View Full Version : Has anyone tried steam
RMForbes
10-08-2008, 07:10 PM
I have been doing research about different ways to produce hydrogen and have found that some companies are getting very good results using the waste heat from the engines exhaust to produce hydrogen gas from different fuel sources. It makes sense to me that it would require much less energy to break the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen from steam than water. Running steam through a magnetic field or a series of charged plates should produce far more gas than brute force electrolysis. By running the steam/gas mixture through a condenser any water can be sent back through again and the gases would be cooled enough for use.
I was wondering if anyone else here was experimenting along these lines.
Smith03Jetta
10-08-2008, 07:13 PM
Not here... at least not in my garage. Steam is hot and I don't have any asbestos underwear.
I have been doing research about different ways to produce hydrogen and have found that some companies are getting very good results using the waste heat from the engines exhaust to produce hydrogen gas from different fuel sources. It makes sense to me that it would require much less energy to break the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen from steam than water. Running steam through a magnetic field or a series of charged plates should produce far more gas than brute force electrolysis. By running the steam/gas mixture through a condenser any water can be sent back through again and the gases would be cooled enough for use.
I was wondering if anyone else here was experimenting along these lines.
My experience with steam is wasted energy.I don't think you'll find anything useful that would contribute to mpg gains.
Painless
10-08-2008, 07:36 PM
You might want to check out this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_electrolysis
RMForbes
10-09-2008, 04:09 PM
I think some of you are misunderstanding my point. If you run steam through a magnetic field or around charged plates you can produce much more H2 and O2 gas because the molecular bonds are much weaker in steam than from water. This is part of the concept behind GEET and the pre-ignition catalytic converter being marketed by Dutchman. Yes, you would need to cool it back down before injecting it into the intake. Running the steam through a condenser after the gases are disassociated would cool the gases and condense and recover any left over water vapor.
This may not be practical for the home builders but maybe an idea that can be explored by the more advanced members of this forum. This seems to be the direction that the industry is moving.
I think you all are misunderstanding my point. If you run steam through a magnetic field or around charged plates you can produce much more H2 and O2 gas because the molecular bonds are much weaker in steam than from water. This is part of the concept behind GEET and the pre-ignition catalytic converter being marketed by Dutchman. Yes, you would need to cool it back down before injecting it into the intake. Running the steam through a condenser after the gases are disassociated would cool the gases and condense and recover any left over water vapor.
This may not be practical for the home builders but maybe an idea that can be explored by the more advanced members of this forum. This seems to be the direction that the industry is moving.
Do you have any docs or links where you found this?I'd like to see more info on this technology.
Riddler250
10-09-2008, 05:35 PM
I think it would take a high concentration of steam for the electrical current to pass through. The water molecules are farther apart in steam and current doesn't go through air very well. By it is possible. Maybe not that efficient but 2 percent (just throwing a number out there) is better than wasting it
Painless
10-09-2008, 05:56 PM
I think it would take a high concentration of steam for the electrical current to pass through. The water molecules are farther apart in steam and current doesn't go through air very well. By it is possible. Maybe not that efficient but 2 percent (just throwing a number out there) is better than wasting it
How about inverting the current to a high enough voltage for it to jump the gap between two plates?
RMForbes
10-09-2008, 06:22 PM
Actually the voltage can be higher but you do not want any chance of an arc (can you say BOOOM!). The magnetic attraction force is what splits the gases and since the steam is in a much more active state than liquid water, the bonds break many times easier. In GEET systems they use permanent magnets. The energy required is constant but using waste heat energy the electrical energy input can be greatly reduced and still generate more hydrogen and oxygen gas.
Painless
10-09-2008, 06:29 PM
That's a good point... so, move the plates inside the cylinders and produce an arc :)
Just joking... if we could get that to work we'd have the water fuel spark plug!
Funnily enough, I've just been reading some pages about the geet type devices. Very interesting.
Riddler250
10-09-2008, 06:43 PM
How about inverting the current to a high enough voltage for it to jump the gap between two plates?
I don't know how much voltage it would take but then your efficiency would drop. Is it worth testing? Not to most people. Is it a good idea? Yes it is
Riddler250
10-09-2008, 07:50 PM
So I'm sittin here at work not really doin anything and go to turn on a light and got shocked. Just then a light bulb lit up over my head.. And it hit me. A stun gun. You can adjust the voltage and wire it to a cell. Pump steam through it and see if it works. Some guns will go to 50 thousand volts.
RMForbes
10-09-2008, 07:57 PM
If you go to the http://panaceauniversity.org website they have a high voltage spark plug that ignites water mist directly without generating heat. They say it's more like lighning, it produces a very powerful concussion wave.
RMForbes
10-09-2008, 08:00 PM
So I'm sittin here at work not really doin anything and go to turn on a light and got shocked. Just then a light bulb lit up over my head.. And it hit me. A stun gun. You can adjust the voltage and wire it to a cell. Pump steam through it and see if it works. Some guns will go to 50 thousand volts.
Better wear ear protection because it can damage your hearing. Be Carefull!!
Stevo
10-10-2008, 01:46 AM
This may need a new thread, but I am gathering that water vapor injection is actually pretty beneficial. For example, some of our more heated cells that produce water vapor like +-+-+-+-.
I am considering running my HHO booster at 1 LPM and filtering out all water vapor (or as much as possible), then just using a simple air stone nossil with the typical high temp container and combining that clean water vapor with the HHO gas from the booster to try and gain some mileage.
Most all the references I find using water or water vapor injection state pretty decent MPG gains regularly. When I first heard about water vapor injection from a buddy of mine a few years ago, I thought the guy was off his meds. :D Apparently not. Ideas? Thoughts?
Riddler250
10-10-2008, 11:03 AM
This may need a new thread, but I am gathering that water vapor injection is actually pretty beneficial. For example, some of our more heated cells that produce water vapor like +-+-+-+-.
I am considering running my HHO booster at 1 LPM and filtering out all water vapor (or as much as possible), then just using a simple air stone nossil with the typical high temp container and combining that clean water vapor with the HHO gas from the booster to try and gain some mileage.
Most all the references I find using water or water vapor injection state pretty decent MPG gains regularly. When I first heard about water vapor injection from a buddy of mine a few years ago, I thought the guy was off his meds. :D Apparently not. Ideas? Thoughts?
I found an extra soap stone under the fish tank, So i think im gonna try just vapor until i get my gen together
Stevo
10-10-2008, 02:44 PM
Yeh, I am gonna do the exact same thing here until I receive my PWM. I will post my gains, if any, to a seperate thread.
Riddler250
10-10-2008, 02:56 PM
Yeh, I am gonna do the exact same thing here until I receive my PWM. I will post my gains, if any, to a seperate thread.
I was thinking about just getting a small piece of pvc capped on both ends two hoses one just to keep pressure in the pipe and the other running to the vacuum line (maybe?, not sure.) two soap stones one in the bottom of the pvc hooked to the line going to vacuum. one right before vacuum. maybe i will try it this weekend.
Stevo
10-10-2008, 03:02 PM
I was thinking about just getting a small piece of pvc capped on both ends two hoses one just to keep pressure in the pipe and the other running to the vacuum line (maybe?, not sure.) two soap stones one in the bottom of the pvc hooked to the line going to vacuum. one right before vacuum. maybe i will try it this weekend.
I plan on throwing one of these together this weekend. Shouldn't take more than an hour or so including the install.
http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/water_injection/novak/
Painless
10-10-2008, 04:05 PM
I put together a water injection using an aquarium airstone and a coffee jar. I used some thin diameter tubing and ran it right up next to the throttle body. Didn't look like it was pulling any water vapour though.
Thinking maybe we need a venturi of some sort?
Stevo
10-10-2008, 04:24 PM
I would only fill the bottle about 1/5-1/4 of the way to try and avoid non-vaporized water to the engine. Also, it seems that maybe a sponge/air stone combination in this setup would be best as the sponge will aid in wicking.
scratch the brake booster line. that'd be a vacuum leak.
gizzy
10-10-2008, 04:37 PM
I put together a water injection using an aquarium airstone and a coffee jar. I used some thin diameter tubing and ran it right up next to the throttle body. Didn't look like it was pulling any water vapour though.
Thinking maybe we need a venturi of some sort?
I did this ona a 70 GTO once and it kept the engine and exhaust clean. Didn't have to blow it out as much. It worked to keep the engine clean including your valaes in a carburated engine. But personally these new cars?
Stevo
10-10-2008, 10:49 PM
The airstone idea I mentioned earlier is a decent idea, but... this one is better and makes more sense.
http://web.hometel.com/~tron/
Basically, this is what it takes:
http://web.hometel.com/~tron/evap%20001.jpg
Gonna give it a go via the pcv line tomorrow.
H2OPWR
10-11-2008, 02:09 AM
Maybe I am wrong but I haven given alot of thought to electrolizing steam. Here is the problem I can't seem to overcome in my mind. We all have to add something to distilled water to make elecrticity flow and make HHO. The way you distill water is to boil it and collect steam and let it condense into water. That said steam is nothing but hot distilled water and would not conduct electricity. Anything you would measure would be only water vapor and not help at all.
Stevo
10-12-2008, 10:26 AM
Maybe I am wrong but I haven given alot of thought to electrolizing steam. Here is the problem I can't seem to overcome in my mind. We all have to add something to distilled water to make elecrticity flow and make HHO. The way you distill water is to boil it and collect steam and let it condense into water. That said steam is nothing but hot distilled water and would not conduct electricity. Anything you would measure would be only water vapor and not help at all.
Yep, you would have some issues trying to electrolyze steam. Seems it might take to AC voltage better than DC voltage. I could be wrong, but it also seems that the arcing potential would be extraordinarily high.
Stevo
10-13-2008, 12:33 AM
Finally got this going this weekend.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8007/pa120175vt2.jpg
I decided to use some of the wasted heat from the radiator hose and fans to help evaporate the 50/50 alcohol/water mixture. The hose is running very close to the throttle body with a fitting that is straight, but has an angular end inside the intake tube facing the throttle body to aid in suction.
RMForbes
10-14-2008, 12:03 PM
Maybe I am wrong but I haven given alot of thought to electrolizing steam. Here is the problem I can't seem to overcome in my mind. We all have to add something to distilled water to make elecrticity flow and make HHO. The way you distill water is to boil it and collect steam and let it condense into water. That said steam is nothing but hot distilled water and would not conduct electricity. Anything you would measure would be only water vapor and not help at all.
Yes, you are wrong. It's not really the electricity that disassociates the hydrogen and oxygen gases. It's the magnetic field. The plates are charged, the anode is positve and the cathode is negative. The anode attracts the oxygen and the cathode attracts the hydrogen causing the gases to split. Since the steam already has absorbed heat energy less electrical energy is required to produce a magnetic field strong enough to split the gases. Therefore, there is no need for electrolyte added to the steam for our purposes. If you were trying to produce pure hydrogen then you would need to use a catalytic element to the plates (see Wiki Steam Electrolysis).