The 'edge effect' of plates

[Iain]

Hi all,

I've been researching plate configurations for some time now and i've noticed that much more hydrogen is produced from the edges of the plates, rather than the much larger surface area of the plates themselves. Is this because the current flows out of the edges of the plate? I use the bull at a gate approach -+-+- forcing as many amps into the cell as possible. The reason for this being is that its easier to slow a cell down (regulate the current being supplied to the cell) than to speed it up. I've been designing plates which have as many edges as possible to facilitate a more efficient cell. What are your thoughts on this??

Thanks

[SpecHunter]

The "leading edge" effect you described is because the bubbles form and cannot "hold" onto the edge thus releasing from the edge and allowing another bubble to form more quickly, thus more production. This is why ppl "condition " their plates by roughing them up thus forming minute ridges on their plates for the bubbles to release from, resulting in more production.
As far as voltage jumping goes... alot of ppl are sealing the edges of their plates to minimize voltage jumps / create flow and so forth. check out utube for more info on this.ppl are trying alot of different things.

" And thats all I have to say bout that" :o F.Gump

[donnylynn]

Hi all,

I've been researching plate configurations for some time now and i've noticed that much more hydrogen is produced from the edges of the plates, rather than the much larger surface area of the plates themselves. Is this because the current flows out of the edges of the plate? I use the bull at a gate approach -+-+- forcing as many amps into the cell as possible. The reason for this being is that its easier to slow a cell down (regulate the current being supplied to the cell) than to speed it up. I've been designing plates which have as many edges as possible to facilitate a more efficient cell. What are your thoughts on this??

Thanks

interesting observations. Trying to remember some of my physics from many moons ago. Seems like the emf at any given point on a charged body (such as our plates) increases as the radius of curvature decreases. The radius of the edges is very small so the emf is larger. Perhaps this is allowing the electrons to "jump" off the plates easier??

emf definition is here
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emf

This might also explain how sanding the plates helps production. It creates tiny grooves and peaks on the plates. The peaks have a small radius. Maybe I need to take another look at threaded rods, althought it will take a lot of them to give the surface area needed.

Too bad we cant invent a plate that is all edges! :)

[Iain]

G'day

I had a look over my physics books from uni and your right guys, you've given me a new avenue to research. I was thinking scoring the plates (by rolling sharpened wheels) on either side to create more edges. I will let you know how i go

Cheers :D

[BoyntonStu]

interesting observations. Trying to remember some of my physics from many moons ago. Seems like the emf at any given point on a charged body (such as our plates) increases as the radius of curvature decreases. The radius of the edges is very small so the emf is larger. Perhaps this is allowing the electrons to "jump" off the plates easier??

emf definition is here
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emf

This might also explain how sanding the plates helps production. It creates tiny grooves and peaks on the plates. The peaks have a small radius. Maybe I need to take another look at threaded rods, althought it will take a lot of them to give the surface area needed.

Too bad we cant invent a plate that is all edges! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4GCPSRMU5c

BoyntonStu

[Roland Jacques]

It seems to me that most experts have found that edges are where you loose efficiency. You do see HHO from on edges faster but at the cost of more power (or lost power) to get the same output. This is why sealed cells generally have higher MMW.

Rough Sanding plates are another questionable thing. Water 4 gas & Smack (last I heard) like the edges. But Zero, Boyce... say no edge is better.
Boyce has reported to have gotten 12 MMW out of his cells personally I believe Boyce and the others that have gotten high MMW's. If I sand, it will only be to clean pates with ultra fine sand paper, then condition with citric acid and low watts.

Seems like many mixed opinions. But I go with the results. Maybe others with first hand comparisons will chime in.

[Iain]

I hope so Roland...

Has any scientific reseach been conducted? Research where accurate results have been published? We all have done our own research and tested different theories but we all seem to come up with different results. Is this because we are looking at the issue from different angles?

I'm currently developing a wrapped cell (two plates wrapped around each other) purely because there is the most surface area given the smallest volume. I know this comes at an increased cost to produce but i haven't seen much information pertaining this arrangement and wish to test it out myself. The wrapped cells also have the least amount of edges givin the greatest surface area.

If the highest losses occur at the edges of the plate would it be desirable to roll the edges over so the sharp edges are not just pointing into the ether and creating 'white noise' within the cell? Or is this power loss just being converted to heat? What happens to it?

And what would be the best way to test for efficiency? output/current (lpm/A) or ???

So many questions....lol
I'm going to hit the books again and try to work this out. I checked out the link http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emf but didn't find it that helpful. Thanks anyway

Oh what do you mean by 'sealed cells' Roland?

Any thoughts on any of this??????

:cool:

[Roland Jacques]

I hope so Roland...

Has any scientific reseach been conducted? Research where accurate results have been published? We all have done our own research and tested different theories but we all seem to come up with different results. Is this because we are looking at the issue from different angles?

I'd say yes, enough reseach has been done, but im not sure where to stear you find it in one spot. the MMW numbers says it all.

I'm currently developing a wrapped cell (two plates wrapped around each other) purely because there is the most surface area given the smallest volume. I know this comes at an increased cost to produce but i haven't seen much information pertaining this arrangement and wish to test it out myself. The wrapped cells also have the least amount of edges givin the greatest surface area.

If the highest losses occur at the edges of the plate would it be desirable to roll the edges over so the sharp edges are not just pointing into the ether and creating 'white noise' within the cell? Or is this power loss just being converted to heat? What happens to it?

I don't know, good question

And what would be the best way to test for efficiency? output/current (lpm/A) or ???

MMW rating. Mililiter / Miniute / Watt. How many Mililiters can be produced in 1 Minute with each Watt of power.

So many questions....lol
I'm going to hit the books again and try to work this out. I checked out the link http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emf but didn't find it that helpful. Thanks anyway

Oh what do you mean by 'sealed cells' Roland?

Sealed cell - Dry cell - Tero type cell.

Any thoughts on any of this??????

:cool:

Wraped cells out perform unwraped cells. Sealed cells out perform wet cells (generally, some wet cells have sealed edges... and some sealed cell are not put together right so...) from that I deduct we dont want edge. for me id call it a fact.


Sealed Cell videos with great MMW
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Iroj_oG4euI
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=XmDxcmqlT5U&feature=related

[Jaxom]

I can agree that open plate edges are bad, due to the open path for current around the sides of the plates. If you have a multi-plate cell in an nopen bath, the electrons can leave the - plate, travel through the electrolyte AROUND the N plates, and then exit through the + plate. That's waste current, and most likely excess heat. Wrapping the cell eliminates a lot of the space for current to "bypass" the cell, but you have to leave openings at top and bottom for water and HHO to travel, so there's still some waste current. With a sealed cell, the only waste current is through the holes drilled in the plates for water and HHO flow. I think this is the sole reason for the consistent differences in MMW between the three designs.

I also think this is why the Smith/Plumbabob design works so well in spite of being open-bath...the cell gaps are seperated by at least an inch, and the space is electrically bridged by the electrodes themselves, which means the water between plate pairs is more resistive than the path through the plates, therefore the current travels only through the plates and not around them.

I haven't done any testing with scored vs. unscored plates so I can't really comment on that, except that "it seems to me" that scored plates would yield more surface area and thusly increase overall conductivity of the cell. Just a hunch, I could be wrong.

[Iain]

The internet, what a beautiful tool we possess!

I agree with you about the scoring of plates in theory, i mean it makes sense. I'm going to go down that path. I just want to produce a wet cell that puts out as much hho as possible.
Well, as we all do.

Look really closly at your cell when its operating.
Has anyone else noticed the way tiny bubbles of gas are carried within the cell?
On early tests conducted, a cell comprising of stainless tubing of steadily increasing increments (in this arrangement --> -+-+-+-) i noticed that the water flows around the cell. Up the side of one piece of tubing and down between the next two pieces of tubing until the bubbles attach themselves to other bubbles and causing them to rise and escape in to the atmosphere (leave the cell).

At the time i didn't put very much thought into this phenomemum occuring, but could the emf within plate be acting on the water? Stupid question really, of course it is. I mean do you remember the right hand rule pertaining to current flow?

Putting more thought into this, i think i'm going to shape the edges to facilitate less flow within the cell (the water becoming more static) and score the side of the plates to form an easier path for the eletrons to travel perpendicular to the plates.

Hence more output...

I'm going to try and test this theory hypothically using computer modelling that displays current flow as a colour map within the cell.

Thank you all, you've been very helpful

:)

[Jaxom]

On early tests conducted, a cell comprising of stainless tubing of steadily increasing increments (in this arrangement --> -+-+-+-) i noticed that the water flows around the cell. Up the side of one piece of tubing and down between the next two pieces of tubing until the bubbles attach themselves to other bubbles and causing them to rise and escape in to the atmosphere (leave the cell).

At the time i didn't put very much thought into this phenomemum occuring, but could the emf within plate be acting on the water? Stupid question really, of course it is. I mean do you remember the right hand rule pertaining to current flow?

For those who don't know the right hand rule, (or left hand rule, depending on whether you're talking about conventional current or electron current flow,) when a magnetic field and an electric current are passed through a conductive material perpendicular to each other, the material is moved in a direction perpendicular to both. This rule is the basis for operation of electric motors and generators. The same effect generates a magnetic field around any conductor which has current passing through it. This is the basis of operation for electromagnets.

This came up once before on another thread....Spiro was fooling around with electromagnetic fields to see how they affected production, and I had a flashback to a Popular Science article I read years ago about magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion. The right hand rule pertains to any conductive material, including elelctrolyte (or seawater in the article.) The idea I had was to use this effect to circulate water through the cell to help liberate the HHO from the plates. It could also potentially serve to circulate electrolyte through an external cooler. Run a search for "Spiro cell" and the thread should turn up.

[HALS-GUNSMITHING]

For those who don't know the right hand rule, (or left hand rule, depending on whether you're talking about conventional current or electron current flow,) when a magnetic field and an electric current are passed through a conductive material perpendicular to each other, the material is moved in a direction perpendicular to both. This rule is the basis for operation of electric motors and generators. The same effect generates a magnetic field around any conductor which has current passing through it. This is the basis of operation for electromagnets.

This came up once before on another thread....Spiro was fooling around with electromagnetic fields to see how they affected production, and I had a flashback to a Popular Science article I read years ago about magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion. The right hand rule pertains to any conductive material, including elelctrolyte (or seawater in the article.) The idea I had was to use this effect to circulate water through the cell to help liberate the HHO from the plates. It could also potentially serve to circulate electrolyte through an external cooler. Run a search for "Spiro cell" and the thread should turn up.

I wonder if a small impeller in the bottom of the cell would push the buubles off the plates and maybee keep the water cooler.