Need Help Low LPM

[NFryan]

Okayyyy after not have much results from my generator by way of MPG gains. I decieded to check how many LPM my unit is making (as per the advice given on here) It turns out im only making rounghly .25 LPM right now! I have a 7 plate smack booster style generator i think you guys call it? Its a water filter housing. I am running 2 tsp of baking soda to a gallon of water. I will be switching to lye soon i know baking soda is bad.. But upon seeing my low production now.. what can i do to boost it. The only thing i have not doe is check my amp draw. I need to get a multi meter...

Can anyone give me advice on getting this thing up and running better?

[Painless]

If you can provide some more information about your setup, pictures if you have them, we should definitely be able to help.

Specifically:

1) What is your wiring configuration? i.e. How many neutrals, negatives, positives and how are they connected and in what order.

2) What are you using as your plate gap, how big is the gap?

3) Any other information you can provide about the construction, a photo speaks a thousand words, would be useful.

[NFryan]

I will take a pictue and post it in 20 min or so.. I am very new to this and it is a kit i bought off ebay ( I hate to say) But i had to jump in sometime .. I believe it is 7 plates they are wall outlet stainless plates.. the water housing itself holds about 1/2 - 3/4 gallon of distilled... Pleased hold i will brb with a pic of the internals.

[mytoyotasucks]

also add how many amps it is drawing, how u have the wires running for ground and power.

[NFryan]

Well here ya go

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn292/NFryan28/photo3-1.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn292/NFryan28/photo2-2.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn292/NFryan28/photo6-1.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn292/NFryan28/photo4-1.jpg

[mytoyotasucks]

the plates look ok, not sure y the one has a bigger gap, but should hurt it much.

[Painless]

OK, from the pictures it looks like you are running -NN+NN-, this is the first big source of your problem. You're dividing 12 or more volts between 3 cells, 4+v per cell. This is wasting power and causing heat instead of production.

The first change you should make is to remove the positive feed from the middle and place it in place of the negative feed at one of the ends (discard the negative you replace). This will results in -NNNNN+ which will give you a more efficient system.

From your photo with the measure it looks like you have a 4/16" gap? This is big, it will produce but you will need a lot more catalyst. I would recommend reducing the gap to about 2/16" if you can. Remove the spacers between each plate (nylon nuts?) and replace them with something thinner, a nylon washer should work very well. Also, the strap of a cable tie will work well too, just make sure that the gap is consistent all along between the plates.

Start with these things and let us know the results, then we'll move on from there.

Good luck!

Russ.

[NFryan]

okay i will do it today.. How much more efficent will it get tho with this change? enough to bump it up from a crippled .25 LPM.. Im going to get to work

[Painless]

You should see an improvement, how much depends on a lot of factors. One step at a time is the best way to approach this.

[NFryan]

Thank you very much i just reassembled as you suggested and im going to test it now

[NFryan]

Well i reassembles and put the plates like you said . Now i turn i on and have next to no production... I had it on for 15 minutes and all i had was a few small bubbles... now im really at a loss
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn292/NFryan28/photo7-1.jpg

[NFryan]

Its just confusing now beacuse i used to get bubbles right away,.. Does it have anything to do with using new water in the unit.? Did it have to run longer?

[Painless]

What are you using as your power source?

[NFryan]

I have it wired to a 30 amp relay. + connects to relay - to the neg on the batter.. the relay is grounded and has a switch running to it.. So 12v power source.. I didnt have any vinegar to let the plates soak in... and i just refilled the unit.... 2tsp bakin soda to 1 gal water... Will production pickup to a normal pace after an hour or so? Man this stuff is frustrating,...

[Painless]

I would pull the plates out again and double-check for any shorts / bad connections. That setup should produce very well.

Also, try adding more baking soda and see if production eventually starts.

[Painless]

I would also add that I'm not familiar with baking soda as an electrolyte but that your previous config, although inefficient, would have started producing at a lower concentration of catalyst due to the higher voltage.

Add baking soda 1 tsp at a time and see if production starts, I would expect just a tsp or 2 of KOH to produce but I think the soda is a lot weaker.

[donnylynn]

I started out with a similar set as you and using baking soda. My plates were 2.5 x 6 inches, 316 stainless. My setup was +nnnnn-nnnnn+
Your last setup appears to be +nnnnn-.
This link shows the production I achieved using baking soda. The teaspoons of baking soda were for my generator which held about 2 quarts of distilled water. The time shown is minutes:seconds to fill a 500ml bottle with gas.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=801&d=1222223210
I have also noticed that production with this setup is highly dependent on the voltage applied to the cell and to the termperature as you can see from the data.
When I switched to Lye (NaOH) my production approximately doubled.

Also y cell used acrylic to seal the edges of the plates, as you can see from my avatar or at the link in my signature. This prevents leakage currents. You can do a search of this site for wrapping the cell or the "mummy cell" link (I think). to see what they did using switchplates.

Hope this helps.

[NFryan]

I started out with a similar set as you and using baking soda. My plates were 2.5 x 6 inches, 316 stainless. My setup was +nnnnn-nnnnn+
Your last setup appears to be +nnnnn-.
This link shows the production I achieved using baking soda. The teaspoons of baking soda were for my generator which held about 2 quarts of distilled water. The time shown is minutes:seconds to fill a 500ml bottle with gas.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=801&d=1222223210
I have also noticed that production with this setup is highly dependent on the voltage applied to the cell and to the termperature as you can see from the data.
When I switched to Lye (NaOH) my production approximately doubled.

Also y cell used acrylic to seal the edges of the plates, as you can see from my avatar or at the link in my signature. This prevents leakage currents. You can do a search of this site for wrapping the cell or the "mummy cell" link (I think). to see what they did using switchplates.

Hope this helps.

I went back threw checked all my connectons started with a new batch of water and baking soda ... Now i am making no gas what so ever.... the water does not even get warm after 15 minutes. Idk wtf happend or whats going on. It used to start to bubble within seconds now i have nothing

[NFryan]

I would also add that I'm not familiar with baking soda as an electrolyte but that your previous config, although inefficient, would have started producing at a lower concentration of catalyst due to the higher voltage.

Add baking soda 1 tsp at a time and see if production starts, I would expect just a tsp or 2 of KOH to produce but I think the soda is a lot weaker.


I was producing 250 L a min on 2 tsp per gallon. Now i filled the unit with the same water i had in the gallon.. and added another tsp to the unit.. I can see the water moving around and it becomes hazy. But no bubbling or fizzing. due to the plate reconfig do i need more soda... How long should it take for the water to heat up and electrolysis to being?

[mytoyotasucks]

I went back threw checked all my connectons started with a new batch of water and baking soda ... Now i am making no gas what so ever.... the water does not even get warm after 15 minutes. Idk wtf happend or whats going on. It used to start to bubble within seconds now i have nothing


try a new batch again, just use water to start and add baking soda(small amounts) at a time.

i think ur tripping ur 30 amp relay, and getting near no power.

[NFryan]

try a new batch again, just use water to start and add baking soda(small amounts) at a time.

i think ur tripping ur 30 amp relay, and getting near no power.



so is it safe to add baking soda with this unit open? how much would you expect it to take before i see some bubbling? Also i thought if i tripped the breaker i wouldnt be getting any power? Also as im adding baking soda when should i stop?

[Painless]

I would be surprised if that config could pull 30 amps, based on my own experiments. I think that the issue is that we still have a widish gap and need a stronger electrolyte to conduct current. Again, this is based on my own findings with similar configs and switch plate covers.

If you were pulling 30 amps or more then heat would be very apparent. strengthen up the baking soda a teaspoon at a time, it may take a fair amount of soda but I am sure you will see production as long as your connections are good.

[mytoyotasucks]

I was producing 250 L a min on 2 tsp per gallon. Now i filled the unit with the same water i had in the gallon.. and added another tsp to the unit.. I can see the water moving around and it becomes hazy. But no bubbling or fizzing. due to the plate reconfig do i need more soda... How long should it take for the water to heat up and electrolysis to being?

hazy is not always bad

and electolysis should start right away.

dont go by what was working before, always start with almost no catalyst and go from there, most plate configurations work differently.

thats y people get different output.

[mytoyotasucks]

so is it safe to add baking soda with this unit open? how much would you expect it to take before i see some bubbling? Also i thought if i tripped the breaker i wouldnt be getting any power? Also as im adding baking soda when should i stop?

adding baking soda as u go is ok, who else do u know how much u need.

and the best way to see whats happening is to have an amp meter so u know how much ur drawing.

and i dont try to go over 25 amps.

[NFryan]

well i added baking soda a tsp at a time till i saw what looked like something was happening.. The problem is it was around 11 tsp.. So yea im wayyyyyy off. It was producing ALOT of gas and my 30 amp relay didnt blow so IdK.. My amp meter i borrowed is acting up i guess becasue its saying im drawing no amps... the unit is a little was the wires outside are not at all. It looks like with tthat much in there it trippled gas production. Guess ill start over again tomorrw

[Painless]

This confirms that plate gap is still your problem, my suggestion is to find a way of bringing your gap down to about 0.040" or thereabouts. I used to use the strap of a zip tie between the plates and put a nylon bolt through to hold it together.

Higher gaps need a more conductive electrolyte to produce.

[NFryan]

This confirms that plate gap is still your problem, my suggestion is to find a way of bringing your gap down to about 0.040" or thereabouts. I used to use the strap of a zip tie between the plates and put a nylon bolt through to hold it together.

Higher gaps need a more conductive electrolyte to produce.

In the mean time is that much electrolyte a huge issue? Like can i still run it safely

[donnylynn]

NFryan
I noticed you said you were using a battery as your power source. As the battery discharges and the voltage changes, your production rate will change with this configuration. Al least that is my experience. for example, I am using a heavy duty battery charger for my power source. At the lowest range it puts out 11.5 volts and it took me 5 minutes 45 seconds to fill a half liter bottle. Kicking the range up to 12.95 volts, it took 2 1/2 minutes and on the high range, 14.1 volts it too a minute and a half. Everything was held constant in these comparisons including temperature and NaOH was my electrolyte. Remember I said earlier that for me, baking soda worked only half as well so it sounds like your results are comparable to mine.

[NFryan]

Thanks to everyone for your help today. I believe i got a better understanding and thats what this place is for. Im going to pick up lye tomorrow and an mutli meter that works. I will mess with it more.. Im hoping now i will finally see some noticablw gains mixed with my o2 spaces and maf efie... i will keep everyone posted..

[mytoyotasucks]

Thanks to everyone for your help today. I believe i got a better understanding and thats what this place is for. Im going to pick up lye tomorrow and an mutli meter that works. I will mess with it more.. Im hoping now i will finally see some noticablw gains mixed with my o2 spaces and maf efie... i will keep everyone posted..

instead of a cheap meter, pick up an aftermarket amp meter for a car, there cheaper and can handle more amps.

[NFryan]

Ok Im back again with more problems and in need of help.. Take take take i kno.. So .. i switched to lye today as well as shrunk my plate gap down.. I started with 1.5 tsp of lye to a gallon of water... I was producing about .5L a min.. So i added another 1/2 tsp of lye straight to my water filter housing.... Mistake mistake,,. Well i drove a while and i notices alot of heat... And i melted the pos terminal on my housing now... If i had stuck o the 1.5 tsp and left it would the pace of production picked up over time. I only let it go 15 min or so when i initially tested it... And my next question is where can i get another filter housing cap and about how much will it run me?

[NFryan]

Housing want as melted as i thought...... Fixed it... Idk i guess ill stick with it running the 1.5 tsp lye to a gallon of water... Does production get better the longer the gen is ran? At 15 min im getting approx .5 L a min.. After an hour or so can that go up to .75 or even 1 LPM>?

[Painless]

Did it melt around where the terminals are? If so, then you can double check how tight the connections are. A good electrical contact is the key here, lose connections will heat up and suck amps in the process. You might also want to see if they terminals are just straight through the plastic or if any sort of rubber gasket has been used. If not, you should look into some way of keeping some high temp resistant insulation, like rubber grommets, around the connections to insulate them from the plastic.

[NFryan]

Did it melt around where the terminals are? If so, then you can double check how tight the connections are. A good electrical contact is the key here, lose connections will heat up and suck amps in the process. You might also want to see if they terminals are just straight through the plastic or if any sort of rubber gasket has been used. If not, you should look into some way of keeping some high temp resistant insulation, like rubber grommets, around the connections to insulate them from the plastic.


Yea thats what i did when i took it apart i put rubber grommets and washers to seal up where the pvc melted a bit

But i had a question for u specifically since u help me out rebuilding it, I got my gaps down to your suggested 2./16 ths.. Now running 1.5 tsp lye and distilled vinegar in the bubbler im up to prob a little more than 1/2 LPM after running it for 15 min... If i ran it longer would my production numbers been higher? I am gonna need about 1 LPM to see a change on a 2.5 L 4cyl engine probably correct?

[hydrotinkerer]

Do you have an amp meter to measure your gens amp draw? On a new gen if you condition or breakin your gen first it will produce better.

[NFryan]

I have this clamp style amp meter .. But the F'n this always read 1 or 0 after i clamp it arounf the power or ground... When my housing melted a bit up top i blew a 25 amp fuse .... apparently its not drawing 1 or 0.. Ill have to buy one tomorrow im getting sick of this guessing game

[NFryan]

SOooo today i run the generator on my way to work for approx an hour and a half. No problems my gas mileage i could tell already was better than normal on my 55 mile commute... So then while out on the road for another hour today i see my fuel gage going down faster on the highway and i pull over to see why. THE F'N THING boiled over. My bubbler had no vinegar in it and i had to drain water out my air filter tube... WTF is going on i only had 1.5 tsp of lye to 1 gallon of water. why is it over heating and boiling... I refilled it with 1 tsp of lye to a gallon of water and im trying it again now... Im not making much gas anymore though

[Painless]

Heat can be a major drawback of an open bath design, current leaks around your plates causing excess heat and thermal runaway.

Wrapping your plate setup with an insulator would help. Some people use plastic wrap others have used a plastic bottle and heat shrinked it to fit the plates. Naturally, you need to make sure electrolyte can still get to the plates and gas can get out.

These issues are why I have switched to dry cells.

[NFryan]

i have seen this in other posts as well im just not getting the concept.. I have outlet covers. I want to wrap the whole bunch vertically and the gas escapes out the sides? Or horizontally and gas gets out the top? And i wrap the whole bundle of them together as one? And why would my vinegar in the bubbler keep getting sucked into my housing. Its getting annoying ive been trying hard to get this to work and be reliable thus far im thinking is not possible.. This morning was my first positive experience MPG wise.. untill it boiled over then sucked back onto the housing.... I am making good LPM using 2 tsp of lye... but the heat is killing me.. Im almost up to a 1 LPM at 2 tsp per gallon... IF you could point me in the right direction on the plate wrapping i would much appreciate it... YOu have thus far and thanks again ...

[NFryan]

anyone there.......... bueller? ........bueller?

[scrode]

when I first started, my gen would heat up and then when I would shut it off it would suck back in just like yours does. To solve the the problem, I got the heat down to where runaway thermal break down would not happen and then put a oneway check valve in the vacuum line to slow or stop the sucking. it seems to be caused by the expanding water and gases caused by the heat, when cooled, contract back and cause a slight pressure drop in the gen resulting in back flow to the gen. So far it seems to have worked.
about wrapping. I use a rubber mastic tape (home Depot) . I put a small strip up both sides then wrap around from bottom to top leaving bottom and top open to allow gas flow. so far it has held up well and doesn't come unwrapped( you can secure the end with a zip tie if needed)
Good luck
Scott

[NFryan]

when I first started, my gen would heat up and then when I would shut it off it would suck back in just like yours does. To solve the the problem, I got the heat down to where runaway thermal break down would not happen and then put a oneway check valve in the vacuum line to slow or stop the sucking. it seems to be caused by the expanding water and gases caused by the heat, when cooled, contract back and cause a slight pressure drop in the gen resulting in back flow to the gen. So far it seems to have worked.
about wrapping. I use a rubber mastic tape (home Depot) . I put a small strip up both sides then wrap around from bottom to top leaving bottom and top open to allow gas flow. so far it has held up well and doesn't come unwrapped( you can secure the end with a zip tie if needed)
Good luck
Scott


Do you have any pics or know where i can find some to see what the wrapping looks like.. Im still not gettingit.. thanks for the help tho

[scrode]

the idea is that your covering up the whole cell unit so that only the bottom and the top are exposed so nothing can get out of the sides, or your insulating the side edges so that the electricity wont jump the edges of the plates.causing a loss of electricity going through the plates(or in other words going around the plates)wrapping is just taping the unit to insulate it from the electrolyte on the side edges.

Ill try and get a pic

[NFryan]

the idea is that your covering up the whole cell unit so that only the bottom and the top are exposed so nothing can get out of the sides, or your insulating the side edges so that the electricity wont jump the edges of the plates.causing a loss of electricity going through the plates(or in other words going around the plates)wrapping is just taping the unit to insulate it from the electrolyte on the side edges.

Ill try and get a pic

I get ya now... Thanks

[scrode]

my pleasure:D

Scott

[NFryan]

my pleasure:D

Scott
I rebuilt my generator yesterday. i wrapped the sides with plastic a zip tied it on.. It can now handle more electrolyte and is staying noticably cooler. No boil over yet on my hour ride to work...I will come on here later and post any mileage gains.. Im making roughly 3/4 - 1 LPM Now

[NFryan]

Well i wrapped the cells got production up.. Moved my bubbler... But the vinegar keeps getting sucked into the bubbler causing production to slow to almost nothing.. Think im at a loss... Im not getting anywhere,,,..

[mytoyotasucks]

is ur bubbler water level the same hieght as the cell??

[NFryan]

is ur bubbler water level the same hieght as the cell??


Na my bubbler is lower than the cell... Its driving me nuts. I get good production. The thing heats up and after an hour or so i check the bubbler.. The vinegar is half or all gone... And the cell is producing like half the HHO. So im thinking its sucking back in and screwing up my electrolyte....

[Painless]

Two things:

1) Place your bubbler higher than your cell.

2) This is a common issue, the cell heats up and then when it cools it needs to draw in air / matter from somewhere.... your bubbler is first in line. Install a one way check valve between the cell and the bubbler.

[NFryan]

Two things:

1) Place your bubbler higher than your cell.

2) This is a common issue, the cell heats up and then when it cools it needs to draw in air / matter from somewhere.... your bubbler is first in line. Install a one way check valve between the cell and the bubbler.

Ok i will try to find one tomorrow and give it a go again.. The only thing is that the bubbler vinegar seems to be getting sucked up alot during normal use.. not just when its turned off... But the check valve seems like it would be a good fix.. I think im going to put electrolyte in my bubbler 2 morrow just to try it out. If it sucks it back in atleast my production wont be at a stand still. O yea i never asked this should my cell be filled to like the very top.. As of now i have been leaving like a 1.5 inch gap uptop where there is no water or electrlyte but the plates are still submerged,.. Thanks,.. Ill keep trying

[mytoyotasucks]

Two things:

1) Place your bubbler higher than your cell.

2) This is a common issue, the cell heats up and then when it cools it needs to draw in air / matter from somewhere.... your bubbler is first in line. Install a one way check valve between the cell and the bubbler.

i always forget the check valve .