Can you see hydroxy gas?

[overtaker]

When doing tests in an open container can you see any hydroxy gas or is it just water vapor you see? How much water vapor will a bubbler remove?

[gizzy]

When doing tests in an open container can you see any hydroxy gas or is it just water vapor you see? How much water vapor will a bubbler remove?

Sir, what I know is water vapor is normally steam. If you have steam or hot water vapor is around 150 -160 degrees. Otherwise hho fumes is being produced as a gas that isn't seen outside in the environment. If in doubt take your generator inside and bench test it. This is when you can actually see a vapor trail of gas. Remember it is odorless and tasteless. 8 times more powerful than gasoline. Also as far as gases going into and out of the bubbler into the intake. There is no difference of change of hho.

[overtaker]

Thanks Gizzy and please don't call me sir. :) Well my water temp is 110deg. and the water is about 1" above the plates yet I still have what I assumed was a water vapor coming up ( outside in the driveway ). Are you saying this is gas or water vapor?

[Painless]

You will still get some water vapour, even under boiling point. A kettle emits some steam even before the water boils.

If you're using a strong base for your catalyst like NaOH or KOh, the water vapour will probably contain these elements which will eat aluminum.

A bubbler with distilled white vinegar will neutralise this.

[Roland Jacques]

Has this idea that a bubbler can remove vapor been tested. I find this hard to believe. The surface area of a large bubble traveling through a few inches of water (or vinegar) is a very minuscule fraction of the total volume of gases. The interface of the gases and the water would be minimal in such a small amount of time. I dont believe a bubbler will remove enough steam vapor that you could even tell the differance. Ive seen lot of steam come out of bubblers.

It would be cool to test what percent of the electrolyte is in this vapor.

Maybe a test like this would be helpful. Run HHO/vapor to a bubble with pure deionized water, (checked with Ohm meter) then run the gases to a condensation tube after that discharges into a collection cup. Then we could measure the resistance of the straight solution in the electrolyzer, and compare it to the bubbler water, and lastly compared to the condensation. We could probably get some idea of quiet a few things this way.

[Painless]

I use my own design of 'cleansing bubbler', basically, it's a foot long piece of 3" PVC pipe filled with distilled white vinegar, the HHO enters through a barb in the top and travels down tubing that has been coiled tightly all the way down to the bottom of the chamber, this acts as a condenser for the water vapour. There is a fine mesh in the bottom of the tube that splits the HHO up into lots of small bubbles.

My bubbler is mounted behind my trucks grill where it gets a good strong airflow to keep the contents cool.

[Roland Jacques]

I use my own design of 'cleansing bubbler', basically, it's a foot long piece of 3" PVC pipe filled with distilled white vinegar, the HHO enters through a barb in the top and travels down tubing that has been coiled tightly all the way down to the bottom of the chamber, this acts as a condenser for the water vapour. There is a fine mesh in the bottom of the tube that splits the HHO up into lots of small bubbles.

My bubbler is mounted behind my trucks grill where it gets a good strong airflow to keep the contents cool.

Now your talking ;), Great idea. Thats even better than what i had in mind the coil before the bubbler with vinegar is perfect . Yours is far more than just a bubbler my friend, barvo. I used i might have to copy some of your design:D

What kind of tubing did you use and how long of a piece is it?

[Painless]

I just used the standard 1/4" tubing from Lowes, can't remember how long the whole run is, it basically coils down for approximately 10 inches in total.

Here's the original design from my thread:

http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=13956&postcount=165

[Smith03Jetta]

The vapor that you can see (Particularly at night) is H20 + electrolyte. If you allow the vapor to persist, you will eventually cause damage to your engine parts, particularly the Throttle body or Carburetor. I have proof. I have a .01 micron filter installed in my HHO line prior to my intake plenum. It is effectively removing all traces of vapor from my HHO gas. A good way to test for vapor is to place a small mirror against the gas as it vents out of the HHO device. The more condensate that falls on the mirror, the more problems you will have.

Anybody that tells you that the vapor is pure water vapor and will not damage your engine parts is full of ****. (Fill in with your own 4 letter word)

[solo33]

I think, smith03jetta, the word you're looking for is "GoosePoop!" But wait that's 9 letters! Shucks! :D

[Roland Jacques]

I have a .01 micron filter installed in my HHO line prior to my intake plenum. It is effectively removing all traces of vapor from my HHO gas.



Can you give some details on this .01 micron filter?
Did you make it or...?
Does it create a lot of back pressure?

[DrBrown]

Can you give some details on this .01 micron filter?
Did you make it or...?
Does it create a lot of back pressure?

Ditto! I've never even heard of such a thing. But I dont see how a single cell generator could even produce enough condensation to corrode anything internally in an engine. If it were a throttle body I could see that because they are aluminum in 90% of the engines and are the first thing the gas hits. Plus they have hot coolant flowing through the IAC valves most times so they could sweat a bit. Most cells produce 1-2Lpm which is like a wet fart compared to how much air the engine uses. It should take a long time to see any negative corrosion effects unless you are putting out a ton of HHO.

[HiTechRedNeck73]

I don't know if it's .01 micron or not, but here is what I was planning to try on my setup... when I get it done of course...

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/670665/fullsize/waterseperator.jpg
(please excuse watermark, not my original image...)

these are oil & water seperators for air tools... a simple device, but I figured it would trap the water vapor without any issues... I just don't know whether it would trap the electrolyte also... any ideas?

they have a replaceable filter with a see through housing... and a valve to drain out the water... don't know if you can see it cearly, but the valve is the same you would find in a bicycle tube... also replaceable...

most hardware or paint shop should have these... their primary use is on air operated paint sprayers...

just so you guys have a bearing on the micron thing... here are some comparisons... (micron is a size or measurement)

1 micron = 1,000,000th of a meter or approximately 0.00003937 inches
1 picometer (pm) = 1,000,000,000th of a meter

common air filters that you would find in a house range from 3-10 microns of filtration... so, considering that hydrogen is about 0.000048 microns... it gets pretty small...

another comparison is electronics... we put billions of transitors in a single processor chip for a computer... back when pentiums first came out, getting 0.25 microns (width of wires between transistors) was a pretty big deal... now days, we get 0.13 microns in a processor... that allows us to put more transistors in the same space...

[Smith03Jetta]

The following are links to my earlier posts on the subject...

This is where I describe the problem...
http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=13057&postcount=412

This is a link to a discussion about the filter I installed. It is an inline paint gun filter that is designed to remove water and oil vapor from compressed air lines so it does not contaminate automotive paint jobs.
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=61&page=43

Below is a link to a previous discussion that I started to address the corrosion problem in the throttle body.
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1426

Here are the photos of my damaged throttle body.
http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=13415&postcount=44

I did solve the problem with the filter so I suggest that everybody do the same. I would encourage a little experimentation with some other filters however...

Now considering that water vapor particles are rather small. Here's a copy of a previous post talking about the size of the particles. This leads me to think that those stone filters and other things will not work.... I even made a filter out of activated charcoal and it did not work at all...

Also, I have no backpressure issues yet...

Copy of my previous Post

*************************

This information on the size of water particles is from the following website:

http://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?cj6005

"Small-angle X-ray scattering investigation of water droplets in mist:

Y. F. Yano, K. Matsuura, T. Fukazu, F. Abe, A. Wakisaka, H. Kobara, K. Kaneko, A. Kumagai, Y. Katsuya, M. Okui and M. Tanaka
Abstract: Small-angle X-ray scattering measurements of water droplets in a mist were carried out using the BL15XU beamline at SPring-8. The diameter of the water droplets generated by ultrasonic atomization was found to be 50 nm and had no distribution in the range under 50 nm, as predicted. The study also showed how difficult it is to measure the small-angle scattering of low-density materials, such as liquid droplets in a mist."

I converted 50 nm into microns. The ultrasonic atomization of water produced no water droplets smaller than 50 nanometer = 0.05 micron.

Any filter that filters out particles this size should do the job completely. Armed with this information I started looking for a good filter.

I purchased a disposable paint gun air filter today at my local paint supply. These things are designed to remove water vapor and oil vapor from air lines while painting cars using compressed air paint guns. It filters down to .01 microns (10 nm). That should be extemely effective at filtering water vapor particles >= .05 microns (50 nm). It will filter up to 30 cubic/feet minute. That shouldn't be a problem.

I also theorize that water droplets that contain trace amounts of NaOH would be larger than 50 microns. If so then the filter should be 100% effective at removing the NaOH from the gas line.

[HiTechRedNeck73]

....I purchased a disposable paint gun air filter today at my local paint supply. These things are designed to remove water vapor and oil vapor from air lines while painting cars using compressed air paint guns. It filters down to .01 microns (10 nm). That should be extemely effective at filtering water vapor particles >= .05 microns (50 nm). It will filter up to 30 cubic/feet minute. That shouldn't be a problem.

I also theorize that water droplets that contain trace amounts of NaOH would be larger than 50 microns. If so then the filter should be 100% effective at removing the NaOH from the gas line.

so we are talking about the same thing... great... I was wondering if I was on the right track...

thanks

[Roland Jacques]

Smith03Jetta,

Please keep us posted as to how long that filter works. I would think that filter would get saturated relativly fast. I guess that depends on your electrolyzer...

I wonder if that kind of filter can be dryed out and reused?

[Smith03Jetta]

Considering the filter media is plastic, I don't expect it to get "Saturated" because plastic does not soak up water. The filters are rated for about 1 months use when hooked up to an air compressor. My HHO generator is not putting out anywhere near the volume of an air compressor so I expect it to last a lot longer if it can hold up to the heat of the engine compartment.

[Roland Jacques]

Those $7 red filters are final stage filter for spray painting. Normally used AFTER an inline water separator / dryer (the compressor tank itself is a water separator also). While they see a lot of air volume the air should be very dry at that point.

I thought it was a Desiccant dryer module. If it is does absorb water, where does the water go? I don’t see how it could hold more than a few drops maybe a small fraction of an oz of water. Most electrolyzer put out much more water than that.
But the bottom line is how long it works. That’s why I say keep us posted.

[resago]

I think those are usually rated at 50 microns, not .05
please double check.

you can get 1 micron nylon filter material from mcmaster though.
I think they even have.5 micron filters.

[Painless]

I found these online for $6.99 here:

http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&itemID=1800&keyword=34066

[resago]

the D-12 Disposable Spray Gun Filter that smith is using IS .01 microns however.

gonna put a link on the parts page.

[Smith03Jetta]

I talked to the paint shop guy when I purchased the filter. he told me that if water built up in the filter it would drip back down the air line instead of clogging up the air filter media.

[solo33]

I was told Vinegar is almost as bad for aluminum as lye. Other than that the "new" bubbler looks great! I'm curious how the screen was out in to effect bubble size. Was it just fitted to the 1/4 " tube or was large piece shoved down the inside of the bubbler tube? Thanks, Ron.

Oh..........! XB owners beware. Only after 30,000 miles my front AND BACK brakes have already needed to be replaced....ouch! Especially the back brakes usually go 75+ thousand. I replaced with Napa premium pads and shoes. Hopefully these will do better than the factory ones. :confused:

[H2OPWR]

When doing tests in an open container can you see any hydroxy gas or is it just water vapor you see? How much water vapor will a bubbler remove?

If you are making pure HHO gas you will not be able to see it. Plain and simple. Anything you can see is water vapor mixed with anything you have in the water in your cell.

[solo33]

Painless's? bubbler looks like a great design. But where is the screen? Is it simply wadded up and shoved into the bottom, or is it affixed in some way to the 1/4 in tubing :confused::confused::confused: Also I'm told, the vinagar is just as bad as the KOH at reacting with aluminum. Try dropping some aluminum in a vinagar bath. I've heard aspirin? will do the job and not bother the aluminum. Also, is the 1/4 in tubing plastic or copper? Lastly, will/does the KOH precipitate onto the condenser walls slowly clogging up the condser? :eek: Thanks, Ron.

[Roland Jacques]

The condensation (water plus...) collects on the tubing inner walls, and comes out at the bottom as drips of water &___. The water keeps KOH, Noah, ... form building up. Just like salt, calcium, in saltwater does not to collect inside the tubing. Any build up should be next to nothing.

As for vinegar being corrosive like KOH on Alum. I don’t think it even close, at all. I used vinegar for years to clean lots of things including alum. I’ve never observed any corrosion using vinegar.

1. The bubbler does not create the steam vapor. So the vinegar should not leave the bubbler in the first place.

2. You can actually see alum. oxides in a lye solution, it bubbles. In a lye solution the alum could be gone in a very short time. I have never seen a reaction from vinegar.

3. Vinegar leaves no residue, lye does the residue can continue the oxides...

You don’t even have to use vinegar, you can just use striaght water. I did the coil without the bubbler and just let the drips collect. I think keeping the coil cool makes it much more effective. Painless using water to cool the coil and doubling as a bubbler is a very good set up. I used plastic tubing.

[Painless]

The screen isn't used in the bubbler, it is packed into the top of my generator reservoir just under the hho exit hose. This stops foam escaping with the hho.

I've also started using just distilled water in my cleansing bubbler with no problems. The important factor is to keep the bubbler cool in a good air stream.

[solo33]

Ok, thanks, my mistake. I thought you had a fine screen in the bottom of the bubbler, causing the large bubbles to break up into fine ones, multiplying the total bubble surface area, for better cleaning of the KOH from the solution. :rolleyes:

[Painless]

Ok, thanks, my mistake. I thought you had a fine screen in the bottom of the bubbler, causing the large bubbles to break up into fine ones, multiplying the total bubble surface area, for better cleaning of the KOH from the solution. :rolleyes:

I did have, but it broke down in the vinegar leaving a green nasty mess.

[solo33]

I think I'll add the coil of 1/4 in tubing to my "simple" bubbler, and try to figure out a way to add the screen. If that looks good, I'll put the output of the bubbler into a jar of water for a couple of hours, then toss some pieces of aluminum into that jar for a couple days and see what I get. What do you guys think? Any suggestions? Thanks.

[gizzy]

I did have, but it broke down in the vinegar leaving a green nasty mess.

I saw zero fossile fuel use stainless scrubbing pad for on top of his second bubbler. He said this will assist in having pure HHO.

[solo33]

So yesterday, having never done this, knowing my bubbler being very basic in design, must be putting out lots of KOH along with acceptable amounts of HHO :D, and not wanting my aluminum engine to be eaten alive, goes off to my local pharmacy and picks a bottle of PH indicator strips. Remember these things from high school chemistry class? They turn red when dipped into liquid that's acid, and turn blue when dipped into alkaline. Returning home I re-setup my hho generator and bubbler to a battery and added a jar of water and put the bubbler out tube into it, kinda like a second bubbler to collect the KOH for testing. Just for kicks, I stuck a strip into the HHo generator. It turned super-blue so fast from all the KOH, it must have been screaming :eek: Next I stuck a different strip into the jar of water for a base line before I turned on the HHO generator. The strip stayed yellow. Turning on the generator, I tested the jar of water off and on, most of yesterday afternoon. NO CHANGE! The strips never changed color at all!
I no longer believe a bubbler with a precipant coil and vinager and screen to break up the bubbles is necessary. My bubbler, again, is just a plain vanilla bubbler. I'll being continuing testing today and will report my findings.

[Painless]

So yesterday, having never done this, knowing my bubbler being very basic in design, must be putting out lots of KOH along with acceptable amounts of HHO :D, and not wanting my aluminum engine to be eaten alive, goes off to my local pharmacy and picks a bottle of PH indicator strips. Remember these things from high school chemistry class? They turn red when dipped into liquid that's acid, and turn blue when dipped into alkaline. Returning home I re-setup my hho generator and bubbler to a battery and added a jar of water and put the bubbler out tube into it, kinda like a second bubbler to collect the KOH for testing. Just for kicks, I stuck a strip into the HHo generator. It turned super-blue so fast from all the KOH, it must have been screaming :eek: Next I stuck a different strip into the jar of water for a base line before I turned on the HHO generator. The strip stayed yellow. Turning on the generator, I tested the jar of water off and on, most of yesterday afternoon. NO CHANGE! The strips never changed color at all!
I no longer believe a bubbler with a precipant coil and vinager and screen to break up the bubbles is necessary. My bubbler, again, is just a plain vanilla bubbler. I'll being continuing testing today and will report my findings.

A couple of thoughts I would like you to consider and throw into your testing:

1) When bubbling up through water, the bubbles are significantly large enough that the KOH in the water vapour escapes with the HHO.

2) Take the output hose from your bubbler and run it into a bucket full of cold water, try and get as much hose into the cold water as you can to ensure that condensing takes place. Place the other end of the HHO hose into an open jar. Run the system for about an hour and then disconnect the hose from the bubbler end and place your thumb over the end, then pull the hose out of the bucket and let the condensation pour out of it into the jar. Test the jar contents with one of your strips.

This would definitely provide valuable information.

[Roland Jacques]

So yesterday, having never done this, knowing my bubbler being very basic in design, must be putting out lots of KOH along with acceptable amounts of HHO :D, and not wanting my aluminum engine to be eaten alive, goes off to my local pharmacy and picks a bottle of PH indicator strips. Remember these things from high school chemistry class? They turn red when dipped into liquid that's acid, and turn blue when dipped into alkaline.

Returning home I re-setup my hho generator and bubbler to a battery and added a jar of water and put the bubbler out tube into it, kinda like a second bubbler to collect the KOH for testing.




Just for kicks, I stuck a strip into the HHo generator. It turned super-blue so fast from all the KOH, it must have been screaming :eek: Next I stuck a different strip into the jar of water for a base line before I turned on the HHO generator. The strip stayed yellow. Turning on the generator, I tested the jar of water off and on, most of yesterday afternoon. NO CHANGE! The strips never changed color at all!
I no longer believe a bubbler with a precipant coil and vinager and screen to break up the bubbles is necessary. My bubbler, again, is just a plain vanilla bubbler. I'll being continuing testing today and will report my findings.

Your testing method and conclusion is questionable to me. Painless's test method woud be a Much better test IMO.


So did this second "testing jar" have water in it before the test? If so this would not be a good test because of dilution factor. Also the bubbles Do Not effectively condensate vapors. You might just want to put a test strip in the DRY test jar. Run your HOD gen untle the test strip gets wet enough to read

[solo33]

Mr. Painless and Mr. Roland Jacques; As per your suggestion I took a half-gallon jar full of cool tap water, and placed a 5 turn coil of plastic 1/4 in tubing inside it with one end connected to the bubbler and the other open to the air. After running the "setup" for a couple of hours, a pool of liquid formed in the bottom of a coil. I very carefully extracted the liquid and stuck a piece of litmus in it..........................................IT TURNED BLUE!
Ha Ha Ha...right you were! Thank you both very much. Now grant you it was a very mild blue, but blue it was. So you made a believer out of me.
I appreciate it. I will add the coil of tubing and a stainless steel screen at the bottom of the incoming outlet tubing but I think my next test after I modify the bubbler will be with aspirin (salisitic acid). Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[solo33]

Do you have a url to zero's new bubbler? Thanks. :confused: