Winter Is Almost here!!

[redneckgearhead34]

Since winter is almost here in NC and maybe already there in some places I have decided to do some testing on how well electrolyte solutions do in sub-freezing temps.

I am going to make small solutions and stick them in my freezer which gets down to at least 14 degrees F and see what happens.

For electrolytes I am going to use KOH and Baking Soda. I will have to get some NaOH since a lot of people use it.

[fisher]

cool, a timely experiment.

[candyman55]

I use KOH in my generator and have tested it in the freezer. My mixture is 2 Lbs. of KOH per galon of water and at 14 degrees it don't freeze.

I thought that my freezer only went to 14 deg. because it was old, is this the normal temp?

I would really like some colder results cause it gets much colder than that here sometimes.

[ridelong]

I tested 2 1/2 tsp KOH in 1/2 gal. distilled. Froze solid in the storage freezer.

[Farmercal]

Has anyone figured out a way of keeping the electrolyte from freezing during the winter? What about last year? What did most folks here do during last winter?

[redneckgearhead34]

Ok I went out and checked my containers of electrolyte mixture in my freezer.

I had 2 tsp of baking soda/gallon and 2tsp of KOH/gallon. My freezer rubns at about 13 degrees F.

They were both frozen solid. I am going to double the concentration and then see what happens.

[Smith03Jetta]

All I really know is that I will not be putting any alcohol under the hood of my car.

[redneckgearhead34]

All I really know is that I will not be putting any alcohol under the hood of my car.

Ya drinking it is the perferable thing to do

[ridelong]

I set up a resistive heater and insulated my gen.. If interested, see the schematic posted on the "Temperatuer feedback pwm" thread.

It monitors the gen temp, and turns on the heater if the gen goes below 38 degrees F.

[Smith03Jetta]

That sounds like the thing to do. I'm looking along those lines too. I'm thinking about a sticker/heating element. You can cut them to size with scissors, stick on some wires, stick on a thermostat and controller and forget about it.

[Boltazar]

windshield washer fluid?????

[ShowMeHHO]

Has anyone ever tried this ..From what I understand it is a organic antifreeze ..It is used in make up, it is a de-icer for aircrafts ,Rv winterizing,etc
I am not sure what effect it will have on electrlizer but thought it would be worth testing to see .

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propylene-glycol-d_363.html

[John79]

You may need to increase your KOH a bit in colder temps. I have a drum of degreaser outside that has KOH in it and it has never frozen even in single digit temps. Baking soda should work too it is a form of salt but too much of it causes high amps and lots of heat.

[fisher]

Do you have concerns of the electric heaters running your battery down?

[bigapple]

Has anyone ever tried this ..From what I understand it is a organic antifreeze ..It is used in make up, it is a de-icer for aircrafts ,Rv winterizing,etc
I am not sure what effect it will have on electrlizer but thought it would be worth testing to see .

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propylene-glycol-d_363.html

I like that idea. I think the fact that its organic is good. It won't cause any foreign, unwanted substance in the engine. Good find. Any idea where this stuff can be purchased?

[ridelong]

fisher,

The heater I used only draws 160 milliamps. That is about like a dome light in a car.

The generator is insulated with 1 inch closed cell foam.

I keep my car in the garage at home, so it never gets freezing there.

The only place it will turn on is at work, and that is after it cools down from 150 deg. F that the HHO pwm controller is set to.

So, I'm not too worried.

[ShowMeHHO]

I like that idea. I think the fact that its organic is good. It won't cause any foreign, unwanted substance in the engine. Good find. Any idea where this stuff can be purchased?

Here is one place but they are not great on shipping

http://www.chemistrystore.com/product.cgi?product=64138&group=

I read that the pharmacy can get it and also MFA sales it in gallons for 23.00 maybe ...It is used to treat cattle .......

[Riddler250]

I like that idea. I think the fact that its organic is good. It won't cause any foreign, unwanted substance in the engine. Good find. Any idea where this stuff can be purchased?

RV antifreez can be found at walmart or any auto parts store. We use it in the pipes for the pool during winter. Its safe to just let it go in the pool when we opened it. I think they even use it in pools with ionizers. Should be funrun small amounts

[mytoyotasucks]

Ok i tried gas line antifreeze and it slows down production.

going to try windshield washer fluid next.

and than rv antifreeze.

[HHOinKY]

Keep me updated. It will probably be cold when I get my cell in so I'll have to use whatever works.

Mitch

[bigapple]

Anyone think of adding a simple alcohol like Xylene, Isopropyl, Toulene, or Acetone? I'm using these for my vaporizer testing and they have a very low freezing point.

[richardb200373]

So what about alcohol at 20% mix?

[H2OPWR]

I live in Alaska. If anyone on this forum has to worry about freezing I do. I use 20% alcohol in the electrolite. If you are worried about alcohol under your hood just remember that yoiur windshield washer fluid is 20% alcohol.

[richardb200373]

H20PWR, do you use regular store bought alcohol from pharmacy area or are you using denatured alcohol. I am getting ready to test regular alcohol, rv antifreeze water line treatment and if I can get the denatured at the hardware store I'm going to right now, gonna try that too. Another question or two... Do you see a drop in production at all? What is the coldest you've been able to test at if you know. Thanks in advance. I live in northern va and my mom is in upstate ny so getting ready for winter. Thanks.

[richardb200373]

One other thing to add.... I just mixed the alcohol and antifreeze, I'm a little concerned about the antifreeze making foam or bubbles, it bubbled up a little when I poured my koh mix in.

[H2OPWR]

H20PWR, do you use regular store bought alcohol from pharmacy area or are you using denatured alcohol. I am getting ready to test regular alcohol, rv antifreeze water line treatment and if I can get the denatured at the hardware store I'm going to right now, gonna try that too. Another question or two... Do you see a drop in production at all? What is the coldest you've been able to test at if you know. Thanks in advance. I live in northern va and my mom is in upstate ny so getting ready for winter. Thanks.

I use 99% Isopropyl Alcohol at 20% volume and It has never frozen on me. Last winter was the first winter that I used it. The coldest it got here was 28 below zero and stayed that way for three weeks. I did ruin one bubbler as I did not think ahead and forgot to add alcohol to it. It froze and cracked the container. I have never measured the difference in production with and without alcohol added. I have just finished building a new very large gen for my 2008 Nissan frontier. I will be doing extensive testing before installing it. One of the tests will be with and without alcohol volume tests. I will start a new thread with all the results.

[H2OPWR]

One other thing to add.... I just mixed the alcohol and antifreeze, I'm a little concerned about the antifreeze making foam or bubbles, it bubbled up a little when I poured my koh mix in.

I would like to see what happens but am unwilling to take the risk of adding anti-freeze to my generator. Alcohol is less expensive and did a great job for me.

[hydrotinkerer]

Antifreeze has electolysis inhibitors added to it. I don't know how much it will affect gas production. On the other hand don't know what alcohol does either.

[H2OPWR]

windshield washer fluid?????

Many washer fluid's have some detergent in them as well as alcohol and distilled water. I would be afraid of soap bubbles

[bigapple]

Just add acetone or Isopropyl alcohol. Simple chemical, simple properties, and no extra impurities. Thats it

[Riddler250]

I like the idea of RV antifreez cuz it won't the engine, but it won't burn. Alcohol won't freeze and it burns burns hot.

[richardb200373]

Ok guys, here it is, I did 20% of both rv antifreeze and regular pharmacy alcohol (70%), rv antifreeze froze and alcohol did'nt freeze a bit! I have a meat thermometer that goes to 0*, it said 22* when I pulled them out, but the freezer setting was on 0*, kenmore piece of crap maybe. Also, bought denature alcohol, did'nt freeze test but ran test in my cell at 20%; lowered my output by 60% or so, not good. And it stunk like a stink bug if you know what I'm talking about. If the regular alcohol did'nt freeze at 20%, I'm gonna try 10% and then maybe 5%, don't want to put any more in my cell until I find the lowest freezing point. Anybody else got anything for this?

[VanHalen]

It has gotten under freezeing at night a couple times already, and getting up early to check my generator I found it wasn't frozen. I'm not sure if it just wasn't in the cold long enough, or if the heat took long enugh to dissapate that it didn't freeze. Anyway maybe just take out your generator at night? engine heat during the day would probably keep it from freezing. BUt then again, I'm in Kansas.

Cant do anymore test anyway. Was testing my bubbler as a flashback protector. It didn't work and blew the crap outa my generator with me about 2 feet away. Still can barely hear. Lucky I was using a pop off lid, so its all good.

[mytoyotasucks]

if u can get a pwm than keep a higher consentration of KOH - at least 20% by weight and it wont freeze easy.

[mytoyotasucks]

ok have figured out how to add a higher consentration of KOH without drawing so many amps with out a PWM, tried it last night.

== more spacing between plates until desired amps is aquired, i went to 30% KOH and over trippled my spacing and it still isnt frozen in my freezer after 7 hours.

and still able to only draw 24 amps.

I think thats pretty good.

[Atechguy]

Hi! There GUYs ,Well i have new Tero cell in now working Great, 11.9 amps , well because i'm in Canada EHH, i started thinking of the freezing temps on my cell 1 good thing i found thru googling on Noah and freezing , i found that if you have 20% solution that it lowers the freezing point of water from 32 f to 14 f or -10 celcius and they said 50 % is only -18 c so that helps those that are using Noah solution not to have to add as much isopropl alcohol whatever you are using . Sorry i didn't make any links just google Noah and freezing etc. I don't know what my solution is but i will try it in the freezer or someone else can.:D

[777Braveheart]

So do we have a decisive answer to this? Is the best option to use 20% Isopropyl Alcohol?

[mytoyotasucks]

So do we have a decisive answer to this? Is the best option to use 20% Isopropyl Alcohol?

I'm not. I'm going to use more KOH concentration.

[theramsey3]

ok have figured out how to add a higher consentration of KOH without drawing so many amps with out a PWM, tried it last night.

== more spacing between plates until desired amps is aquired, i went to 30% KOH and over trippled my spacing and it still isnt frozen in my freezer after 7 hours.

and still able to only draw 24 amps.

I think thats pretty good.


So do we have a decisive answer to this? Is the best option to use 20% Isopropyl Alcohol?


I'm not. I'm going to use more KOH concentration.
MYTOYOTASUCKS,
How big did you go on the plate spacing? How well is that working out for you? I am very interested with that thought and will certainly consider it when I finally build my dry cell.

[mytoyotasucks]

MYTOYOTASUCKS,
How big did you go on the plate spacing? How well is that working out for you? I am very interested with that thought and will certainly consider it when I finally build my dry cell.

i went to 5/16" spacing and over 20% KOH and will not freeze in a deep freeze. :cool:

also the cell is still wraped.

[Atechguy]

i went to 5/16" spacing and over 20% KOH and will not freeze in a deep freeze. :cool:

also the cell is still wraped.

My NoAH Is is similar in the freezer couple of days at -10 cel. not totally frozen semi, i don't know the % of noAh in my electrolyte , but looks like i said early that it reduces the freezing point lower. Want to get a hydrometer so i can measure my solution by specific gravity.