Too much HHO?

[NoMoGas]

I just measured my output of my cell that I installed on my 97 Civic. It pushed 750 ml in 15 seconds, 3 Lpm. This is at about 25 amps. I can cut it back if I need to, but didn't want to unless I needed to. I know I don't need that much for my 1.6 liter engine, but where is the point that too much is going in and will hurt mileage? I am getting no gains right now. I am working with adjusting my EFIE, but wanted to make sure the output is ok.

[Painless]

Two things:

1) At 3 LPM on a 1.6 you are definitely in the region where HHO has moved on from being an enhancing additive to being a second fuel. This is definitely why you're seeing no gains. The ECU is over riching in its confusion. O2 EFIE is definitely your next step on the road to MPG improvement.

2) You're making 3 LPM at 25 amps!!! Please post your design along with other pertinent information such as plate layout, electrolyte type and concentration, volts and electrolyte temp at this production level. Its possible that a large amount is steam.

[mytoyotasucks]

2) You're making 3 LPM at 25 amps!!! Please post your design along with other pertinent information such as plate layout, electrolyte type and concentration, volts and electrolyte temp at this production level. Its possible that a large amount is steam.

ya that would be awsome to know

[NoMoGas]

It is actually one I bought off ebay. It was not cheap. Here is the item # on ebay 140275878236. I was going to build one like this but was having trouble getting material and getting cut, drilled, etc so decided to just buy one. I will probably put this cell on my boat eventually. It has a 5.7 L with 4 bbl carb that really sucks gas. I guess I need to cut back on the e-lyte to get down quite a bit. I have heard you need about 1 lpm on 4 cyl, and 2 lpm on 8 cyl, so I will try to shoot for that. Thanks for the reply.

[Painless]

I think you should look a little closer at what your generator is producing. Try letting the hose run into a glass jar for a while and see if any condensation collects.

I would start at the 1 LPM mark for your 1.6, but make sure you are using a bubbler. If you're producing steam then traces of KOH or NaOH will be in your HHO which will eat any aluminum in your engine.

[NoMoGas]

It is a dry cell, so I have a bubbler/resevoir. I also have an additional dryer. I will check to see if I am making steam, but I think the dryer would show alot of condensation if this were the case. I am a little concerned about the temp, how do you check internal temp on a dry cell?

[Painless]

I use a lazer thermometer and aim it at the top of the cell. Either way, take the reading from the top of the plates pack as heat rises.

[NoMoGas]

I don't have a way to check the cell temp, but it is not hot to the touch on top of the plates. I also emptied the resevoir and re-filled with only distilled water. The only NaOH that should have been remaining would have been in the cell and hoses going to and from the cell. After refilling, I would have though the amps would go way down. It only dropped from 25 to about 20 amps. I need to re-check the output, I have not had time to do that. I did notice a little water in the dryer. I assume this is from the cell being too hot, but it never feels hot. I guess I will empty the resevoir, cell, and all hoses and start over shooting for closer to 1 LPM. Any guesses why the amps didn't drop much after removing most of the electrolyte? My dry cell is +NNNNNN-NNNNNN+NNNNNN- for 3 cells. Would I be better off disconnecting the last - and making it a 2 cell to lower my LPM or use all and keep lowering the e-lyte?

[Stevo]

My dry cell is +NNNNNN-NNNNNN+NNNNNN- for 3 cells. Would I be better off disconnecting the last - and making it a 2 cell to lower my LPM or use all and keep lowering the e-lyte?

That cell on ebay looks pretty solid, but if it's a 16 plate cell then your config would be:

+nnnn-nnnn+nnnn-

Otherwize, the 21 plate cell would be:

+nnnn-nnnn+nnnn-nnnn+

There's no way +NNNNNN-NNNNNN+NNNNNN- would make 3 lpm @ ~25amps. Your voltage between plates @ 14v would be ~2.0v and that's not enough to be that extremely efficient.

[NoMoGas]

Yeah, I accidently put too many neutrals. It is the 16 plate design. I am still having trouble getting gains. I am working with the EFIE, but I don't know if I still have too much HHO (probably not), need to keep working with the EFIE, or maybe need a new O2 sensor. Does anyone know how to tell if you need a new sensor. It is not tripping codes, could it still be bad? I have 144K miles, but only bought few months ago so not sure if it is original.

[mytoyotasucks]

Yeah, I accidently put too many neutrals. It is the 16 plate design. I am still having trouble getting gains. I am working with the EFIE, but I don't know if I still have too much HHO (probably not), need to keep working with the EFIE, or maybe need a new O2 sensor. Does anyone know how to tell if you need a new sensor. It is not tripping codes, could it still be bad? I have 144K miles, but only bought few months ago so not sure if it is original.


if u installed an EFIE , use the same lead to check source voltage.

[Roland Jacques]

You dont have to much HHO. i would not even worry about 20 amp draw at all. And i also would not change the the plate arrangement ether.

[Roland Jacques]

I just measured my output of my cell that I installed on my 97 Civic. It pushed 750 ml in 15 seconds, 3 Lpm. This is at about 25 amps. I can cut it back if I need to, but didn't want to unless I needed to. I know I don't need that much for my 1.6 liter engine, but where is the point that too much is going in and will hurt mileage? I am getting no gains right now. I am working with adjusting my EFIE, but wanted to make sure the output is ok.

3000ml at 325 watts (assuming your at 13 volts) per min is awesome = 9.23 MMW :eek: you should post the MMW with your feedback for that guys Electroliyzer!

Does it put out that much HHo when it is cold? I would like o no how hot that cell runs.

[NoMoGas]

Thanks for the info. I have a few questions. Painless said 3 LPM is too much and ecu is over richening in its confusion. Roland says that is not too much HHO. Roland, are you saying 3 LPM is not too much, or do you doubt I am getting 3 LPM? Since I don't know the temp, I guess it could have been steam, just not sure.
Where can I get a lazer thermometer, and how much are they?
I will try to get cell temp, and volts going to cell. I have a scanguage that tells volts, but I assume that is total volts, not the amount going to cell.
When I originally posted and checked the output at 3 LPM, the cell had been running about 5 min.
I know you can put anything on an ebay ad, but here are the numbers that were with the ad.
3 LMP
13.3 Volts
27 amps
8.35 MMW

Since I don't know how to calculate MMW, I am not sure what mine is really doing. Could someone tell me how to calculate that?

[Stevo]

It is not tripping codes, could it still be bad? I have 144K miles, but only bought few months ago so not sure if it is original.

You should be able to look at the connector and see if it has "Denso" or "NGK"/"NTK" stamped on it. This *might* be a good indicator of whether of not your 02 sensor is original. Majority of people don't change those out at 80-100K like they should. Guess they think Honda makes everything to last 300K, but that's just not the case. BTW, is your civic a hatch? And what model? DX, LX, EX, Si?

[Roland Jacques]

Thanks for the info. I have a few questions. Painless said 3 LPM is too much and

ecu is over richening in its confusion.

I believe this to be ture. but you need to trick the ECU into accepting 3LPM as normal. you'ld have to do that with 1 lpm or 3 lpm. But i have read that some folks have got better results with less HHO. Im wondering if that is a ignition timing thing, or a high watt demand :confused:

Roland says that is not too much HHO. Roland, are you saying 3 LPM is not too much, or do you doubt I am getting 3 LPM? Since I don't know the temp, I guess it could have been steam, just not sure.

I believe you are geting 3LPM, it is probaly not too hot in 5 minutes.
Where can I get a lazer thermometer, and how much are they?

Harbor frieght.

I will try to get cell temp, and volts going to cell. I have a scanguage that tells volts, but I assume that is total volts, not the amount going to cell.
When I originally posted and checked the output at 3 LPM, the cell had been running about 5 min.
I know you can put anything on an ebay ad, but here are the numbers that were with the ad.
3 LMP
13.3 Volts
27 amps
8.35 MMW

Since I don't know how to calculate MMW, I am not sure what mine is really doing. Could someone tell me how to calculate that?
MMW= Millileter per Minute per Watts

watts = volts x amps

you got 3 LPM = 3000 ml PM

So if your watts is 325 divide that by your ml
3000 / 325 = 9.23MMW

[Painless]

I think I should clarify my response:

3 LPM is too much in that it is likely causing over riching, but this means that you should work with the o2 signal to conpensate, not reduce your output of HHO.

By the way, I got my laser thermometer from Lowes in the electrical dept, right next to the multimeters.

With that 9+ MMW I would certainly be wary that steam is the culprit of that high output.

[Roland Jacques]

Nomogas, How thick are the gaskets on that Electrolyzer?

[resago]

you have something very similar to what I have, but you have an extra 4n set. I am getting 1.2-1.5@25amps, you are probably getting 1.8-2lpm

[mytoyotasucks]

Where can I get a lazer thermometer, and how much are they?

try ur local hobby shop - they use them for checking tems on nitro motors and usually sell for $30 or less.

[NoMoGas]

How do you know if water displaced from jar to jar (checking HHO output) is HHO or steam? Does the steam create additional force to push out water? Also, I will check cell temp, what is the desired temp I should be looking for? I am changing EFIE, but I was told to make changes slowly, so I am going up 25 mv every couple of days to give the ecu time to calibrate itself.

[mytoyotasucks]

How do you know if water displaced from jar to jar (checking HHO output) is HHO or steam? Does the steam create additional force to push out water? Also, I will check cell temp, what is the desired temp I should be looking for? I am changing EFIE, but I was told to make changes slowly, so I am going up 25 mv every couple of days to give the ecu time to calibrate itself.

steam doesnt usually start until a very high temp - 200 F or more.
mind u that if ur plates are hotter that the mix that it can porduce steam also.

but yes steam also help push water.

and yes adjusting the EFIE slowy is great. - most peops cant wait and that the puter thoughs codes.

and desired temp is under 150 F - hard to reach

[H2OPWR]

How do you know if water displaced from jar to jar (checking HHO output) is HHO or steam? Does the steam create additional force to push out water? Also, I will check cell temp, what is the desired temp I should be looking for? I am changing EFIE, but I was told to make changes slowly, so I am going up 25 mv every couple of days to give the ecu time to calibrate itself.

Anything generated by your cell will take up space and displace the water. HHO is colorless and can not visually be seen. If you can see anything in the gas you are producing it will not be pure HHO and give you false readings. I am not sure at what temp you will make enough steam to take up space and distort readings. I do know that 104 degrees when I take the cover off my hot tub it is visually steaming and a hot bath at 105 degrees does visually make steam. I am just not sure if steam at those temps would make enough volume to distort HHO volume tests.

[Roland Jacques]

This is a great question. i often wonder the same thing. I to see steam created far below 212 degrees. It would be good to run some tests and find out.

I also wonder if temperture differential effects steam production. It seems that the lower the outside temp the lower temp that steam is created:confused:

[NoMoGas]

This is a dry cell, so I have a resevoir/bubbler, then the gas goes out to a dryer, then to the air intake. When I am testing my output, I am taking the hose loose from my air intake hose and putting that to my test jar. Since the dryer is collecting water, i would think most of the steam would be staying in there. Maybe I am wrong.

[mytoyotasucks]

ok waterfuelforall says "measured with a water temperature not exceeding 75 degrees Celsius" for efficiency

Thats 167 F

i can usually keep mine under 150 - depending on amps.

here's some of my results - http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1812

[Roland Jacques]

Nomogas, How thick are the gaskets on that Electrolyzer?
bumpiby bump

[NoMoGas]

Sorry, since I bought the cell and did not build it, I am not sure of the gasket size. I would guess 1/16".

[NoMoGas]

Since I have backed off the electrolyte, I wanted to re check output. It is now at 1.75 Lpm, 20 amps. The cell was 115 degrees. I am sure this is all HHO and not steam since the cell temp is so low. I am curious if I was getting that kind of production (3 lpm) in the first place. Now that I can check cell temp I am tempted to bump the e-lyte back up and see what this cell can do. Since I don't need that kind of output, I probably won't. I am sure most of you know this, but I was told a way to check if you are getting only HHO, or steam mixed in. Fill a balloon, and if it is only HHO, it will float away, and if has steam, it will not float. I didn't have any balloons to check, but it makes sense.

[Realtyroy]

Hello,
Realtyroy-HHO Scambuster here!

I looked this cell over on eBay and it seems like he has the real deal. His feedback is good and to me the product looks well built.

I sent him an email to see if he would send me a system for independent testing and posting to the board.

If he does I will have his system for 30 days and I will post everything I find about this system and the production you can expect.
I will post to most of the boards but the main forum for this will be;http://pmgen.com/hhoresearch/index.php?sid=fc6508149e2653aed53a6fee11f43fbd

Realtyroy-Scambuster!

[livehho]

regarding that..

I have abandoned the idea of a second bubbler because you have be constantly watching for the water level in it because it gets filled up because of the steam or foam coming from the cell and the primary bubbler.

[livehho]

I think you should look a little closer at what your generator is producing. Try letting the hose run into a glass jar for a while and see if any condensation collects.

I would start at the 1 LPM mark for your 1.6, but make sure you are using a bubbler. If you're producing steam then traces of KOH or NaOH will be in your HHO which will eat any aluminum in your engine.
regarding that..

I have abandoned the idea of a second bubbler because you have be constantly watching for the water level in it because it gets filled up because of the steam or foam coming from the cell and the primary bubbler.