Anti-Foaming Agent

[dennis13030]

Has anyone tried using a anti-foaming agent(like Gas-X) within the electrolite mix? Results?

It seems that you could get usable HHO gas faster if it was not stored in the form of foam/froth inside the electrolyzer.

[Stratous]

Not something I have even thought of..lol. The question would be, what would happen to the foaming agent once mixed with other chemicals and applied electricity. I dont have alot of foam problems with NaOH. I did notice that baking soda foams alot when I was messing around with it a few weeks back.

[Phantom240]

Foaming is only a minor inconvenience AFAIK, as long as your electrodes are submerged fully.

[volomike]

Seems like a plausible idea and something to test fairly easily with the scientific method. The idea being that you want the rest of the unlifted gas to lift out of the water rather than remain there.

But also think about this. Baking soda is Sodium Bicarbonate. A Gas-X pill is Calcium Carbonate. Perhaps this means something significant to someone with knowledge of chemistry if you ask around on the web.

[Stratous]

Calcium carbonate may work as a catalyst by itself.

[Ronjinsan]

I would think that the foam which we are dealing with, contrary to being a detergent foam which can be dissipated would probably not be easy to get rid of due to its being a gas and probably not affected by the same conditions!

[dennis13030]

Calcium carbonate may work as a catalyst by itself.

This may be true. However I would use only a very small amounts because the calcium part may cloud and dirty the electrolyte over time.

My understanding is that it works by reducing surface tension.

[geobushono]

there is an anti-foaming agent that you add to hot tubs.it really works for that, however I don't know what it is, or how it will interact with the cell.

[punkdgeek]

Wouldn't something simple, like a fuel filter attached to the output help with the foaming problem?

[Omega]

I would imagine a very fine mesh screen would do the job. It would also minimize splashing and wave action in the HHO generator.

[dennis13030]

The problem is not foam getting into the output line. The problem is HHO gas is STORED inside the foam and can not be put to good use.

Eventually the bubbles in the foam gather, burst and release some HHO gas. This situation means that from the time the unit is turned on to the time that you start getting usable HHO gas that there is a significant delay.

An anti-foaming agent might be able to minimize this delay.

[Phantom240]

Oh I see. My prototypes never really had a foaming problem... they've all produced in such a violent manner that the surface of the water was constantly moving lol.

[jerryrig]

The first cell I made that I was getting some real serious gas from had a lot of foam. Not at first, but after it tapered off, the foam would start, I lit some of the foam and BOOM! Man, it was loud. I kinda liked the foam. :D

[jimbo40]

That seems kind of like trying to get the trying to get the carbon dioxide out of the soda without having it in bubble form first.
If you were to stop the foam you would have to stop the gas from coming out of the water. Thats the transition point from a liquid to gas.
It's not so much that it's foam, it's that it's such a mass of bubbles that it appears as a foam and because they can't get out of each others way fast enough.
If they bother you, put the mesh up and pop them as the other guy said.
But it seems pointless to try to defeat the process we are trying to create.
If fact I happen to be looking for way's to create more bubbles/foam.
So when your experiments don't work, let us know so we can use them.
Seem like a waste of time to me but's thats just my opinion.

[dennis13030]

That seems kind of like trying to get the trying to get the carbon dioxide out of the soda without having it in bubble form first.
If you were to stop the foam you would have to stop the gas from coming out of the water. Thats the transition point from a liquid to gas.
It's not so much that it's foam, it's that it's such a mass of bubbles that it appears as a foam and because they can't get out of each others way fast enough.
If they bother you, put the mesh up and pop them as the other guy said.
But it seems pointless to try to defeat the process we are trying to create.
If fact I happen to be looking for way's to create more bubbles/foam.
So when your experiments don't work, let us know so we can use them.
Seem like a waste of time to me but's thats just my opinion.

I don't want to stop the bubbles, I just want the bubbles to burst as soon as they reach the water surface. I do not want the bubbles to "hang around" and collect. Also, the water turns to gas between the plates. Bubbles on the water surface is due to water tension. An antifoaming agent lowers the water tension and makes it more difficult for bubbles not to burst.

As it ends up, potassium hydroxide(KOH) is used commonly in surfactants. Surfactants are wetting agents that lower the surface tension of a liquid. It is the best chemical to use in a electrolyte mix. One of the really good things about KOH is that you only need a very small amount once. When you refill the tank with water, you do not need any more KOH because it says in the tank. The only down side to KOH is that it is caustic(it will rust metal). So over enough time, your electrodes will degrade and get thinner.

[cougar gt-e]

The only down side to KOH is that it is caustic(it will rust metal). So over enough time, your electrodes will degrade and get thinner.

Hmmm, The smack-ish cell I have foams like a banshee. The electrolyte is a mixture of NaOH and KOH (drain cleaner). Is there a foam producer in the cleaner crystals or what?

Only the outer plates are looking to be darkening and sadly only those plates seem to be generating bubbles. There are 5 N plates between.

[dennis13030]

Hmmm, The smack-ish cell I have foams like a banshee. The electrolyte is a mixture of NaOH and KOH (drain cleaner). Is there a foam producer in the cleaner crystals or what?

Only the outer plates are looking to be darkening and sadly only those plates seem to be generating bubbles. There are 5 N plates between.

I suggest two changes to your electrolyzer.

1) Remove one of the neutral plates and try it again. If you still do not get enough production, goto 3 neutral plates.
2) Use only KOH.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

ONE or TWO drops of regular diesel fuel in the electrolyte works great as an anti-foaming agent.

That's all you need. Just ONE or TWO drops!

It even has a lingering effect, so far in our testing, only one application per vessel is necessary. When the electrolyzer is emptied, rinsed, and refilled with new electrolyte, foaming is still gone. Even after a few dozen cycles like this!!

[mclaing]

Theres a good post on youtube that initially worked for me, use a kitchen spong that floats on the surface. It lets the bubbles thru faster. But since then I have paid attention to foaming. It's a result of impurities starting from your stainless steel plates. There are so many variants of the steel out there. I've made literally hundreds (I do installs) And when you have the right grade, absoblutly no foam, EVER! Second is the water used. Here in San Diego you don't need baking soda for tap water. It leaves a little gunk, mailnly brown rust. My best combination has been distilled water with 1/8 teaspoon baking soda, and I never have foam. Sometimes I make a cell thinking it's SS. (non magnetic, unstained, springy etc) and all it extracts is carbon dioxide or oxygen. This is seen when you light it and instead of a bang you get a mufffled woof. Then your steell has too much Chromiun(wrong spelling) in it, and will never produce the quantaties you want. It can however still aid in gas conservation due to the high oxygen/carbon D lavel. Also, the smaller your gap the less electrolyte. I use individual strands from a Cat5 cable roll as spacing. It's tight.

[1973dodger]

Dennis,

I have used both tums as well as a non-foaming agent used in hot tubs, The non foaming agent gives me the best results without any loss in amperage, about a teaspoon / gallon, no residue either. the tums did not hurt or help with foam or a quicker release of bubbles from what i could visually see. One thought though, Calcium on the table of elements for conductivity is very high, though is only rated 4 as an electrlyte in calcium hydroxide, I think it has to do with the solubility in solution, and tums are said to be full of calcium. Though calcium is not calcium hydroxide.

1973dodger

[dennis13030]

...I have used both tums as well as a non-foaming agent used in hot tubs, The non foaming agent gives me the best results without any loss in amperage, about a teaspoon / gallon, no residue either...

What is the primary ingredient in the non foaming agent you used??

[1973dodger]

Dennis,

I'm not sure. I bought it at wal-mart, the name is "Spa Time" anti-foaming agent. Their web site is www.spatimeproducts.com.

1973dodger

[livehho]

ONE or TWO drops of regular diesel fuel in the electrolyte works great as an anti-foaming agent.

That's all you need. Just ONE or TWO drops!

It even has a lingering effect, so far in our testing, only one application per vessel is necessary. When the electrolyzer is emptied, rinsed, and refilled with new electrolyte, foaming is still gone. Even after a few dozen cycles like this!!
hi HYDROTEKPRO,

this method sounds great indeed. i'll give it a try.

have you used it for longer periods? no side effects?

[hhoconnection]

I posted a video on YouTube about the Hot Tub Foam Disperser as well as another interesting thing I discovered about the foam coming from the dry cell. The foam disperser will kill all the foam in your reservoir but it will still come out of the cell. Check out the video to see what I tried:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0gTi7ieDUI&feature=channel_page

Another concept I need to try is cleaning the plates much better before assembly. I have talked to a few people who soak their plates in various solutions to remove any possible oils or residues and they claim to not have any foam.

[iiapoxii]

what solution were they using? i was thinking like some kind of mild acid, or pure alcohol to get the grease from fingers and other residues. this would insure the best possible contact to the liquid.

[Stealth_NT]

At my 1st cell attemp I didnt put to much attention to the plates cleaning, so I asambly the cell... I can say w/o cleaning. Result's tons of foam...

At my 2nd attemp I clean very well with Thinner (I not sure if you call that in the same way like in my country but is the liquid the ppl normally use for mix the paints) Once a time I was really sure my plates was clean I have no foam troubles anymore at all.

Seems the cleaning fo the plaste's is very important. I just use KOH anda destiled water on a 7 plates dry cell.

Atm im using 2 tsp of koh on 2 lt of water I will test with more and see what happen

[JCOBERLEY]

Has anyone tried using a anti-foaming agent(like Gas-X) within the electrolite mix? Results?

It seems that you could get usable HHO gas faster if it was not stored in the form of foam/froth inside the electrolyzer.

Maybe tums would work for a catalyst?:o


PS :eek:
However I ran across this little info today and mind started thinking for HHO well at first I thought this is silly but upon thinking about it a little it just might be worth looking in to. http://www.veavideo.com/teachersNotes/ACTIO01.PDF

[brendon]

is there actually any answers for anything on this site, i mean no disrespect but i read nothing but "questions", "maybe's" or "perhaps this might work"
is there anybody on this forum thats got any confirmed experience with catalysts ? if anybody does, im simply wondering if anybody knows exactly 1. whats better, potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide
2. where can i buy it locally
3. and exactly (or even approx) how much do i mix in per ltr of water

[lhazleton]

Brendon,
In my experience, the best is KOH. I always use a 28% solution in my reactors. To acheive this, I mix 3lbs. of 93% Potassium Hydroxide flakes with 1 gal. distilled water. As far as purchasing it 'locally', I wish I had an answer. All of mine is purchased over E-Bay.
DON'T use 'drain cleaners'. They contain all kinds of crap that you don't want in your system.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Lee

[apogee]

Hello,

I don't know the first thing about HHO and all this stuff, but I'm intrigued by it and want to contribute if possible.

Anti-foaming agents:
Simethicone comes to mind as an excellent anti-foaming agent
Invitrogen sells FoamAway for $150/500 mL
Sigma sells Simethicone solution (cat # 10794) $40/100 mL (you need about 5 mL per 50 L, so it's plenty, also it will just stay in the tank)

If those lab suppliers are out of your reach, you can also purchase Infacol which is a de-gasser for infants, and which contains 40 mg/mL simethicone

FoamAway is 30 mg/mL Simethicone, so Infacol should work just perfectly as a replacement, however it will also have a bunch of other buffer salts and coloring (shouldn't be a huge issue since you'll only need a few mL)

In the States, Mylicon is probably easier to get. Mylicon is even more concentrated (about 65 mg/mL) so you might need even less. Conveniently, it comes with a dropper. Available at any pharmacy/walmart/etc for about $10 a bottle of 30 mL.

Sigma Simethicone (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?lang=en&N4=10794|SIGMA&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO|BRAND_KEY&F=SPEC)

Simethicone in action - VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l2F8shNOTU)

[cabrera]

is there actually any answers for anything on this site, i mean no disrespect but i read nothing but "questions", "maybe's" or "perhaps this might work"
is there anybody on this forum thats got any confirmed experience with catalysts ? if anybody does, im simply wondering if anybody knows exactly 1. whats better, potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide
2. where can i buy it locally
3. and exactly (or even approx) how much do i mix in per ltr of water

Brendon,
Definitely potassium hydroxide! Like Lee, I also use a 28% mix and I control the amperage draw with a PWM.
Finding KOH locally has always been a problem. You want to use food grade KOH. (at least 90% pure) I get mine from.
Essential Depot. (http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-14/biodiesel,-biofuel,-bio-diesel,/Detail)
They usually deliver within 2 days and their quality is excellent!

[apogee]

on the subject of electrolytes, i would recommend somebody to try sodium tetraborate (aka Borax). it should be available in hardware stores.

it may be useful to have a mixture of Borax : KOH of about 1:10 (so for 280 g/L (28%) KOH, use 28 g/L borax)

[jansan]

Definitely the best I have worked as an antifoam, SS wool is sold in the supermarket, placed in a small tube attached cap with two of them with PVC and the other only to pressure, also serves as a "fuse" of pressure.
This stops the foam and serves as Drie