thanks very much!
Roy

I think that's the best idea regarding companys that sell hho systems to have them certified to how well they perform.This would weed out the fly by nights by having an unbiased organization to test each design they sell so people would know exactly what they're buying.Just like electrical appiances that have to be UL approved.Of course they would be required to pay for the testing to be able to display their certification that their systems have in fact been throughly tested.


You have my yes vote on it!!!!!!!!!!

[Roland Jacques]

1. But with the house shape gaskets aren't you losing plate area to start with?Look at what you cover up filling in the corners.

2. The only wasted plate area on my cell is the strip that runs away from the outlet hole towards the outside of the plate which is very little.Also my outlet holes are positioned almost 3/8" into the spacer gaskets to further minimize plate area loss.

1. Yes, Some do waste SS with their design. I think that more a matter of how you cut your plates. I’m talking more about the charged plate area and the effects on MMWs.n (not that I completely understand which is better)

2. Im not sure I completely understand what you have with your cell. If I understand right, you may have overcome some Dry cell short falls. Their is definitely room for improvement. I’m testing one right now, hoping for 9 plus MMW.

[hg2]

1. Yes, Some do waste SS with their design. I think that more a matter of how you cut your plates. I’m talking more about the charged plate area and the effects on MMWs.n (not that I completely understand which is better)

2. Im not sure I completely understand what you have with your cell. If I understand right, you may have overcome some Dry cell short falls. Their is definitely room for improvement. I’m testing one right now, hoping for 9 plus MMW.

There 's really no shortage of plate area on my cell,it's a 9x9 plate - 6 cell tero,darn thing weighs almost 20 lbs.I wished I'd been more experienced last year when I built it because 2 stock teros would've been more efficient.

[Roland Jacques]

I live in Alaska where everything is higher priced because of shipping and I can have those plates made out of 316L Stainless includind all holes for 1/3rd of what he is charging. The gaskets can be made for less than 50 cents each and stamped to perfection. NO MSHIPPING.


WOW it cost me about about $7.00 a plate for 6"x6" 316 L 24 ga laser cut, and thats if i buy a whole sheet worth, that's$600. I only need 32 plates right for now.

It would be cheaper for me to buy plates form you and have them over-nighted. if you Know a companay that can make 316 L plates 24 ga for as cheep as you say, can you let me know the name and Phone number?

[Stevo]

This design seems to have applied best use of gaskets/plate surface area.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Element-1-Fuel-Systems-Dry-Cell-HHO-Fuel-Cell-System_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a543Q7c66Q3 a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q 2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem130264090805QQitemZ1302640908 05#ebayphotohosting