Ideas... Amplifier and Water Vapor Injection

[bigapple]

Since hydroxy injection is pretty simple, yet construction is complex, I've decided to try what others say helps (or so I've read). It's a pretty simple concept and I doubt the amount of water vapor injected is enough to create the dreaded ferrous oxide (rust!). Since this water vapor expands more during combustion, it's supposed to help aid in forcing down the pistons after TDC, thus using less gasoline.

Supposedly, you are supposed to run a tube (inlet) into the bottom of a container of water, with a bubbler stone connected to the end of this tube. (walmart - 3 bucks for two of them in the aquarium section) Basically, the rest of the design works like a bubbler does, except that, since its under vacuum, (T-ed at the PCV valve line) pressure decreases inside the container and air is simply drawn in, rather than being pushed in by a generator. I've looked for ways that its set up, and it seems that basic. Maybe I'm wrong and someone can correct me, because if its that simple, I'm going to make a simple set-up tomorrow to test under the hood. Any feedback on this would be nice, even considering the idea of both HHO and water vapor. I wonder if this would create too much water in the combustion process though, so hopefully this will open some discussion.

Also, since it has been determined that current increase increases production, I wonder how a setup with a small speaker amplifier (say 100 watts) would aid production. I understand that more neutrals would have to be added to split up the current, but it seems like it should have increased output. But I also wonder that since voltage is unaffected, if this would have any affect on output.

Just a couple ideas to toss around.

Thoughts?

[Riddler250]

i love your amplifier idea, i too have thought about that. havnt tried it tho

[Painless]

I read something somewhere, can't remember where, about using an audio amplifier to deliver current at different frequencies to find the one that increases production. Although, 100 watts isn't actually a lot. 100 watts divided by 12 volts equals 8.3 amps?

As for water injection, I'd had this same thought. After removing the water vapour from my system because of the dreaded aluminum eating vapours from KOH I'd wanted to put together a safe way to add them back again. There is a piece on water injection in that link I pasted the other day...

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=159 (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1595)

[Riddler250]

Has anyone on here actually tried the water vapor injection?

[fisher]

No, but it sounds so easy that I am planning on it. I wonder if using a longer tube, say rather than a mason jar, a piece of PVC 18 inches long would subject the bubbles to the water longer making it pick up more moisture and perform better?

Another thought, distilled water only. If you used tap water, the impurities might not benefit your engine. (I won't put it into my engine, but I will drink it!)

[Riddler250]

it sounds easy enough to try. and it should only cost a few dollars. i think i have the soap stone and some hose under my fish tank

[bigapple]

I got the bubble stone from walmart and it was pretty damn cheap for a pack of two and it works well.

I used two L-shaped nylon barbs for my inlet and outlet on the first try with a durable plastic container from albertson's that seals with a gasket. The vacuum was too strong and the container shrunk like a tin can. I switched to a Food Saver container that is made for vacuum. I used one of my nylon barbs, put a breather filter on it, and ran the bubbler stone to the bottom. Fortunately, there is a hole at the top to plug in the suction line and it has a 3/8'' diameter so I went ahead and just used a hose clamp to keep it on.

I put it under my hood and I T-ed the inlet line at the PCV valve. The idle is still good and I'm getting plenty of bubbles so it's working. So, I'm letting it run to see what happens but here are a few things I've noticed.

1. Make sure to create a big airspace above the water or to use a deep container or some sort of block for the splashing water. Since you're driving around, water will have a tendency to run straight up this tube into the vacuum since its under suction.

2. The bubbler stone creates plenty of bubbles and causes the water to slosh around a good bit. Make sure to have a good block to keep water from getting up that vacuum line.

I'm finishing up my construction for testing tomorrow. I'll take photos of this monster and let you guys check it out.

Good luck and happy trails

[Painless]

Nice one, bigapple,

I also picked up the small twin pack of airstones the other day from Walmart. I'm going to wait until I know what's going on mileage wise with my O2 extenders before I try the water injection though.

Looking forward to your results.

[Jimbo61]

Are we talking about using just water vapor into the air input?? Not an HHO generator?

I have read, and downloaded plans for a Water Injection system that involves a pressure pump injecting into the intake, but this sounds like just letting the car vaccuum do the work. Am I right or way out in left field?

[bigapple]

Are we talking about using just water vapor into the air input?? Not an HHO generator?

I have read, and downloaded plans for a Water Injection system that involves a pressure pump injecting into the intake, but this sounds like just letting the car vaccuum do the work. Am I right or way out in left field?

Nah, you're on the right track. There are very advanced systems of vapor injection. Sometimes they use methanol/water at a 50/50 mix for direct port injection. These are very advanced systems. We're simply putting a container of water under vacuum to convert it into vapor form.

If anyone has ideas on things that could be mixed in the distilled water (methanol, acetone, etc) shoot your ideas this direction. I hate my V6 already so I don't mind testing some things.

Here's an update. I created a little splash-guard and it seems like it'll work well. I used a lid of a container and used silicone to adhere it to the small cylinder in the top of the container. I wrapped a small towel with a zip-tie around the top as well just to make sure that all the water gets captured. This flat piece has a couple holes around the corner to make sure it can breath, but all-in-all, I believe this will work if vapor injection really is a performance enhancer.

(you can notice all the wiring I've done for hydroxy injection. Going look for neoprene today and resealing my generator)

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo11.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo12.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo13.jpg

[redneckgearhead34]

I was thinking why not take some small radiator hose and run it around your jar containing the vaporizer. This would bring the temp of the water up quite a bit.

I think I am going to steal my little brother aquarium pump(that he does not use anymore) make it run on 12vDC then use it along side with the vacuum of the vehicle.

What do yall think?

[bigapple]

I'm not really sure how you're explaining that so if you could clear it up I might be able to help you out a bit, but from the way it sounds, you want to create steam in a way. If you have a water separator for your vacuum line, I'd say go for it. But I'm simply making low-temp water vapor with no form of water droplets in it.

Just an update, I hooked it all up under the hood and the water-shield that I constructed works great and I'm no longer getting any water or condensation in the vacuum line so that's always a plus.

When I first put the vaporizer together, I hooked it up to my car without the breather filter on it to make sure I'm getting a good vacuum and that I'm drawing in air and making water vapor. I started up the car and heard one of the highest pitched whistles I've ever heard in my life. WORD OF CAUTION: If you value having eardrums, make sure to stuff the intake line with steel wool to dampen out the sound. It still whistles a little bit, but it has gone down substantially in sound.

It's working like its supposed to and everything is pretty snug under the hood. Tonight I'm resetting the ECU by unplugging the battery and I'm refilling the gas tank to get a measurement of mpg for the next tank. Wish me luck.

[bigapple]

Alright, well I'm not sure if these are substantial results for facts but here's what I've got.

I was getting about 13.7 in the city before I tried vapor injection. I took a road trip with my friends this weekend to Lafayette, which is about an hour away from Baton Rouge. I drove right around 75+ and had to floor it a few times to catch up with our leader who was terrible.

I averaged right around 17.1 which doesn't sound too great but it seems like an improvement because there are a few factors to consider.

1. I drove faster than most highway ratings are posted at. If I had gone about 55-60 for the drive, I may have averaged about 18 or 18.5.

2. I also had to floor it a few times and I know that takes a decent amount off of the average mpg.

I'm thinking it's working but before I start adding stuff to the water, I'm going to see how it does on distilled water alone in the city.

I'm thinking of adding acetone or methanol, or possibly both to the water to see how it works out. Acetone has very flammable vapors and the methanol will assist in vaporizing the water, so maybe that will give me a little extra push.

I'll post results from my city mpg on the next fillup.

[Stevo]

Alright, well I'm not sure if these are substantial results for facts but here's what I've got.

I was getting about 13.7 in the city before I tried vapor injection. I took a road trip with my friends this weekend to Lafayette, which is about an hour away from Baton Rouge. I drove right around 75+ and had to floor it a few times to catch up with our leader who was terrible.

I averaged right around 17.1 which doesn't sound too great but it seems like an improvement because there are a few factors to consider.

1. I drove faster than most highway ratings are posted at. If I had gone about 55-60 for the drive, I may have averaged about 18 or 18.5.

2. I also had to floor it a few times and I know that takes a decent amount off of the average mpg.

I'm thinking it's working but before I start adding stuff to the water, I'm going to see how it does on distilled water alone in the city.

I'm thinking of adding acetone or methanol, or possibly both to the water to see how it works out. Acetone has very flammable vapors and the methanol will assist in vaporizing the water, so maybe that will give me a little extra push.

I'll post results from my city mpg on the next fillup.

Bigapple,

Go with Isopropyl and make sure the mixture is 50/50 water to iso. Consider that iso is about 70% alcohol too. Also, for best results... place your container near the radiator fans (hopefully you got polycarbonate and not acrylic) and/ or hoses to help the evaporation. Heat will work way better than just air alone. I have my polycarbonate sports bottle touching the radiator return hose and partially in the path of the main radiator fan. I have measured the temps on a really hot day after running hard and they are around 212*F at the top of the radiator, so evaporation should happen very easily. Heat is the key. Also using a good porous sponge in the container and allowing the majority of it's surface area to be out of the mixture will help with wicking.

[bigapple]

Bigapple,

Go with Isopropyl and make sure the mixture is 50/50 water to iso. Consider that iso is about 70% alcohol too. Also, for best results... place your container near the radiator fans (hopefully you got polycarbonate and not acrylic) and/ or hoses to help the evaporation. Heat will work way better than just air alone. I have my polycarbonate sports bottle touching the radiator return hose and partially in the path of the main radiator fan. I have measured the temps on a really hot day after running hard and they are around 212*F at the top of the radiator, so evaporation should happen very easily. Heat is the key. Also using a good porous sponge in the container and allowing the majority of it's surface area to be out of the mixture will help with wicking.

Yea I considered using Isopropyl but I wondered what exactly is the other 30%? Is it just more water? If so then the 50/50 would need to be offset a bit.

And you're right about the heat and it's been considered. I just wonder how exactly I can get it next to a radiator hose because the bottle would have to be suspended to be touching it.

And also since Isopropyl is more volatile than water and evaporates much faster, I think I might want to offset the 50/50 to maybe 70/30 Iso/Water.

What do you think?

[hg2]

Would denatured also work for this?I think it's 100% achohol if I remember correctly.

[bigapple]

Would denatured also work for this?I think it's 100% achohol if I remember correctly.

Well, any volatile gas is going to be flammable, it's just a matter of which one has the best burn, and which one is the best bang for the buck. The key here is we're trying to reduce the price you pay for gas. So, if a big jug of denatured alcohol costs more than a big jug of acetone or isopropyl, you should go with the cheaper one to save more money because that is the key. Good mileage=less money (with the lower priced chemicals that aid for the best burn in the cylinders).

[bigapple]

UPDATE: Just found a forum called fuel-saver.org and they have a complete thread on methanol/water vapor injection.

Here's the link: http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/showthread.php?tid=210&page=1

Some of the things that were pointed out were interesting.

1. If you put your vaporizer close to something hot, it will actually increase the temperature of the incoming air and have a reverse effect. Although it speeds vaporization, the incoming vapor won't be as cool and won't be able to absorb as much energy during combustion, which is trying to be done.

2. Using a fogger will help speed the vaporization process by also keeping the temperature low.

I'm not sure where the cheapest fogger would be available but I'm going to research it a little more.

I'm going to test with distilled water alone, then adding isopropyl, then adding acetone and seeing what my results show. If a fogger will be the ultimate key to helping here, then I may have to make another purchase. The benefits seem pretty clear though: lower operating temperature, better combustion, smoother operation, increased mpg and performance. *Think about this plus hydroxy. Could see some good things.*

[Boltazar]

Water vapor systems sound logical to increase mpg but I was wondering/ Leaning out the gas increases the exhaust and head temp. Would the water vapor system reduce the heat so maybe we could decrease the gas some more. I THINK I HAVE THE VAPORS

[Painless]

Yes it would!

I had the same thought. Would like to be using an EGT meter before I went that far though.

[Stevo]

1. If you put your vaporizer close to something hot, it will actually increase the temperature of the incoming air and have a reverse effect. Although it speeds vaporization, the incoming vapor won't be as cool and won't be able to absorb as much energy during combustion, which is trying to be done.


It's funny. My setup has the radiator hose touching one side of the bottle and the other side is exposed to a constant flow of outside air, so the side where the air is exposed stays cool enough to put your whole hand on and contains so much vapor that you cannot tell there is a sponge in the middle. The other side touching the radiator is hot and you wouldn't want to put your whole hand on it. This side has zero vapor and it's easy to see the sponge. Overall, the temperature of the water vapor still ends up being much less than the temperature of the combustion chamber.

[bigapple]

It's funny. My setup has the radiator hose touching one side of the bottle and the other side is exposed to a constant flow of outside air, so the side where the air is exposed stays cool enough to put your whole hand on and contains so much vapor that you cannot tell there is a sponge in the middle. The other side touching the radiator is hot and you wouldn't want to put your whole hand on it. This side has zero vapor and it's easy to see the sponge. Overall, the temperature of the water vapor still ends up being much less than the temperature of the combustion chamber.

Haha, pretty interesting setup. I'm still working with mine.

I added some isopropyl and I noticed a few things.

1. I don't know if it's my imagination, but it seemed like the engine had a higher initial rev the first time I added it with the alcohol.

2. There are much more bubbles. Bubbles made before were visible, but now even more are visible, to the point that there's a light film on the top while the vaporizer is running.

Adding alcohol is definitely helping so I'm awaiting results. I have yet to see whether isopropyl or acetone is the way to go.

The good thing about both of these is since they are volatile, they evaporate quickly. And since they are cold to the touch, they readily take energy from the outside surroundings to evaporate. So this aids in evaporating the water and helps it stay somewhat cool as it enters the engine. The air is then more dense and cooler and can absorb more of the heat inside the combustion chambers.

After experimenting with this, I will see if running hydroxy through the intake and water/isopropyl through the vacuum port (PCV) will have good effects. In theory, it seems like it will and I hope the outcome is good as well.

[bigapple]

Ok, so my test with Isopropyl continues. There is a good site link that is posted in general discussions named ''info source." I forget who posted it, but the information is extensive and well-tested. The guy is a bit of a liberal so you have to read through the B-S but his facts are substantial.

After reading, he mentions that alcohols slightly lower mpg and that the best fuel additives for slightly increased octane and better efficiency are xylene, toulene, and acetone. He does his tests adding them to the gas tank but I believe I'm going to try it through the vacuum line first, since he says its 3 oz of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline for optimal efficiency, so I figure it may be close to the same amount going through a vaporizer (obviously some margin of error still exists though).

I'm currently running a small bubbler vaporizer through the vacuum PCV valve into the intake manifold. It seems to function very well and It seems like efficiency may be increased (but I always make that up in my mind). So until I get the gas bill and calculate average miles (200 miles to offset the potential 20% margin of error), I won't be set sticking to one chemical. I'm going purchase bottles of 100% xylene and toulene today and I already have a bottle of acetone. After this test with isopropyl/water vapor, I'm going to test acetone/water vapor at about a 70/30 mixture (that could be altered the the future). I will precede with the other 2 chemicals and see which works best. After that, I'll try all 3 mixed with water and see how it works as well.

EDIT: Another question I forgot to ask; since these chemicals I'm using are volatile, if I let them sit sealed up in a container run to the PCV valve, would these chemicals be able to evaporate and escape? It seems like it would be sealed off to some degree by the engine (valve, piston, and cam positions). If it still tends to evaporate easily, I may have to add a solenoid valve. If anyone knows a cheap place to get one, keep me posted please.

[bigapple]

WOW! Did not expect this at all.

I cut my drive a bit short because I was dying to try acetone but the isopropyl did incredible.

I drove 131 miles on 7.5 gallons which yields 17.5 mpg city, to my old 13.7. I disconnected the battery before hooking up the unit, then hooked up the unit and let the computer do the work. An improvement of almost 4 mpg is so much more than I had expected.

My ingredients were simply 50/50 distilled/isopropyl(70%) and ran this into my vacuum line at the pcv valve. Engine operation was much smoother and idle was improved.

I just started it up with 50/50 distilled/acetone(100%) and the engine didn't seem to like it much but I think it might be too strong of a mixture. If I use maybe a 70/30 distilled/acetone(100%) mix, it might help the engine to handle the vapors. I'll see if operation improves, and if not, I'll refill the tank, use a more diluted mixture, and see what engine operation shows.

So far I'm absolutely fascinated about how much easier this was to do than using hydroxy gas. I give every bit of respect to those that have made it work for their cars, but it was very tough to get it to work for mine. I went ahead and tried a new simple design and the gains were great.

I'll continue trying different chemicals and keep everyone posted!:cool:

[Riddler250]

Those are awesome results. I'm ready to try it in mine now

[Painless]

WOW! Did not expect this at all.

I cut my drive a bit short because I was dying to try acetone but the isopropyl did incredible.

I drove 131 miles on 7.5 gallons which yields 17.5 mpg city, to my old 13.7. I disconnected the battery before hooking up the unit, then hooked up the unit and let the computer do the work. An improvement of almost 4 mpg is so much more than I had expected.

My ingredients were simply 50/50 distilled/isopropyl(70%) and ran this into my vacuum line at the pcv valve. Engine operation was much smoother and idle was improved.

I just started it up with 50/50 distilled/acetone(100%) and the engine didn't seem to like it much but I think it might be too strong of a mixture. If I use maybe a 70/30 distilled/acetone(100%) mix, it might help the engine to handle the vapors. I'll see if operation improves, and if not, I'll refill the tank, use a more diluted mixture, and see what engine operation shows.

So far I'm absolutely fascinated about how much easier this was to do than using hydroxy gas. I give every bit of respect to those that have made it work for their cars, but it was very tough to get it to work for mine. I went ahead and tried a new simple design and the gains were great.

I'll continue trying different chemicals and keep everyone posted!:cool:

Those are awesome results!! Nice work!

I've been back through the thread, but could you possibly post your exact design for your WVI unit?

[Riddler250]

Did you lean your fuel?

[Stevo]

WOW! Did not expect this at all.

I cut my drive a bit short because I was dying to try acetone but the isopropyl did incredible.

I drove 131 miles on 7.5 gallons which yields 17.5 mpg city, to my old 13.7. I disconnected the battery before hooking up the unit, then hooked up the unit and let the computer do the work. An improvement of almost 4 mpg is so much more than I had expected.

My ingredients were simply 50/50 distilled/isopropyl(70%) and ran this into my vacuum line at the pcv valve. Engine operation was much smoother and idle was improved.

I just started it up with 50/50 distilled/acetone(100%) and the engine didn't seem to like it much but I think it might be too strong of a mixture. If I use maybe a 70/30 distilled/acetone(100%) mix, it might help the engine to handle the vapors. I'll see if operation improves, and if not, I'll refill the tank, use a more diluted mixture, and see what engine operation shows.

So far I'm absolutely fascinated about how much easier this was to do than using hydroxy gas. I give every bit of respect to those that have made it work for their cars, but it was very tough to get it to work for mine. I went ahead and tried a new simple design and the gains were great.

I'll continue trying different chemicals and keep everyone posted!:cool:

Yep, I figured you would see some gains with that setup. I believe I will as well here pretty soon. It's gonna be harder to tell (if not void) since I just replaced my spark plugs. Went from Iridium aftermarket to the factory laser cut platinums made specifically for my B18C1 Honda engine. Honda geeks swear by them in NA motors. Anyway, I guess I will post my gains. If I get anything greater than 31 MPG, I will let you all know as I am assuming a possible +4-5 MPG by just using the "magical" factory plugs. Man, those suckers were expensive for platinum plugs. :)

I attached the pics of my setup, which use a more negative pressure approach with high wicking sponge all hooked into the PCV system for maximum vaccum and vapor in return. Can surely tell a difference on the butt dyno with water vapor even before the plugs... I am using the same 50/50 water/alcohol. We'll see...

[bigapple]

Those are awesome results!! Nice work!

I've been back through the thread, but could you possibly post your exact design for your WVI unit?

Ok, so my design is based on this simple design with some differences.

http://www.biznetmall.com/hydrogenfuel/water_gas_injector_large.jpg

The differences though are that the "Air intake adjuster" is actually just a valve cover breather, and the water is a mixture of water and isopropyl alcohol (right now its acetone, though). Simply a bubbler stone on the end of the inlet tube with the breather on the top and the outlet is open at the top. I stuffed the inlet after the breather with steel wool though, because when I first started it up, it whistled so loud it almost killed my ears. I was wondering what the best container would be and I came across an old Food Saver storage container. Since it's made to be under vacuum, its very durable and best of all, it isn't made of glass (hate glass under the hood). I made a water catch out of a lid from a food storage container and poked holes along the outside rim to let air in but still block liquid from getting in the line. Here's a view from the top. If you want a view of the whole inside, let me know.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo13.jpg


Did you lean your fuel?

No, and I think that would definitely help me. I'm going to try to get an SCT tuner for timing changes and to lean out the mixture. When I started it up with the acetone in the unit, it idled very differently, like it had way too much fuel. I'm very much looking into leaning out the fuel.

[Stevo]

Ok, so my design is based on this simple design with some differences.

Bigapple,

Looks like you have a MAF sensor. I am guessing that since the line is hooked up after the MAF, your computer will detect a vacuum leak as the air from the vaporizer is not being metered. Have you had this trouble yet?
If not, you might eventually. I would say try to find the stock air box and inject it there so that the extra incoming air will be metered. Otherwise, I see check engine light and computer adding more fuel to try and make up for it in the future.

[bigapple]

Bigapple,

Looks like you have a MAF sensor. I am guessing that since the line is hooked up after the MAF, your computer will detect a vacuum leak as the air from the vaporizer is not being metered. Have you had this trouble yet?
If not, you might eventually. I would say try to find the stock air box and inject it there so that the extra incoming air will be metered. Otherwise, I see check engine light and computer adding more fuel to try and make up for it in the future.

Well see, the issue with that is that my vaporizer actually runs off the car's vacuum. If I was to run it somewhere else, I'd probably need a fogger of some sort. There is enough backpressure right now to where idle and cruising rpms are not affected. I had a code pop up the other day for about 5 minutes and when I got back in the car next time it vanished. I definitely want to manually lean out the mixture and reset the timing. I've been looking for the best programmer for the buck. Any idea?

[Stevo]

Well see, the issue with that is that my vaporizer actually runs off the car's vacuum.

Well, mostly I have referenced this guy's info. Apparently negative vaccum works well. No need for outside air at all as long as the vapor container can withstand the vacuum. Also the sponge is absolutely neccessary.

http://web.hometel.com/~tron/1983_dodge_rampage.htm

He's also going by the screen name: Fozzy on http://www.hho-info.com

[Riddler250]

Any updates bigapple?

[bigapple]

Any updates bigapple?

Well a friend of mine suggested using methanol because he uses it to make biodiesel and he mentioned that it speeds water evaporation. So I set up a test with methanol and water and got a modest gain. I got a total of 15.1 mpg, which is substantially lower than my 17.5 with the isopropyl and water. I just bought a new container to use. It was in the food storage area of walmart. It's a large glass container covered in aluminum, with an aluminum lid. I usually don't like having glass under my hood, but having it covered in metal makes me feel a little better (I don't know why, haha; but it does).

So I have it designed now and its much much bigger than my old container (probably close to a gallon capacity) but it sloshes around the water too much and the vacuum line sucks in a little water. I tried different methods of blocking off the water and none seem to work but I've come up with a substantial idea and I just have to put it into play now.

I'm going to put two long pieces of the 3/8" lexan on each side in the bottom of the container and glue them in with silicon gasket sealer (these pieces will be about 3/4 the height of the container). Then I'm going to put some oval-shaped (the container is oval shaped and tall) plastic container lids on top of the lexan, which will create a small platform. I'm going to stack about 3 of the plastic dividers on top of each other and punch holes on one side of each piece. Then I'm going to barely space them from each other and alternate which sides the holes are on to prevent water from getting through. So, all in all, I'm creating a small platform to block the water, and it has a very complicated exit to get to the exit line.

Once I get this set up, I'll take pictures of everything and keep trying new chemicals. Cheers

[Riddler250]

This may be a stupid question but Im having a hard time picturing this set up in my mind, could be that Im really tired or just stupid.


correct me if Im wrong but this is what im gathering...... on top of the cannister is that little air filter( where can i find one) there is a hose on the bottom of that that goes to the bubbler stone in the water? the output just comes out of the top of the canister. how far into the jar does that hose go?

[resago]

have you done the math to see if it is a savings?
where did you find iso and how much was it?

pictures?
have you tried the other chemicals?

[bigapple]

This may be a stupid question but Im having a hard time picturing this set up in my mind, could be that Im really tired or just stupid.


correct me if Im wrong but this is what im gathering...... on top of the cannister is that little air filter( where can i find one) there is a hose on the bottom of that that goes to the bubbler stone in the water? the output just comes out of the top of the canister. how far into the jar does that hose go?

Yeah, you're right. The breather filter (purchasable at autozone) goes into the inlet tube and the bubbler stone is at the bottom of hte jar. The output line is simply put under vacuum and vapor is drawn through the inlet line, to the bubbler stone, and vapor is captured from the solution inside.


have you done the math to see if it is a savings?
where did you find iso and how much was it?

pictures?
have you tried the other chemicals?

I haven't calculated that yet because I wanted to see if it worked first. But, from what I can see, I can drive an extra 30-40 miles on a tank of gas. So if I save that 7-8 bucks each time I go to the pump, the first fillup makes up for the materials purchased, and isopropyl only costs about 2 dollars for 20 ounces. So I'm in the green zone and not coming out negative.

I've tried isopropyl alcohol (70% with distilled water) and methanol, both at 50/50 mix in the container with water. I bought the isopropyl at CVS pharmacy for about 1.79 for 20 oz, and a friend of mine had a huge canister of methanol and let me use some. I just bought isopropyl at walmart for 2.09, with a 91% concentration. So hopefully I can use a lower concentration and still get the same results.

I just constructed a water catch in my container and got some pictures. I'll post them once I get the chance. I gotta run for now.

[Riddler250]

bigapple, What is the total quantity of water/alc. in the cannister and how long did it last before needing refilled?

[bigapple]

bigapple, What is the total quantity of water/alc. in the cannister and how long did it last before needing refilled?


Well the alcohol definitely gets leached out faster than the water but it stayed at a pretty good consistency for a while. It lasted the entire tank of gas. You can tell when you need to add more alcohol because the water creates a light layer of foam while the vacuum line is running as it bubbles. I've noticed that the acetone evaporates much faster than the alcohol and it makes the engine not run as smooth since the vapors are intense. But I guess thats the purpose of a test, which is why I don't mind being the guinea pig.

I used about 5 oz of alcohol (about 1/4-1/5 of the bottle) and added about 10 or so oz of water, so I guess it was a little more offset than 50/50 but I don't know if thats a huge concern.

I bought some goop (this stuff is VERY messy; permatex is much better) at a local Ace Hardware and didn't realize that the solvent in the bottle was toluene, which is quite similar to acetone. When I was done constructing it, I pulled out some of the dried goop and poured acetone on it to see if it would hold up. Unfortunately enough, acetone was a solvent of this material, so I had to start over. I went and got permatex gasket sealer from walmart in the automotive section, and that stood up to anything without dissolving. Here are the pictures after I put it in with the crappy goop stuff. The first pic shows the first layer on, with the 4 pieces of lexan adhered to the sides of the container which creates a little platform. The second shows the 2nd layer with the dividers (nuts, as you can see). And the third shows all the layers in the container. I put clay around the outlet line at the top to prevent splashing water from getting around the catch.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo14.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo15.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo16.jpg

[fisher]

I have installed a vaporizer into my Accord and am currently evaluating its operation / benefits. I used a Wal-Mart air stone and cut and made mine from 1 1/4 inch PVC. My pipe is about 10 inches long, capped at the bottom, with a reducer at the top so that I coulld screw in a threaded hose coupling. To me more plainer, ;-), I have a coupling glued onto the top, with a reducer glued into it. The reducer reduces from a 1 1/4 inch glued fitting to a 1/2 inch threaded fitting. I have a air line coupling threaded therein.

I then drilled a hole down into the reducer, beside the existing hole, for an incoming air line. Glued in an air line and attached the air stone to it.

I drilled two holes in the side of the pipe, into the couplings, and glued in an air line running between the two holes for a visible sight gauge so that I could see the water level in the pipe.

My entrance air line goes from the bottom of the pipe where the air stone is, to outside the pipe and hangs loose for about a foot. To refill the pipe, I just run the car and stick that hose into a gallon of distilled water and let it suck the water in. EASY FILL!

Now for my problem, the suction is so great that is sucks all the water out of the pipe (except for only a couple of inches worth). Evidently the water bubbles so furiously that the bubbles and their surrounding water get sucked out. (The car runs a bit rough when this happens.) First fix to try, will be a longer pipe. If that doesn't help, I will restrict the incoming air flow with a screw inserted into the open end of my intake hose.

Another thought, use my second air stone on the loose outside end of the intake hose as an air filter. Planning on doing this. Seems it would be a good idea.

Final thought, build my HHO generator to add to this system. Then instead of adding alcohol, methanol, keytone, or bean soup to my vaporizer; I will be adding HHO, and bubbling. What are your thoughts on this?

[Boltazar]

Are U guys putting this vaporizer in-line in the pcv line? Or into the air filter housing pulling outside air through the vaporizer and into the air filter housing??

[Riddler250]

In line with the pcv. I gotta drop my wife off at the airport in the morning. Yay! Then I'm going shopping for parts. Will install tomarrow or sat.

[Riddler250]

got my stuff, just need to find the pcv line.and the splice to tap into it

[bigapple]

got my stuff, just need to find the pcv line.and the splice to tap into it

Easiest way to find it would be to look for your heads and look for the tube that goes from that to the intake manifold or manifold cover. That will give you enough vacuum to get maximum bubbling. Just T off this line to your outlet for your container.

I don't think regular intake vacuum would be strong enough for this because it takes a lot of pressure to make it bubble. If you were to install a water pump with a small spout that sprays very very small amounts of water (microns), you could probably run that to your intake and have that work. Or you could possibly rig up a fogger to put inside your container and run that to your intake and a separate one to your vacuum line. Just a couple thoughts.

Also, when you put this in, make sure to disconnect your battery to reset everything. If I hadn't reset mine, I may have not gotten a 4 mpg improvement.

[Riddler250]

I found it. Just got to think of how I want to connect to it. Off to the shop to assemble everything else

[Boltazar]

After installing the vaporizer can't we just reset the computer, do we have to disconnect the battery.

[Riddler250]

After installing the vaporizer can't we just reset the computer, do we have to disconnect the battery.

unhooking the battery will reset the computer.

[Riddler250]

I got it built, and tested, just need to seal my connections. I will do that tomarrow.

[bigapple]

Update: I had a small leak in my lines and that gave me a small vacuum leak and increased the idle rpm to about 1000 rpm which skewed my results with acetone, but I went ahead and sealed it and noticed a few things.

Acetone evaporates very very quickly. This makes it quite difficult and cost-ineffective to keep adding more and more acetone to the water. I'm now testing with denatured alcohol, which is a form of ethanol. I know that ethanol in the fuel is a bad mileage enhancer, but possibly having it in vapor form added only in the combustion chamber may yield different results. From what I've observed so far, the denatured alcohol seems to evaporate slowly, but I don't believe its as slow as isopropyl.

So far, isopropyl has been the best additive and is the easiest additive to notice in the mixture with water. With some of the others, like methanol and denatured alcohol, when mixed with water, it makes the solution foggy which is a good way to gauge how much is in the mixture. When isopropyl is added, its clear, until you put it under vacuum, and then it foams a little bit and bubbles more and lets you know its a good mix. Isopropyl seems to evaporate the slowest and have the best results, but then again I've only done successful tests with 2 materials.

The testing continues. I'm going to get some toluene this week because supposedly its similar to xylene and evaporates slower.

[Boltazar]

unhooking the battery will reset the computer.

So will deleting codes with a scan gague

[bigapple]

So will deleting codes with a scan gague

That could be true, but how many people own an OBD II scanner? Unhooking the battery is the ''free" option here.

[Boltazar]

Any solid info that vapor into the intake lowers combustion temp?

[bigapple]

Any solid info that vapor into the intake lowers combustion temp?

Well this is a much more advanced system of vapor injection, but this looks like pretty substantial information.

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

It seems like compounding a lean mixture with vapor injection will give better mileage and low operating temps.

[bigapple]

Ok, so an update on my situation. Denatured alcohol and acetone both evaporated too fast to be cost effective, so gas mileage in vapor form with those is ineffective, and although there may have been a slight improvement, I didn't see one.

I just put xylene into my generator for my next test. Initial observations were that xylene is water insoluble, very very potent, and has a medium drying rating (which is good). It foams under vacuum when the unit is bubbling, which is similar to isopropyl, and when the unit has run and the foam dies down, it creates a foggy mixture with the water. So although water insoluble, it looks like they decently mix when the solution is disturbed.

Test continues...

[HALS-GUNSMITHING]

Will the isopropyl test reproof the same mpg #s and what is your highway miles?

[Riddler250]

I wonder if a noticable gain would be seen using just distilled water?

[bigapple]

Will the isopropyl test reproof the same mpg #s and what is your highway miles?

Most likely, and I'll redo it once I try some other chemicals. So far, isopropyl and water is the best.


I wonder if a noticable gain would be seen using just distilled water?

Possibly, but it evaporates very slowly. It may be more useful to install a water pump and nozzle if you were to just use straight water.

[Riddler250]

Big apple. One more question... I hooked my water vapor up Sat and noticed a few things. I had a bubbler stone acting as a filter on the output side of the canister. with that one there I was getting no bubbling of the water at all. It could be restricting a little too much. Have you tried this. Just trying to compare notes. After removing the second bubbler stone I noticed water droplets being sent into the pcv line. thus showing there is enough pressure (lack of pressure) on the line. How much liquid was visable on your line? Im courious if i should restrict the line or open it up a little more.

[HALS-GUNSMITHING]

One idea to throw at you. Fire departments used to use a wetting agent additve called wet water. In theory it would break up the water molecules and smother the fire. Jet dry is for your dish washer does the same thing. I often wondered if this would help produce more water vapor or even HHO? I never got around to trying it.

[bigapple]

Caution: DO NOT USE XYLENE IN A VAPORIZER. This photo will show how mine was destroyed by the stuff. It is very, very strong.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo17.jpg

Either the xylene slowly dissolved the silicone, or being under vacuum created this thick green gel. I'm not sure which way it went but it's not something you want to put in your vaporizer. I could spent hours cleaning this gross crap, but the fact that it clogged up the intake line and put the slush all over the inside made me want to stay clear. I still had some issues keeping water out of the line 100% of the time, so I'm going to design a new vaporizer out of clear PVC. I want this material because heat isn't the issue with vaporizers so it's not necessary to purchase polycarbonate lexan, and PVC should be able to withstand the strong vacuum. I want it clear also, so I can see what's happening on the inside of the vaporizer, because it's nice to be able to see how the solution reacts with bubbling under vacuum, and it's nice to see where a leak is coming from or where water is getting through if it does. Anyone know where I can find clear PVC?


Big apple. One more question... I hooked my water vapor up Sat and noticed a few things. I had a bubbler stone acting as a filter on the output side of the canister. with that one there I was getting no bubbling of the water at all. It could be restricting a little too much. Have you tried this. Just trying to compare notes. After removing the second bubbler stone I noticed water droplets being sent into the pcv line. thus showing there is enough pressure (lack of pressure) on the line. How much liquid was visable on your line? Im courious if i should restrict the line or open it up a little more.

I'm having a hard time knowing what you mean when you say you use the bubbler stone as a filter. If you mean that you have the bubbler stone from the intake line (from outside air) into the bottom of the solution, you're setup is correct. Make sure your container is completely sealed from outside air so that the vacuum forces air to be drawn in through that intake line. Make sure your vacuum line has a heavy pull on the inside of that container. An easy way to tell if you have a vacuum leak is your idle rpm. When I had a leak, my idle rpm was about 1000, as opposed to 600-800 like it should've been. If you get me some pictures I should be able to help you out more.

[Riddler250]

I do have Bubbler in the bottom of the canister that is connected to the breather. I had added a second bubbler stone at the lid where the vacuum line connects to the can. I did this because if the water sloshed around I didnt want the car to suck up a cup of water at one time, but when I did that I lost vacuum at the vaporizer, so i took it off. I cant find my camera right now or I would take a pic.

[bigapple]

I do have Bubbler in the bottom of the canister that is connected to the breather. I had added a second bubbler stone at the lid where the vacuum line connects to the can. I did this because if the water sloshed around I didnt want the car to suck up a cup of water at one time, but when I did that I lost vacuum at the vaporizer, so i took it off. I cant find my camera right now or I would take a pic.

I see what you're saying. Now that my container is destroyed I've come up with a new design that I'm going to work on tomorrow and I'll post pictures of my new design tomorrow. It's going to be made from PVC and I'm going to put two water catches, and I'll show you how I'm going to do it.

[HALS-GUNSMITHING]

I found this sight http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03925.htm that explains how water acts in a vacuum. It appears that any initial bubbles under 29" of vacuum is only breifly pulling air out of the water (The same air that fish would breath or a bubble stone makes or any running water stream) and then stops. Vacuum will not turn water into vapor unless you hit 29" of vac. depending on temp and atmospheric pressure. Thus I think what is happening in an HHO system is you are pulling the HHO out of the water much faster allowing the plates to produce HHO more rapidly. I just wish I had a way to measure it. Though the alcohol may help to lower the boiling point. Heat from a radiator hose may help lower the boiling point.

[fisher]

Hals-G,

First, the water vapor idea has nothing to do with HHO generation what-so-ever.

Secondly, the point of a vapor system is to bubble air through water, and thus add a small bit of moisture to that air. Simply to raise the humidity of the air being sucked into the engine. No vacuum to turn a large quantity of water into vapor, just a few bubbles that work to add some moisture.

The theory is that this will make the engine run cooler, and also since water, when turned to steam increases in area by 1200 times, to allow this large increase to add power to the engine, requiring a tad less gas.

[bigapple]

Thanks for clearing that up fisher. Although I have thought of adding a device to give me more water vapor.

Used in fog machines, if I can buy a small ultrasonic fogger and rig it up in there, I can create a lot more vapor and possibly get a little bit better gains. Supposedly they sell some small cheap ones at petsmart. And since alcohol evaporates faster than water, this may help even out the ratio a little bit.

Thoughts anyone?

[Painless]

Thanks for clearing that up fisher. Although I have thought of adding a device to give me more water vapor.

Used in fog machines, if I can buy a small ultrasonic fogger and rig it up in there, I can create a lot more vapor and possibly get a little bit better gains. Supposedly they sell some small cheap ones at petsmart. And since alcohol evaporates faster than water, this may help even out the ratio a little bit.

Thoughts anyone?

My thought:

Have you considered my idea of using a funnel as an 'air ram' behind the grill and using it to push air through your vaporiser? This would certainly give you more vapor, especially at highway speeds. The tight end of the funnel would act as a venturi resulting in high air speeds through the vaporiser.

I am meaning to try this myself, but not until I have stabalised my HHO system.

[Riddler250]

I was thinking about that the other night. I almost tried it but I didnt have enough hose.

[bigapple]

That's a pretty good idea. I might try that once I test rubbing alcohol a few times to see that it really does work, and then try some other ways to test with it. I just built a new system with PVC piping and it seems pretty reliable as for now. I'll get some photos tonight.

[bigapple]

Alright so here's my system. I used three PVC pipes, one very large and the other two quite small. I think the diameter of the large was about 4 inches, or somewhere around that range. The smaller ones were about 1 1/2 inches. I used the large one as the vaporizer container, and the two smaller ones are water catches.

The basic theory behind the smaller pipes as water catches, is that the water will collect at the bottom and have a tough way getting up to the top to get sucked up. I found that it definitely slows the process, but water can still slowly squeeze by. So, I took some shop paper towels (a little thicker than conventional) and spun them tight and packed them in each one. If these get a little wet, the air constantly passing through will assist in helping the water/alcohol evaporate, in somewhat of a self-helping system much like a catalytic converter burning unused fuel. Sorry these were taken at night under a work light, but you can still see the basic setup and design.

The main container has an air-tight screw cap that works well. It compresses a rubber gasket as you tighten it, causing the gasket to expand and seal all the gaps to ensure the container only has one direction for the air to get in. The small piece of lexan in the container is used as a water-block for splashing water. It gets rid of most splashing water from getting through to the inlet tube.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo18.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo19.jpg

[Boltazar]

Bigapple, That is a very smart design using 4" PVC with a cap at the bottom and a test plug to seal it, I'll do the same. Way to go. My only question is that I thought we were putting the vaporizer in line with the PCV valve so the intake air into the vaporizer came from the crankcase and the discharge from the vaporizer was going into the manifold. The way you have it set up I would think the engine would get too much air and maybe pop codes?

[bigapple]

Bigapple, That is a very smart design using 4" PVC with a cap at the bottom and a test plug to seal it, I'll do the same. Way to go. My only question is that I thought we were putting the vaporizer in line with the PCV valve so the intake air into the vaporizer came from the crankcase and the discharge from the vaporizer was going into the manifold. The way you have it set up I would think the engine would get too much air and maybe pop codes?

I appreciate the kind words. And I'm having a tough time understanding what exactly it is that your saying but I'll explain best I can. I'll follow one particle of air as it travels all the way through to explain.

The air first enters that small breather filter. The breather filter leads to a hose that goes to the bubbler stone at the bottom of the container. Once air exits the bubbler stone, it brings some of the vapor with it. The vapor then enters the small line at the top. That connection leads to a line that goes through both small tubes that are filled with stuffing to absorb the extra moisture. As air passes through these tubes, the moisture in the stuffing slowly dries and simply turns into vapor over time. The vapor then leaves the small tubes and follows a hose that is T-ed at the vacuum PVC valve line. So basically, the inlet to the vaporizer is simply from surrounding air, just as is my cold air filter right next to it. The outlet of the vaporizer eventually leads to the vacuum line, so the vaporizer is under constant vacuum to get maximum amount of vapor.

You can tell when there is a leak in your system because your idle rpm will be very high. When I had a leak in my old generator, the idle was around 900-1100 rpm and it would creep back and forth when the A/C compressor would turn on. This was an obvious sign of a leak so I ditched the old container and came up with this idea. You can tell when you have a good seal because your idle rpm will be slightly higher but still at a good pace. My idle went from about 600-650 rpm to 700-750 rpm. Not much of an increase and it's definitely not detrimental to my gas mileage because I had a significant increase in the past. The vaporizer creates enough backpressure on its own to prevent loss of vacuum. If you have too much air going through from the get-go, you can always stuff the lines with an absorbent material like cotton or with regular paper towels. Suction will still exist, and it will prevent your car from using up too much gas with a high idle rpm.

EDIT: I just re-read your post and that sounds like a very good idea. Simply keeping the air recirculating to keep the pressure the same. I'll keep testing this one and that seems like a good idea to test if you wouldn't mind trying it. I'm interested in the results. I'm also quite interested in possibly adding a second vaporizer to the air intake right after the air cleaner, or before it. This container would have an ultrasonic fogger to force the liquid to vapor, rather than relying on the vacuum from the intake manifold. I'll test my initial ideas and then expand on them with possibly the addition of this.

[Painless]

Bigapple,

I made some changes yesterday to my system which basically deliver my HHO to the vacuum but also allow my cleansing bubbler to act as a vapouriser as well.

Last night, I fitted a ball valve into the line from the bubbler to the vacuum and found it useful for 'tuning' the amount of vapour getting to my engine.

This is still new to me and I'm not sure how much is too much, but I'm working on it.

[Painless]

To input back to the 'putting the vapouriser in the loop' idea, as opposed to T'ing it off of the vacuum, I tried this today. There was too much vacuum and the vapouriser container wanted to collapse in on itself, but when I used the ball valve to lower the amount of vacuum the engine wasn't happy.

[Painless]

I should also add that the 'closed loop' vacuum threw a CEL code which I just looked up:

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0307

Number 7 cylinder misfire. :eek:

[bigapple]

Wow, those are pretty strange results, although I've never gotten a code thrown, especially a cylinder misfire. I had a container that seemed sturdy and gave it a try and the vacuum was quite intense on it and made it chug a little water. I tried my initial testing with a Food Saver vacuum-tight container and it stood up to everything and gave me my 4 mpg gain. Since I knew I needed something sturdy and air tight, I went ahead and got the PVC system set up. I really wish I had gotten a clear large PVC pipe though because I'm constantly wondering what it looks like although I know what's going on in there because when I take the cap off, I can see the bubbles start to fade, so the system is working.

I switched from clear line to fuel hose and this was a good idea. 1 Because the fuel hose stays much more open when under vacuum because its much tougher and can withstand 50 psi anyway. 2 The connections between the fuel hose and my vaporizer output and water catch are very snug and completely air tight, as opposed to the old clear hose flexing so much and causing small leaks to where my idle rpm climbed. 3 It generally looks much better and I'm thinking of changing it all to fuel hose but I don't have a long enough piece right now to be able to do that. Although I like having a small section of clear tubing so I can see if water is getting in if the water catch fails.

The testing phase to assure that isopropyl works, Continues...

[Boltazar]

Painless, I bet that was a bad wire that through the code. Doesn't it take 2 cycles to throw a code anyway. The vaporizer that bigapple is using will hold up to the vacuum of the engine with a in line installation. Heck, they use hose to direct the vacuum from the crankcase to the intake manifold, don't they. That 4" pvc should hold up.

[fisher]

I built a vapor system out of a piece of 1 1/4 pvc. It is about 10 inches long. I had to make a longer one as the violence of the bubbling sucked all the water out of the thing. So I made another 16 inches long, which is about as long as I can get to fit. It sucks over half the water out of it. I added the longer one and modified the shorter one by cutting the output hose off at the top so that it would be a overflow catcher. (It has two hoses, both go into the top and do not extend into the depths of the pipe at all.)

Today, inspired by painless, I filled the thing with alcohol. Drove 40 miles and checked it. Totally empty. All the alcohol dried out of it. Filled it with distilled water and will check the usage on that.

Im thinking I need a bigger diameter tank. Inch and a quarter allows bubbles to build up too high. I will have some data on how it affected my gas mileage after the next fill-up. But I can't afford the alcohol!!! ;-)

[bigapple]

Painless, I bet that was a bad wire that through the code. Doesn't it take 2 cycles to throw a code anyway. The vaporizer that bigapple is using will hold up to the vacuum of the engine with a in line installation. Heck, they use hose to direct the vacuum from the crankcase to the intake manifold, don't they. That 4" pvc should hold up.

I'll second that. The large diameter PVC piece I used does not flex at all. It is very tough and stands up to all conditions of the heavy vacuum.


I built a vapor system out of a piece of 1 1/4 pvc. It is about 10 inches long. I had to make a longer one as the violence of the bubbling sucked all the water out of the thing. So I made another 16 inches long, which is about as long as I can get to fit. It sucks over half the water out of it. I added the longer one and modified the shorter one by cutting the output hose off at the top so that it would be a overflow catcher. (It has two hoses, both go into the top and do not extend into the depths of the pipe at all.)

Today, inspired by painless, I filled the thing with alcohol. Drove 40 miles and checked it. Totally empty. All the alcohol dried out of it. Filled it with distilled water and will check the usage on that.

Im thinking I need a bigger diameter tank. Inch and a quarter allows bubbles to build up too high. I will have some data on how it affected my gas mileage after the next fill-up. But I can't afford the alcohol!!! ;-)

Yea, the alcohol dries quickly. If you add water, it dilutes it a bit and I believe it slows down the evaporation time of the alcohol (although I have no scientific evidence to back that). If you think the alcohol evaporates quickly, you would be shocked to see how fast some of the other materials I've used evaporate. Acetone and denatured alcohol don't take long at all. When you put them in water, the solution becomes foggy, and by the time you've driven about 30 miles, the solution is almost clear again, showing that a lot of it has evaporated.

[Painless]

Just to be clear, my system as it is setup now 'T'd off of the vacuum does not throw any codes and seems to work fine. I got the code when I put the system 'in-loop', i.e. not T'd off of the vacuum but inserted into the vacuum loop. To clarify further, with my ball valve full open it seemed to run OK, it was only when I tried to adjust the ball valve to stop floods of water gushing through that the cylinder misfire code was thrown. The engine did stumble quite hard even though the valve was never completely closed.

[bigapple]

Just to be clear, my system as it is setup now 'T'd off of the vacuum does not throw any codes and seems to work fine. I got the code when I put the system 'in-loop', i.e. not T'd off of the vacuum but inserted into the vacuum loop. To clarify further, with my ball valve full open it seemed to run OK, it was only when I tried to adjust the ball valve to stop floods of water gushing through that the cylinder misfire code was thrown. The engine did stumble quite hard even though the valve was never completely closed.

Your engine might be a bit stumbly restarting if you have water in the manifold or manifold cover that you cant see when you restart it. I had mine backfire one time and shoot off my hose at the PCV valve vacuum connection and it scared the crap out of me. If you get water in there, be sure its completely dried out before you rely on your engine running smoothly.

Designing a water catch/block is definitely the hardest part of this. I've found the best way to be adding another tube like the ones I showed in my pictures with a material inside to absorb the moisture. It's worked well.

I'm planning on buying a fogger soon to be able to check for leaks if I run it right next to the inlet on my vaporizer. Also, I'll see if the engine gets an adequate supply of vapor if I run a fogger. If I were to run a fogger in a solution with alcohol and water, it may make them both evaporate at the same rate. We'll see after I get one.

EDIT: Just ordered a fogger online for a total of 25.98, which is much better than the petsmart price of 59.99. Should be here pretty soon. Will post with pictures and such when it gets here.

[fisher]

Filled with gas today, 29MPG, which is average without the vapor system. So no improvement. Bigger pipe will be installed soon to keep more than 2 inches of water in the pipe. (As mentioned in a previous post, my inch and a quarter pipe gets almost all of the water sucked out it by the incredible amount of bubbles that are generated being sucked out of the pipe.)

[bigapple]

Alright so the fogger just arrived and first things to say - Man, this thing spits out some water vapor. I just need to find a container to put in it and be good to go.

Question though. The adapter for it is from 120VAC to 24VAC at 1.2 amps. Although I know my car can't put out 24 volts, do you guys think it would be harmful to run at at 12? Or do you think it would be harmful to run the positive and negative leads of the battery to the adapter? Don't want to mess this thing up because its 20 bucks but I still want to give this a shot.

[Painless]

Alright so the fogger just arrived and first things to say - Man, this thing spits out some water vapor. I just need to find a container to put in it and be good to go.

Question though. The adapter for it is from 120VAC to 24VAC at 1.2 amps. Although I know my car can't put out 24 volts, do you guys think it would be harmful to run at at 12? Or do you think it would be harmful to run the positive and negative leads of the battery to the adapter? Don't want to mess this thing up because its 20 bucks but I still want to give this a shot.

I wouldn't of thought that too low a voltage would be an issue, too high I would worry about. You need a small transformer to step up the voltage. Or perhaps even a small second battery to hook in series with the main for it?

[bigapple]

I wouldn't of thought that too low a voltage would be an issue, too high I would worry about. You need a small transformer to step up the voltage. Or perhaps even a small second battery to hook in series with the main for it?

I thought of using one of the cigarette lighter adapters for plugging in other things to run it. It converts form 12VAC to 110VAC I believe. That would be enough to run this little thing.

[HALS-GUNSMITHING]

I would also recomend a tranformer to step it up.

[fisher]

You mentioned it runs on 24 volts AC, a car uses 12 volts DC, and DC won't transform. A transformer doesn't alter DC. So you have a problem. Best answer is to get a small inverter and use that to provide 110 VAC to the thing, and allow it to transform the 110V to 24V as originally intended by the manufacturer.

[redneckgearhead34]

Yea I considered using Isopropyl but I wondered what exactly is the other 30%? Is it just more water? If so then the 50/50 would need to be offset a bit.

And you're right about the heat and it's been considered. I just wonder how exactly I can get it next to a radiator hose because the bottle would have to be suspended to be touching it.

And also since Isopropyl is more volatile than water and evaporates much faster, I think I might want to offset the 50/50 to maybe 70/30 Iso/Water.

What do you think?

I know it has been a while since I have been on the forum but I believe I am back now. To solve this problem you can put and extension on the line going into your heater core inside your truck. It is a fairly small hose so it will be fairly cheap and easy for the fittings.

[Painless]

Bigapple:

I've been thinking quite a bit lately about proper vaporization of fuel, this seems to be the key to more efficient combustion. Now, modifying our modern-ish fuel injected vehicles to inject vapor in the main fuel pulses would be a b***h to implement, then I started thinking back to your water vapor injection experiments.

Have you tried your vaporizer with *JUST* gasoline and pure acetone in it at the recommended 3oz to 10 gallons measure? My thought is that the acetone will help with vaporization of the gasoline and the engine vacuum will pull the gasoline vapors out of your vaporizer and into the intake, resulting in a decent power increase.

This would involve storing a small amount of gasoline under your hood, but reasonable safety guards with respect to the container could be used.

Russ.

[Boltazar]

Will the ECM learn that the mixture is rich, initially and cut back on the injector pulse? Can it cut back that much and not pop codes? how long will the fuel last in the vaporizer?

[Painless]

I'm thinking that the fuel that comes through in vapor forum will combust almost at 100%, this will provide extra power in addition to the main burn. However, the PCM will not be considering anything more than the amount of fuel that *IT* added. There will be no extra oxygen in the exhaust as a result of the vapor burn, therefore, I'm thinking that the vapor burning may even trigger a too rich condition? ...in the very least, it will allow smaller throttle openings.

Just my theory, but we will find out.

[Boltazar]

BE CAREFULL and let us know how you make out

[Painless]

BE CAREFULL and let us know how you make out

Always, to both statements.

[bigapple]

I see what you're saying. I've lately been experimenting with a fogger inside of my vaporizer. I had stuffed one of the tubes with paper towels to absorb some moisture and that actually made less air flow and caused my gas mileage to go back to normal. So I'm trying to find the sweet spot with the amount in there to let vapor in, and since I added the fogger, I'm making much more vapor. Since the isopropyl already evaporates fast, I'm basically speeding up the water evaporation rate and the extra disturbance in the surface may help the isopropyl to evaporate a bit quicker to even it out. So far it seems good. If this test is successful, I'll let everyone know. If not, I'm going to try leaving that container alone, and make a separate one with the fogger that goes only to the intake and not to the vacuum line. Then I'll try a combination of both, then only one, etc. to see which provides the best results.

After all this, I may try the acetone in the gas tank. I've also heard that xylene in the gas tank helps the vaporization and I have a bunch of that lying around. So, once I figure out the best mix, I'll try to implement the other chemicals to find the best sweet spot.

[szekwun]

i have tried the vapor too. dunno the result yet. but i not connet to air cleaner. because dont know why my air cleaner cant creat vacuum. any ideal?

[bigjim56]

This vapor injection is a good idea. I read the earlier posting that said "Has anyone even tried this?". Well to my credit (and many others I would presume), a water4gas design is pretty much a vaporizer system. Not much HHO is produced, but the bubbling, combined with the vacuum and the elevated temperatures helps create the water vapor injection discussed here.

I've seen the performance increase generated by this idea, and the accompanying cleaner exhaust emissions makes it clear to me that this is the way to go, for me. However, I want all that + mpg increases, so I'm on my way to a dry cell application. So far, mpg's increases have been minimal.

Vapor injection alone is good if only for the performance and cleaner exhaust.
Any mpg's gained are a bonus.

My 2 cents.

bigjim56

[lowride]

Hi guys. Have anyone of you have any benefits on watervapour injection yet?

I'm interested in discussing this, because I have tried with HHO over a year without reliable results, but when I finally thought I should try with only water, I got results.

If you are still interested in discussing this, I want to know how you have made your systems, and I will explain mine. Together we can find even better solutions :-)

By the way, have anyone of you tried with a combination on watervapour injection and HHO at the same time? I want to try that as well, but it would be interesting to know if someone had tried it already.

[HHO BLASTER]

Hi guys. Have anyone of you have any benefits on watervapour injection yet?

I'm interested in discussing this, because I have tried with HHO over a year without reliable results, but when I finally thought I should try with only water, I got results.

If you are still interested in discussing this, I want to know how you have made your systems, and I will explain mine. Together we can find even better solutions :-)

By the way, have anyone of you tried with a combination on watervapour injection and HHO at the same time? I want to try that as well, but it would be interesting to know if someone had tried it already.

Dry HHO with distilled water vapor, sure why not try it

[redrat100]

Hi guys. Have anyone of you have any benefits on watervapour injection yet?

Yes. 5.5% mpg increase (2l VW Jetta). I took a vacation from HHO to test a fogger set up similarly as discussed earlier in this thread. It does require 24 vac. A cigarete lighter inverter for a laptop is adequate to power it. The fog is ducted to a fitting just before the throttle body, same place I had my HHO going. No efie, map tweeker or any other ecu mods. No c.e.l. lights either.

I also had a patent search done. They discovered that this fogger water vapor injection was patented in 1997, number 5671701. It describes exactly what some of us have been doing. US patents are good for 20 years. So, it won't be public domain intil 2017.

Now knowing that, I started building a H2 only cell. I'll post results in a different thread.

[Stevo]

Yes. 5.5% mpg increase (2l VW Jetta). I took a vacation from HHO to test a fogger set up similarly as discussed earlier in this thread. It does require 24 vac. A cigarete lighter inverter for a laptop is adequate to power it. The fog is ducted to a fitting just before the throttle body, same place I had my HHO going. No efie, map tweeker or any other ecu mods. No c.e.l. lights either.

I also had a patent search done. They discovered that this fogger water vapor injection was patented in 1997, number 5671701. It describes exactly what some of us have been doing. US patents are good for 20 years. So, it won't be public domain intil 2017.

Now knowing that, I started building a H2 only cell. I'll post results in a different thread.

WOW! 24 Volts AC?! Yikes! Why not just scratch all that craziness and use vacuum?

http://hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=34765&postcount=9

[redrat100]

[QUOTE=Stevo;34769]WOW! 24 Volts AC?! Yikes! Why not just scratch all that craziness and use vacuum?

Sweet set up Stevo! 25%/14% gains, cool! Good pics and video too. To answer: I did consider a vacuum set up like yours but I thought that the fogger would produce more water vapor / droplets for better mpg gains. Yours is much simpler. My fogger is a little high maintenance. The transducer needs to be taken apart and cleaned every several hundred miles and cleaned or else it stops working. I think I will port it into the manifold next instead of before the throttle body.

[Helz_McFugly]

stevo, that is a nice simple setup. well done.

[Stevo]

Rat,

I like it a lot. Easy to fill with the extra hose supplied. All I have to do is fill a cup with water, stick one hose in the water and apply a small short burst of suction to the other vacuum teed hose and it auto-siphons into the tanks. I don't really ever have to open the lids unless I need to add/remove something. I also set the base ignition timing to 18 BTDC which is 2 degrees over the stock setting of 16 and tried out 87 octane then 89. I do have to say that on my car 89 octane and 18 BTDC works best so far as I get the best mix of fuel efficiency and drivability. The normal neighborhood when considering fuel efficiency gains with WVI and no forced fuel trim is 30% +/- 10% from what I have gathered.

HHO

The best part overall is you don't use any parasitic devices to generate the water vapor, so no power loss from that which is the biggest downfall HHO has and the very reason most 'scientists' have labeled HHO boosters as completely impractical. I do, however, want to add HHO to the main vacuum tube just after the vacuum tee and preceded by a one-way check valve. I have successfully derived a cell that does 6.2 - 6.7 MMW (as we call it) with considerably low visible water vapor output. For my engine, I would just do 1LPM of QUALITY HHO... not that crazy high water vapor content infected stuff that so many experimenters call 7.3+ MMW. XD

Quality DOES matter 100% of the time with HHO. If ur going to use 15 amps to create 1 LPM and 35% of that output is water vapor by volume then wouldn't it make more sense to just go with the unit that creates 750 ml at 9 amps and has a 15% water vapor ratio?

[Stevo]

[QUOTE=Stevo;34769]WOW! 24 Volts AC?! Yikes! Why not just scratch all that craziness and use vacuum?

Sweet set up Stevo! 25%/14% gains, cool! Good pics and video too. To answer: I did consider a vacuum set up like yours but I thought that the fogger would produce more water vapor / droplets for better mpg gains. Yours is much simpler. My fogger is a little high maintenance. The transducer needs to be taken apart and cleaned every several hundred miles and cleaned or else it stops working. I think I will port it into the manifold next instead of before the throttle body.

My quote is a little late but oh well... This thing is basically like putting your car on a reallllly great water bong that would almost certainly clog up completely after 5 uses. But when it's just water and 3% isopropyl or methanol it's wonderful. I don't suggest methanol btw. Just go to Costco or Sam's (i'm referencing Dallas, TX retailers) and get a 2 pack of the 32 oz bottles for approximately $4. Since the alcohol is typically 70% pure noting the other 30% is distilled water :), I add 1 - 1.5 Tbsp of Isopropyl Alcohol to attain an approximate 3% ratio. I will take a pic of my spark plugs sometime soon to help analyze and determine the perceived effects over the past 2000 miles.