Does hho work?

[Scooterdog]

Sure, it will work. But, the problem I see (I have a degree in Automotive Technology, 3 months from my Masters) is that 99.9% of the people making claims, are just clueless as to how things work.

Bullshit myths:

1. Engine has Vacuum.

2. Restricting air flow decreases o2.

3. An "Oxygen Sensor" detects oxygen

4. Leaning an engine by o2 sensor will do you good.(Not off idle it won't)

5. hooking up some handheld device to check mpg after screwing with the reading to the computer is PROOF that you are getting better mpg.(Dead f-n wrong! If you put fake info in, you get fake info back.)

Nobody seems to want to talk about such things as the VSS, CPS, and the like. Nobody address's how you will need to adjust your timing, which you won't be doing on an OBD II anytime soon.

I'm not saying hho is good or bad, I'm saying there are alot of piss ignorant people making outragouse claims, that are nothing more than bs.

If you have a little common sense, and some education, you just may get some results. Buying EFI'S (Whatever they call the poppycock) "O2 ENHANCERS" and what not is nothing but a waste of money. Snake oil and false hope.

Talk to someone who knows if you don't. Go talk to an Automotive engineer, someone who graduated from a reputable school. Don't waste your time looking shit up on the net, most of it is inaccurate and will just cause you wasted time and money, kinda like chasing the "rabbit down the hole", you better damn well know what else is down there before you stick you head in that hole. ;)

[Riddler250]

Nobody seems to want to talk about such things as the VSS, CPS, and the like. Nobody address's how you will need to adjust your timing, which you won't be doing on an OBD II anytime soon.
Actually Scooterdog there is a thread on here discussing timing, Somewhere, i cant find it right now. As for the efie, the o2 sensor is one of the factors in how much fuel is delivered to the engine. You dont need to put false information in to figure mpg. so the efie or any other computer modification wont give you a false reading if you dont use the computer to figure mpg. just do simple math and figure how many miles were driven to how much fuel was consumed.

[Scooterdog]

Actually Scooterdog there is a thread on here discussing timing, Somewhere, i cant find it right now. As for the efie, the o2 sensor is one of the factors in how much fuel is delivered to the engine. You dont need to put false information in to figure mpg. so the efie or any other computer modification wont give you a false reading if you dont use the computer to figure mpg. just do simple math and figure how many miles were driven to how much fuel was consumed.

Good luck adjusting it, and let me know when the engine shit's the bed.

Only at an idle my friend.

Now you're talking my kind of talk. Nevertheless, if you believe in poppycock long enough, it will become fact for you, but not everyone else.

I've seen no proof on any boards. Seen some claims that are just horseshit, that's about it.

[Riddler250]

Good luck adjusting it, and let me know when the engine shit's the bed.

Only at an idle my friend.

Now you're talking my kind of talk. Nevertheless, if you believe in poppycock long enough, it will become fact for you, but not everyone else.

I've seen no proof on any boards. Seen some claims that are just horseshit, that's about it.

What does the vehicle speed sensor have to do with it? I have never heard that issue addressed on this forum or any other forum. I am more than willing to listen to your suggestions. Instead of calling everything poppycock and throwing around a masters degree why dont you add to the discussions on how to make it better, thats what this site is about, If it was about being the biggest douche, Then you would get some kind of award, but its not,so you get nothing. I don't care if you have a masters degree in auto tech or are a short order cook. everyone on here seems to have seen proof of HHO efie's or o2/maf/map mods increasing mpg in some way (I agree 50% sounds like bs)

[Scooterdog]

What does the vehicle speed sensor have to do with it? I have never heard that issue addressed on this forum or any other forum. I am more than willing to listen to your suggestions. Instead of calling everything poppycock and throwing around a masters degree why dont you add to the discussions on how to make it better, thats what this site is about, If it was about being the biggest douche, Then you would get some kind of award, but its not,so you get nothing. I don't care if you have a masters degree in auto tech or are a short order cook. everyone on here seems to have seen proof of HHO efie's or o2/maf/map mods increasing mpg in some way (I agree 50% sounds like bs)

There ya go. I already told you, so read slowly, unplug that VSS and see what happens. I don't care what you've done with the "o2 sensor", you are not making a difference off idle.

I've seen no proof whatsoever. If you can prove it, there is a group that will pay you a million bucks, even the great OZZY FREEDOM turned it down. Wonder why? :rolleyes:

[resago]

Sure, it will work. But, the problem I see (I have a degree in Automotive Technology, 3 months from my Masters) is that 99.9% of the people making claims, are just clueless as to how things work.

Bullshit myths:

1. Engine has Vacuum.

semantics, not even outerspace has a pure vacuum.

2. Restricting air flow decreases o2.

if the cylinder doesn't fill to normal volume under atmospheric pressure, everything is reduced. If I restrict your breathing to a straw, are you still getting the same amount of air?

3. An "Oxygen Sensor" detects oxygen

indirectly,yeah. close enough.

4. Leaning an engine by o2 sensor will do you good.(Not off idle it won't)

in what conditions and what are the desired results?

5. hooking up some handheld device to check mpg after screwing with the reading to the computer is PROOF that you are getting better mpg.(Dead f-n wrong! If you put fake info in, you get fake info back.)


If you monitor the injector rate and pressure vs the odometer, you get accurate MPG.

Nobody seems to want to talk about such things as the VSS, CPS, and the like. Nobody address's how you will need to adjust your timing, which you won't be doing on an OBD II anytime soon.

You don't believe the computer controls the timing?

I'm not saying hho is good or bad, I'm saying there are alot of piss ignorant people making outragouse claims, that are nothing more than bs.

talk about claims, you have yet to back up ANYTHING you said, weather accurate or inaccurate. did you take physics and chemistry at that trade school you went to?

If you have a little common sense, and some education, you just may get some results. Buying EFI'S (Whatever they call the poppycock) "O2 ENHANCERS" and what not is nothing but a waste of money. Snake oil and false hope.

proof? explaination in terms of physics, programming, electronics please!

Talk to someone who knows if you don't. Go talk to an Automotive engineer, someone who graduated from a reputable school.

you mean these trade schools that teach you the what but not the how and why?

Don't waste your time looking shit up on the net, most of it is inaccurate and will just cause you wasted time and money, kinda like chasing the "rabbit down the hole", you better damn well know what else is down there before you stick you head in that hole. ;)


anything on the net can be verified. just because it is easily referenced does not mean its fooey.

If the air we breath had a higher O2 content, most scientist believe we would be larger and plants would be larger.

[Riddler250]

There ya go. I already told you, so read slowly, unplug that VSS and see what happens. I don't care what you've done with the "o2 sensor", you are not making a difference off idle.

I've seen no proof whatsoever. If you can prove it, there is a group that will pay you a million bucks, even the great OZZY FREEDOM turned it down. Wonder why? :rolleyes:

doesnt the speed sensor just tell the computer that its moving? without a smart ass answer i would like to know how it manipulates fuel consumption. or do you know?

[Scooterdog]

doesnt the speed sensor just tell the computer that its moving? without a smart ass answer i would like to know how it manipulates fuel consumption. or do you know?

Without it, the vehicle thinks its at idle, not moving, no timing adjustment. You can drive it, but it will miss and drink gas like no tomarow. The o2 sensors don't do anything even though your pumping almost raw gas out the exhaust. Does this help you?

[resago]

could you post a pseudo code equation for where the vss is used, along with the other sensor reading.

Ex. O2S + VSS - MAP = Inj Pulse width

etc..
obviously, it will be referencing lookup tables as well.

[resago]

VSS, vehicle speed would only be usefull to engage a govenor.

Engine Load, MAP/MAF, Temp, and O2 are much more useful.

VSS is dependant on what gear you are in.

explain EXACTLY how VSS is useful.

if you meant to say RPM, then that is different.

[Scooterdog]

VSS, vehicle speed would only be usefull to engage a govenor.

Engine Load, MAP/MAF, Temp, and O2 are much more useful.

VSS is dependant on what gear you are in.

explain EXACTLY how VSS is useful.

if you meant to say RPM, then that is different.

You are wrong. The VSS tells the computer you are moving, without it, you are at a super rich mixture(idle) and your timing will not advance.

Don't believe me? go unplug it. It's a fact. None of the devices you mention will help you without it. The MAP/MAF, TEMP, AND O2 have nothing to do with timing. The o2 sensor will not compensate for the addtional hydrocarbons present.

[Farmercal]

scooterdog, are you insinuating that people on these or other boards are disconnecting the VSS? I haven't heard anyone even talk about it until this post. Also, if the O2 sensor doesn't have anything to do with gas used, then why did I get poor gas mileage when my 02 sensor went bad? As soon as I replaced it my gas mileage went back to normal (this was a few years ago).

[Scooterdog]

scooterdog, are you insinuating that people on these or other boards are disconnecting the VSS? I haven't heard anyone even talk about it until this post. Also, if the O2 sensor doesn't have anything to do with gas used, then why did I get poor gas mileage when my 02 sensor went bad? As soon as I replaced it my gas mileage went back to normal (this was a few years ago).


I never insinuated anything. I've explained it more than once.

As for your o2 sensor going bad, sure your milage will go to shit. That's neither here nor there.

The o2 sensor is limitted in what it can do. You are missing the point. No matter what you do from an idle stand point, without a modification of several(you'll pay more to try to modify it than whats it worth) sensors, you will still get around the same milage.

The vehicle will still "know" when your tires begin to move and you are off idle to lean your mixture, or richen, depending on what is going on.

In other words, this scewball "enhancers" are useless. I don't care who says what, they aren't doing you any good.

Wanna prove me wrong? Take the million dollar challange. (Google it)

Lets break it down to the old vehicle. I hear these punks claiming "I get 6 million miles per gallon in my 1970 chevy truck", ya right. Ozzy claims you simply adjust your mixture screws. What a dumb ass! Those are IDLE mixture screws. You would have to rejet your carb, and you would burn valves out left and right by doing so.

If you get off the hho forums(not just this one, all of them) go to a real auto forum, they have proven just how f-ed up all these poppycock ideas are. You only hear these great claims on these forums. In the real forums, it has never worked, and a few have even tried all the bs.

Of course, most of us on the other forums for technicians have actually gone to school and know how outragouse these claims are. Nobody's taken the million dollars yet, and they won't comming from these forums.

As the saying goes: "Money talks, and bullshit walks".

There was a guy in this forum, trying to compair todays engines with the space shuttle! How f-ed up is that? Not even remotely close to each other.

If you want to make this work, go to a forum where there are engineers, and ask, then LISTEN to what they are telling you. You may or maynot come up with something. Just randomly following someone who has nothing to lose if you screw up your engine, is, well, just sad.

[TBill]

You sure don't sound like you think it can work.

[Scooterdog]

You sure don't sound like you think it can work.

TBill:

I'm not saying it can not work. What I'm saying, is there are people who need to be charged for the crime of fruad selling bunk junk, when they have no clue as to how something works.

I'm saying, a few mods to sensors that only play a small, limitted role is not the answer, and when brought to someone attention, they get all bent out of shape.

This iis off subject, but the theory's are the same. I have two law degrees as well, and go to "laymen" sites. They sell all sorts of poppycock books on how to cheat the IRS to "gods law is the only law". They are dead wrong on every subject, but people buy this bunk, in hopes of making improvements in thier daily lives. What usually happens, is they end up in jail, stiff fines, or lose thier homes. Again, these are people making claims about things they know nothing about.



Can it work? Sure, will it make you double your milage, no way in hell. Never gonna happen.


TBill, if you want, you can pm me, and I will find you a forum or two with people who have engineering degrees, and you can talk to them. Why ask the street begger how to make money? I'm going to the man with the money who can prove it. Most Technicians are more than happy to help, it's not like we keep the auto industry in the closet. (Uncle joe who works at the local tire station isn't a technician)

Talk to the people who know, and they will help.

[Scooterdog]

anything on the net can be verified. just because it is easily referenced does not mean its fooey.

If the air we breath had a higher O2 content, most scientist believe we would be larger and plants would be larger.

Well, I don't think most scientist "believe" that, they know it be true by facts. Plants wouldn't be bigger, plants uptake CO2, and produce O2. Todays beetles have a restricted air way, the million year old ones didn't, and were 10x bigger.

This has little to do with the fake "gas" you buy at the pump. I'm sure you've heard of the carb. that gets 100 miles per gallon. I doubt it ever did. nevertheless, if used today, it wouldn't do jack diddly for the simple fact, we are not using the same gas we did 60 years ago.

In Romania, they have designed a new "gas" that extends engine life by 2x, and increases mpg by that at a min. They pay less than a dollar per gallon.

Gas is your biggest problem in Amerika (yep with a "k"). You will never get the results of doubling your milage as some people are claiming.

[sumdude]

not getting in on this argument because i have heard it a million times before but i just thought this here would be fun to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8EEXeiiCZ0

also

the question that i would ask is in the case of guys like smith;
" 04 VW Touareg V6, 6 speed automatic - 7 mpg increase. 35% increase so far. Still testing. Confused a latest results. No ECU Mods. No extras..." with no mods and in the video above how is this possible, and thats a real question not trying to prove anything?

[TBill]

If your concern is over those trying to make money, I would think your time is better spent sharing your information with some oversight agency (Better Business Bureau)?

If your concern is with the level of expertise on this forum or those like it, frankly what would you expect in an open forum environment? (You are going to have all levels:rolleyes:)

If you have discovered HHO topics in forums and discussion boards that come from a different pov such as mechanics, engineers, etc. I would suspect you should share them here because everyone I've seen here - for the most part - just want to learn and share.

Just my $.02:D

[Boltazar]

OK mate, you came here hooting and hollering, pounding your chest about your degree put up or bugger off. Were all here to learn from each other and make up our own minds about what will work and what won't for us. If your so book learned why don't you explain to us how the sensors interact with eachother and how we can make adjustments to get better mpg. Myself, I'd like to learn how to retard the timming on my 2000 GMC Serria 5.3L pickup. To me, the factory ignition timming is to advanced for the quick burn of HHO. I've seen my ign timming as far advanced as 53 deg. Thats way to advanced for the improved power stroke with HHO.

So,what do ya say, ya gona help us or just put down everything that's said here. If your smart and educated you could be a mentor first class here.

[Riddler250]

Scooter,
I see why you are skeptical. I was too. especially by the claims that say 50% or better mpg. Those are the same guys that sell their magic boosters, All my schematics were free from other sites with nothing to gain and from this site, again with nothing to gain but information to share, thats what this is all about, and thats what this site seems to be all about, I havnt seen too many people on here just trying to sell their "poppycock bs". I see people on here sharing information and knowledge for free, just because. there are enginers on here, as well as mechanics or automotive tecs. I am an electronic tech and work closely with master mechanics and auto techs on a daily basis. If i remember right, the million dollar challenge was for an over-unity device (creates more energy than consumed) HHo is not making that claim. We are simply taking wasted energy or energy that is already being created and using it. not over-unity, not free energy.

[Scooterdog]

OK mate, you came here hooting and hollering, pounding your chest about your degree put up or bugger off. Were all here to learn from each other and make up our own minds about what will work and what won't for us. If your so book learned why don't you explain to us how the sensors interact with eachother and how we can make adjustments to get better mpg. Myself, I'd like to learn how to retard the timming on my 2000 GMC Serria 5.3L pickup. To me, the factory ignition timming is to advanced for the quick burn of HHO. I've seen my ign timming as far advanced as 53 deg. Thats way to advanced for the improved power stroke with HHO.

So,what do ya say, ya gona help us or just put down everything that's said here. If your smart and educated you could be a mentor first class here.

I am trying to help, but there are several scammers on here. If you add hydrogen, you must advance the timing, not retard it.

[Scooterdog]

Scooter,
I see why you are skeptical. I was too. especially by the claims that say 50% or better mpg. Those are the same guys that sell their magic boosters, All my schematics were free from other sites with nothing to gain and from this site, again with nothing to gain but information to share, thats what this is all about, and thats what this site seems to be all about, I havnt seen too many people on here just trying to sell their "poppycock bs". I see people on here sharing information and knowledge for free, just because. there are enginers on here, as well as mechanics or automotive tecs. I am an electronic tech and work closely with master mechanics and auto techs on a daily basis. If i remember right, the million dollar challenge was for an over-unity device (creates more energy than consumed) HHo is not making that claim. We are simply taking wasted energy or energy that is already being created and using it. not over-unity, not free energy.

No the million dollar challange is if you can get positive results, and replicate it, you will be a little richer. Popular Mech. tested this HHO, and showed almost a 50% loss in power and milage. They actually tested it in a REAL shop(not in the back yard) on a dyno, sure don't look good boys.

[Cadillac]

I am trying to help, but there are several scammers on here. If you add hydrogen, you must advance the timing, not retard it.

Odd NASA's research says the exact opposite of what you are saying.

[Scooterdog]

Odd NASA's research says the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Ya, I'm sure. Then why do they advance timing by 12* when running strait nitrogen? Explain that one.

[Cadillac]

That's funny I don't think I said anything about nitrogen.

[Riddler250]

Doesnt nitrogen burn fast as hell? A lot faster than hydrogen?

[precaster1@msn.com]

Not this guy again. He must have been picked on in school.

[H2OPWR]

Scooterdog, Why are you on an HHO forum at all if you think it is all BS?????? If you do really have all the degree's you say you have why are you wasting your time???? You are the one who is a F@@@@ING MORON. I have been around a long time. I have been in the automotive industry for over 25 years. BY THE WAY I DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE DEGREE JUST LIKE YOU! You really want us to beleive that you have two Law Degrees and an Automotive Degree. You really must have sucked at law! By the way I have doubled the mileage on a 98 Jeep Wrangler with HHO and sensor mod's. Get off this forum and get a life. Can you not see that you are the outsider here with no hope of convincing anyone. Also go ahead and google your million dollar challenge and read the rules. Do you really think that anyone on this forum has the backing to meet the challenge. If you are trying to help then help if not then go away!

[HiTechRedNeck73]

wow, in this guy's world only engineers and masters are inventors... I'm glad I don't live there...

[HiTechRedNeck73]

Scooterdog, Why are you on an HHO forum at all if you think it is all BS?????? If you do really have all the degree's you say you have why are you wasting your time???? You are the one who is a F@@@@ING MORON. I have been around a long time. I have been in the automotive industry for over 25 years. BY THE WAY I DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE DEGREE JUST LIKE YOU! You really want us to beleive that you have two Law Degrees and an Automotive Degree. You really must have sucked at law! By the way I have doubled the mileage on a 98 Jeep Wrangler with HHO and sensor mod's. Get off this forum and get a life. Can you not see that you are the outsider here with no hope of convincing anyone. Also go ahead and google your million dollar challenge and read the rules. Do you really think that anyone on this forum has the backing to meet the challenge. If you are trying to help then help if not then go away!

he just stopped by to give us a hard time and let us know that we are all full of shit...

of course, what he doesn't know, won't hurt him one bit...

[Riddler250]

Scooterdog, Why are you on an HHO forum at all if you think it is all BS?????? If you do really have all the degree's you say you have why are you wasting your time???? You are the one who is a F@@@@ING MORON. I have been around a long time. I have been in the automotive industry for over 25 years. BY THE WAY I DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE DEGREE JUST LIKE YOU! You really want us to beleive that you have two Law Degrees and an Automotive Degree. You really must have sucked at law! By the way I have doubled the mileage on a 98 Jeep Wrangler with HHO and sensor mod's. Get off this forum and get a life. Can you not see that you are the outsider here with no hope of convincing anyone. Also go ahead and google your million dollar challenge and read the rules. Do you really think that anyone on this forum has the backing to meet the challenge. If you are trying to help then help if not then go away!

What setup are you using to double you mpg? Thats amazing!

[Scooterdog]

That's funny I don't think I said anything about nitrogen.

You are right, it was late, I ment hydrogen. Nitrogen is my next little trick I will be trying to get more bang out of air.

(atleast I can admit when I made a mistake, why can't someof you)

[Scooterdog]

Scooterdog, Why are you on an HHO forum at all if you think it is all BS?????? If you do really have all the degree's you say you have why are you wasting your time???? You are the one who is a F@@@@ING MORON. I have been around a long time. I have been in the automotive industry for over 25 years. BY THE WAY I DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE DEGREE JUST LIKE YOU! You really want us to beleive that you have two Law Degrees and an Automotive Degree. You really must have sucked at law! By the way I have doubled the mileage on a 98 Jeep Wrangler with HHO and sensor mod's. Get off this forum and get a life. Can you not see that you are the outsider here with no hope of convincing anyone. Also go ahead and google your million dollar challenge and read the rules. Do you really think that anyone on this forum has the backing to meet the challenge. If you are trying to help then help if not then go away!

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

[Mindcrime13]

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

becaus you just got a supreme ownage.

[Scooterdog]

becaus you just got a supreme ownage.

No, because it was senseless babble. "25 years without a degree", whoopy! Bet my tire man has about that much expertise as well.

All us dumbass's with our degree's, we just don't know I guess. Popular Mechanics must fit in with us as well.

If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it, kinda like tv, just turn the channel.

[Riddler250]

Just ignore him, he will go away

[redneckgearhead34]

Ya h20power I would like to see your setup and just out of curiousity is it a 4 or six cylinder jeep?

[HiTechRedNeck73]

No, because it was senseless babble. "25 years without a degree", whoopy! Bet my tire man has about that much expertise as well.

All us dumbass's with our degree's, we just don't know I guess. Popular Mechanics must fit in with us as well.

If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it, kinda like tv, just turn the channel.

and I suppose you believe everything in the news or printed word is true... boy do you have plenty to learn... you have plenty to say about the people here and the ideas we have, but you have not addressed any issues about the oil companies paying people like us with ideas like this to keep quiet so the world doesn't find out they can run cars with water and such...

also, you have plenty to say to everyone, but you didn't answer my question about the o2 sensor... I even provided pictures for you... you didn't even acknowledge it... and I know that information is correct, because I got all that info from a manufacturer of o2 sensors...

you keep referring to the fact that we are dumb and don't know anything... but let me tell you something... my FIRST degree is in Electronics Engineering... my SECOND degree is in Mechanical Engineering... but its my street degree that teaches me that bullshit smells...

[Scooterdog]

and I suppose you believe everything in the news or printed word is true... boy do you have plenty to learn... you have plenty to say about the people here and the ideas we have, but you have not addressed any issues about the oil companies paying people like us with ideas like this to keep quiet so the world doesn't find out they can run cars with water and such...

What companies are these paying people who don't know? LOL, thats some funny shit there. Never heard that one before ROFLMAO!! You do have a sense of humor after all.

also, you have plenty to say to everyone, but you didn't answer my question about the o2 sensor... I even provided pictures for you... you didn't even acknowledge it... and I know that information is correct, because I got all that info from a manufacturer of o2 sensors...

If that was the post of the bunk aboiut the o2 sensor, I doubt any manufacturer would describe it that way. The was very poorly written. Not saying it wasn't correct. We are discussing the average sensor, and since nobody can afford to take the million dollar challange on this board, it is only logical we should be discussing older versions of vehicle. I'm sure there is all sorts of stuff made that I have not worked on. But, for the sake of the last 20 years, that is completely incorrect.

you keep referring to the fact that we are dumb and don't know anything... but let me tell you something... my FIRST degree is in Electronics Engineering... my SECOND degree is in Mechanical Engineering... but its my street degree that teaches me that bullshit smells...

Who's we? Ya got a turd in your pocket? I never said EVERYONE on here was stupid. Not even close buddy. You, who said you don't have a degree, now claim you have two (but fails to tell us where he got them, and no, corrispondance courses dont' count)seem extremely ignorant when it comes to automotive technology. I can see that there are no Auto prof. on this site? Wonder why?

[HiTechRedNeck73]

here is where I got the o2 sensor info...

http://www.ngkoxygensensors.com/faqmain.asp

http://www.ngkoxygensensors.com/oxygensensor411.asp?kw=Titania&mfid=1

http://www.ngkoxygensensors.com/oxygensensor411.asp?kw=Zirconia&mfid=1

and please don't try to tell me that these are not the sensors in my car... Chrysler uses NTK brand o2 sensors (NGK made) in all production vehicles they have...

and you must have me mixed up with someone else... I never said I didn't have a degree...

Electronics Engineering, Devry, Phoenix AZ
Mechanical Engineering, Fresno State University, Fresno CA

not that the school should matter... they all basically teach the same things...

[Scooterdog]

here is where I got the o2 sensor info...

http://www.ngkoxygensensors.com/faqmain.asp

http://www.ngkoxygensensors.com/oxygensensor411.asp?kw=Titania&mfid=1

http://www.ngkoxygensensors.com/oxygensensor411.asp?kw=Zirconia&mfid=1

and you must have me mixed up with someone else... I never said I didn't have a degree...

Electronics Engineering, Devry, Phoenix AZ
Mechanical Engineering, Fresno State University, Fresno CA

not that the school should matter... they all basically teach the same things...

These were used in the 80's and 90's? No they were not. Explain to us, ALL OF US, how a two wire sensor is "detecting o2" when they are not. They react to the unspent hydrocarbons like a chromatograph does.

[HiTechRedNeck73]

These were used in the 80's and 90's? No they were not. Explain to us, ALL OF US, how a two wire sensor is "detecting o2" when they are not. They react to the unspent hydrocarbons like a chromatograph does.

ok, so you are calling NTK/NGK a liar... that's fine... I seem to think they may know what they are talking about since they manufacture them...

as far as a chromatograph, I do believe that it is a machine or device much like a smog machine that most states use for emissions testing... we don't have portable smog machines in our cars... there is nothing I've ever read that suggests o2 sensors are using that process...

[Scooterdog]

ok, so you are calling NTK/NGK a liar... that's fine... I seem to think they may know what they are talking about since they manufacture them...

as far as a chromatograph, I do believe that it is a machine or device much like a smog machine that most states use for emissions testing... we don't have portable smog machines in our cars... there is nothing I've ever read that suggests o2 sensors are using that process...

No, i'm not calling them a lier. I said, those are of new design, and would not apply to older vehicles, which is what from my readings on here, is not the same.

A chomatograph is used to monitor the gas's comming from a well bore. I'm less than two feet from one right now.

[HiTechRedNeck73]

they say the 1 & 2 wire o2 sensors are different from 3 & 4 wire only by a heater element to heat the reference air... 5 wire o2 sensors use external sensors to replace the internal reference air...

I don't know the eras of the different sensors, but according to them, 4 wire sensors were used in the 80s and 90s... my car is a Dodge Intrepid... 1st gen Intrepids have the same type of o2 sensors as the 2nd gen... so from 1992-2004 all Intrepids have 4 wire o2 sensors... even my 1989 Ford Bronco 5.0 had 4 wire o2 sensors...

http://www.ngk.com/glossaryImage.asp?imgID=402

I've not seen every vehicle out there... and I've not seen every type of o2 sensor... but the information they give, fits with what I've seen...

now, with all that said... it is possible that there are different types of o2 sensors that use different methods to find the information to send back to the ECU... since there are many different auto makers out there... I'd say that is believable...

like most people here, I could probably help someone with a different type of car, but my own research is directly related to my own vehicles, because I don't mess with hydrogen for a living... I'd be the first to say, that if this was my living, I'd be starving... because I'd have to spend all day long trying to sell a concept like this to people like you... no offense meant... just an example...

chomatographs are also used to detect hydrocarbons from a car... there was a NASA report about using one on cars somewhere around here... I've never used one...

ah... here it is... http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/1996/TM-107253.pdf

[Stevo]

Sure, it will work. But, the problem I see (I have a degree in Automotive Technology, 3 months from my Masters) is that 99.9% of the people making claims, are just clueless as to how things work.

Bullshit myths:

1. Engine has Vacuum.

2. Restricting air flow decreases o2.

3. An "Oxygen Sensor" detects oxygen

4. Leaning an engine by o2 sensor will do you good.(Not off idle it won't)

5. hooking up some handheld device to check mpg after screwing with the reading to the computer is PROOF that you are getting better mpg.(Dead f-n wrong! If you put fake info in, you get fake info back.)

Nobody seems to want to talk about such things as the VSS, CPS...

Got anger? :)

[DigitalMocking]

folks, if you feed the trolls they just keep going and going.

ignore him, his "credentials" and half of what he says. He's half wrong and half lying.

[Stevo]

folks, if you feed the trolls they just keep going and going.

ignore him, his "credentials" and half of what he says. He's half wrong and half lying.

"No, No!!! Don't ignore me! I'm important!!"

http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/images/troll.jpg

[Cadillac]

"No, No!!! Don't ignore me! I'm important!!"

http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/images/troll.jpg

Wow, that picture is just awesome.

[frosty121]

Without it, the vehicle thinks its at idle, not moving, no timing adjustment. You can drive it, but it will miss and drink gas like no tomarow. The o2 sensors don't do anything even though your pumping almost raw gas out the exhaust. Does this help you?

Allright, I was going to stay out of this, but since you evidently work for the oil company ... here goes.

Good luck on your Masters. I have mine from MIT, followed by the doctorate.

If you unplug the VSS, the engine will still advance timing. Dear Mr. Engineer in training, have you ever used a timing light? If you did you would know that when you rev and engine with the timing light, the timing advances. The information the computer uses is different for different car makers. It could be a CPS or the distributor on older vehicles. The only thing a VSS does is tell you the speed and when for the transmission to shift or lockup the TC.

Listen, if you do not like the idea of this forum you are entitled, but just bug off and let the folks work. The paperclip was invented by someone doodling in his office and it was a hit. If you think this is a waste of time, stop waisting yours, and let us waist ours however we like.

[Stevo]

No, because it was senseless babble. "25 years without a degree", whoopy! Bet my tire man has about that much expertise as well.

All us dumba$$'s with our degree's, we just don't know I guess. Popular Mechanics must fit in with us as well.

If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it, kinda like tv, just turn the channel.

Dear Superman,

Blah blah.

Your Pal,

Kryptonite

[Scooterdog]

Allright, I was going to stay out of this, but since you evidently work for the oil company ... here goes.

Good luck on your Masters. I have mine from MIT, followed by the doctorate.

If you unplug the VSS, the engine will still advance timing. Dear Mr. Engineer in training, have you ever used a timing light? If you did you would know that when you rev and engine with the timing light, the timing advances. The information the computer uses is different for different car makers. It could be a CPS or the distributor on older vehicles. The only thing a VSS does is tell you the speed and when for the transmission to shift or lockup the TC.

Listen, if you do not like the idea of this forum you are entitled, but just bug off and let the folks work. The paperclip was invented by someone doodling in his office and it was a hit. If you think this is a waste of time, stop waisting yours, and let us waist ours however we like.

Wrong again. The VSS allows the computer to 1-advance the timing by giving it information on what you are doing, 2-adjust air/fuel..

If you unplug your VSS, you will be set at a rich(Idle)mixture, and base timing. Try driving at 60mph, you can actually watch the gas meter move, and you will miss to beat hell.

As for the last paragraph, again, if you don't like what I have to say, put me on ignore, it really is that simple. But, alot of you cant do that, you call me names because I tell someone they are not only wrong, but not even in the ball park.

What about the ones on here who have shown no improvements with water4gas??? Why don't you go jump thier ass's as well? (Probably, because there are more on here than you want to admit)

[redneckgearhead34]

Wrong again. The VSS allows the computer to 1-advance the timing by giving it information on what you are doing, 2-adjust air/fuel..

If you unplug your VSS, you will be set at a rich(Idle)mixture, and base timing. Try driving at 60mph, you can actually watch the gas meter move, and you will miss to beat hell.

As for the last paragraph, again, if you don't like what I have to say, put me on ignore, it really is that simple. But, alot of you cant do that, you call me names because I tell someone they are not only wrong, but not even in the ball park.

What about the ones on here who have shown no improvements with water4gas??? Why don't you go jump thier ass's as well? (Probably, because there are more on here than you want to admit)

I vote for Frosty. I am a big fan of MIT btw. Hoping to go there next year, that is if I get accepted.

As for activity in this forum, mine will be temporarily decreasing. My parents saw my calculus grade :( They have banned me from my shop and working on HHO :( . But dont fear my friends I will be up and running next week. Grades come first

[Scooterdog]

I vote for Frosty. I am a big fan of MIT btw. Hoping to go there next year, that is if I get accepted.

As for activity in this forum, mine will be temporarily decreasing. My parents saw my calculus grade :( They have banned me from my shop and working on HHO :( . But dont fear my friends I will be up and running next week. Grades come first

Not suprising at all. :)

[redneckgearhead34]

Not suprising at all. :)

F---k off scooterdog. I am an extremely succesful student with a 4.3 gpa and a crap load of extracuriculars along with being an extremely active member in my FFA chapter

[Scooterdog]

Fuck off scooterdog. I am an extremely succesful student with a 4.3 gpa and a crap load of extracuriculars along with being an extremely active member in my FFA chapter

4.3 Huh? And you're failing math? :confused:

The first thing they need to do, is take a big hammer to your computer, drag you out of that room and wash your mouth out with soap.

[Scooterdog]

Very interesting, very. Either consumer affairs promotes global warming, or...

By David Wood
ConsumerAffairs.com

What if you could install a small device under your car hood and improve your fuel economy by 50 percent? With today's soaring gas prices, a device like that sounds pretty good. Almost too good, in fact.

These widely-advertised devices, known variously as a "hydrogen generator" or "hydrogen booster," claim to be able to use electricity from your car battery to split water into its components of oxygen and hydrogen. This supposedly forms what is called "Browns Gas."

Scientists say the idea is preposterous, with one saying the energy created would "not amount to a hill of beans."

Perhaps the most notorious Web site promoting the concept is Water4Gas.com. Created by a gentleman who calls himself Ozzie Freedom, the site is a 12,000-word sales pitch for two electronic books advertised at $97.00.
The books supposedly explain how you can build your own system that will "…take EXCESS energy out of the car's battery or alternator (in other words very low current that the engine does not feel) and use this electricity to generate a very small amount of Hydrogen per minute. What that Hydrogen does is help split the gasoline/air mixture droplets into a finer mist - thus helping it burn more efficiently and more completely."

What kind of mileage improvements? Well, the Water4Gas site claims that you'll be able to double your gas mileage. However, one claim says that the system "has boosted MPG by as much as 185% on a Chevy 4WD truck…"

Mason jar
Those are pretty big claims for a device made out of a Mason jar and baking soda, so we contacted Water4Gas by both phone and e-mail, sending a list of questions to Mr. Freedom. Our inquiries went unanswered.
Doing a Web search for "water4gas" or "Ozzie Freedom" brings up page after page of search results and advertisements with headlines such as, "Is Water4Gas a Scam?" or "Water4Gas Reviewed," not to mention a wealth of videos that claim to show the device in action.

It doesn't take long to realize that the "articles" and "reviews" appear to be sales pitches masquerading as unbiased reviews. Some sites present themselves as mechanics giving free advice to motorists.
Presenting a possible clue as to where all these sites come from, a site called waterfuelx.com instructs sales affiliates on how to increase sales, recommending that the affiliate create a "review page" and list the waterfuelx product as the number one choice because "reviewing the product will mean monster [sales] conversions."

No experts
All of these hydrogen booster sites have one thing in common: Even though they claim the "hydrogen-booster process" has been around a hundred years, they don't include any scientific studies or expert testimony to support their claim that the process improves gas mileage.
In fact, the Water4Gas site specifically says that you shouldn't listen to "experts." Instead, Mr. Freedom says that you should just order his books.
And just who is the mysterious Mr. Freedom?

According to the bio on his Web site, he was formerly known as Eyal Siman-Tov, and Water4Gas is not his first online venture.

In 2006, he ran a Web site called Magnet4cash.com. It promised that you could "finance your wildest dreams WITHOUT loans," with the goal "to educate you on little-known methods to make fast cash legally…"
Mr. Freedom also invented the "Spongebee," which he describes as "the new all-American flying craze." Further, he is the founder of something called Sane Computers. That Web site has the headline, "New Mind-Blowing Invention Puts An End To... Your Computer Frustrations!"
Additionally, Freedom's portfolio lists many awards, including the "Sponsor For Total Freedom" by the International Association of Scientologists.
Scientists dismissive
Freedom's advice to ignore the experts notwithstanding, we checked in with a few.

"All of these device/schemes seem to promote adding hydrogen to improve the combustion process. There is no way it can improve fuel economy by 50%, or even 5%," said Dr. Robert Sawyer, Professor of Energy Emeritus at the University of California, Berkeley .

Dr. Sawyer said that he has been reviewing gas-saving devices since he first joined the faculty at UC-Berkeley, more than 40 years ago, and to see a change in MPG comes as no surprise.

"One would expect to see a small increase or decrease (a few percent) in fuel economy from all of these devices, purely the result of test variability. However, people will put a device on their car and automatically change the way they drive. This in itself will improve fuel economy simply because a person is driving slower, etc.," Sawyer said.

All of the experts we spoke with had serious problems with the wording on the Web sites promoting the Water4Gas concept.

"The Web sites I saw used a little bit of truth mixed in with a lot of false statements," said Dr. John Kramlich, Professor of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Washington College of Engineering. "People need to forget about all the 'testimonials' they see because the only way to know if a device helps at all is to use a dynamometer. You not only need to test the MPG, but also what is happening to the combustion process of the engine, and the test has to be done numerous times."
When we showed the instructions and claims to Dr. Andrew A. Frank, he had difficulty holding back the laughter.
"It shows the desperation people feel!" said Frank, Professor of Mechanical and Aeronautical Engineering at the University of California, Davis.
"This has been around for years, but it didn't work back then and it won't work now," Dr. Frank said. "It's such a very small amount of hydrogen-oxygen gas that it is impossible to have any real effect on combustion."

[Scooterdog]

Frank went on to relay a story from his youth.

"Back in the 50's, water injection was a big thing because the P-51 Mustang aircraft used the process. The P-51 used a very high engine compression and on heavy loads, the engine would knock. The water injection did give the P-51 engine more power and it stopped the knocking."

"Curious people like me started to modify our own cars, and guess what? It did get rid of the knocking, but it also took a ton of water. It also messed up the timing because internal combustion engines aren't designed for these things. In short, all it did was create a negative force on the engine, even though the knocking stopped."

We asked Dr. Frank about all the positive "reviews" and "testimonials" that have flooded the Internet.
"A normal everyday driver can't accurately measure the MPG of their car. Each tank of gas might vary the MPG by as much as 20%, based on the time of day, road conditions, etc.," Frank stated.
"I saw one 'test' that showed a driver filling up the tank, driving 20 miles and then stopping to top off the tank. You can't measure anything this way because the air in the tank could easily be 100% off."

Dr. Frank also made note of what every other expert has said — a car battery can't create enough energy to have any measurable effect.

"These devices simply cannot generate enough hydrogen or oxygen to amount to a hill of beans. A 12-volt car battery might create some bubbles, but beyond that, a standard car battery isn't powerful enough to do anything," he said.

"Here's a good example that people should keep in mind," Frank said. "Even with the most expensive and sophisticated energy recovery systems, such as on some diesel trucks, you will only see about a 5% increase in fuel mileage."

In fact, some Canadian truckers use hydrogen boosters, but they shell out up to $15,000 for the technology. In addition, the Canadian government performed scientific testing on the device and found that it reduced fuel consumption by only 4%.

David Greene, energy expert and Corporate Fellow at Oak Ridge National Laboratory concurred. He said that yes, people can see an improvement, but "the potential for efficiency improvement by more rapid combustion is nowhere near the kinds of claims these Web sites make."
Side effects
Even if a person could tweak a device to get a few percent improvements in MPG, what kind of other problems might they be causing?

"You are also causing the engine to work harder, plain and simple," said Greene.

The experts also said to be wary of Web sites that use selective "studies" to promote their product. Many sites are referencing material from the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).
"I'm very active with that group and often times the SAE papers have a very narrow scope," said Dr. Thomas Asmus, retired Senior Research Executive with DaimlerChrysler Corporation and a current member of the Fuel Economy Panel for the National Academy of Science. "These hydrogen-on-demand Web sites are picking and choosing which SAE factoids to use, but if you added it all up, you would have nothing."
A recognized expert in fuel efficiency and engine combustion, Dr. Asmus said that these devices, "mix in a little hydrogen with fuel and can make a difference, but considering the amount of water used and that we're talking about a 12-volt battery, the maximum improvement (if any) would be no more than 2%."

And what about the claims of this being "suppressed" technology?

"This stuff has been around forever and it's been researched to death. It's a simple electrolyzer that could quite possibly cause more energy to be used than if you didn't use the device. It's as 'scammish' as anything I have ever seen," Asmus said.
Hydrogen Honda
In June, Honda made news with the introduction of its first hydrogen fuel cell car, an incredibly sophisticated, and incredibly expensive technology. Those who don't pay much attention to details may think the Honda project lends credence to the Water4Gas concept.

But the battery-powered cars are, in fact, powered by a hydrogen fuel that, while essentially made from water, is the product of a process much more complex and expensive than anything described on the gas-from-water sites.

In fact, getting water anywhere near gasoline is bad news for an engine. The slightest bit of water in your gas tank can cause huge problems.

The gas-from-water sites may be the newest kid on the block but they join a long list of supposed fuel-efficiency products that just don't make the grade, consumer protection officials warn.

"When gasoline prices rise, consumers often look for ways to improve fuel efficiency," the Federal Trade Commission said in a recent consumer alert. "Although there are practical steps you can take to increase gas mileage, you should be wary of any gas-saving claims for automotive devices or oil and gas additives. Even for the few gas-saving products that have been found to work, the savings have been small."

[Riddler250]

So everone on here who is "claiming" to be getting 30% better mpg is lying even though they have nothing to gain? Smith03 who has tested and increased mpg by 30% and is not selling his plans or device, he is giving away his knowledge for free. Im sure he and others have tested this method of increasing mpg numerous times with basiclly the same results. I cant speak for them, but from what ive read on here it has been tested and tested and tested and tested with positive results. These same people are not claiming 185% or even 50% increase. A mere 10-33% increase by leaning out the fuel by adding another combustible "fuel" is possible and it has been shown by the mentors on this site. water4gas makes outrageous claims, and he sells this "device" for an outrageous amount of money. he seems to be a scam. gasolene cannot be the only form of energy to burn. of all the elements on earth and in the atmosphere there is something to use. we here at HHofoums.com are testing this method and learning from each other. Some people have had no positive results while the ones testing and reporting for free are getting some results. A little increase in fuel economy is possible and I believe these people have found that and proved it.They are sharing this information with others on this forum for what? not monitary gain. I want to thank everyone on here, except scooter, who are making this a productive "work enviroment" And think you for doing the research that others do not have the time or money to do.
David
a believer in hho

[Scooterdog]

So everone on here who is "claiming" to be getting 30% better mpg is lying even though they have nothing to gain? Smith03 who has tested and increased mpg by 30% and is not selling his plans or device, he is giving away his knowledge for free. Im sure he and others have tested this method of increasing mpg numerous times with basiclly the same results. I cant speak for them, but from what ive read on here it has been tested and tested and tested and tested with positive results. These same people are not claiming 185% or even 50% increase. A mere 10-33% increase by leaning out the fuel by adding another combustible "fuel" is possible and it has been shown by the mentors on this site. water4gas makes outrageous claims, and he sells this "device" for an outrageous amount of money. he seems to be a scam. gasolene cannot be the only form of energy to burn. of all the elements on earth and in the atmosphere there is something to use. we here at HHofoums.com are testing this method and learning from each other. Some people have had no positive results while the ones testing and reporting for free are getting some results. A little increase in fuel economy is possible and I believe these people have found that and proved it.They are sharing this information with others on this forum for what? not monitary gain. I want to thank everyone on here, except scooter, who are making this a productive "work enviroment" And think you for doing the research that others do not have the time or money to do.
David
a believer in hho


Don't jump me, jump the professional who tested it.

[Riddler250]

Don't jump me, jump the professional who tested it.

It just doesnt seem that you have anything productive to add to this group. If you wanna stay on here and be ridiculed just like we are being ridiculed by you, then fine. who am I to tell you to leave.

[DigitalMocking]

Don't jump me, jump the professional who tested it.

The professionals who tested it tested a device from a scam artist who runs a scam website. If you want to go yell at some people, head over to water4gas.com.

For the most part I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of the claims you see online, and even here, but threads by guys like painless, stu and smith lend more credibility to the entire process. Guys who are sharing their findings for free, not selling you anything, and reporting both sucesses and failures.

I don't think you can do much by just fiddling with the o2 sensors myself, I think you need real ECU programming ability to adjust your timing and change the fuel mixture. Fortunately I've got a 94 jetta, a vag-com cable and time on my hands. For me it's worthwhile to try because I do believe that adding the right amount of hydrogen to the FA mixture will change the burn properties.

[frosty121]

I vote for Frosty. I am a big fan of MIT btw. Hoping to go there next year, that is if I get accepted.

As for activity in this forum, mine will be temporarily decreasing. My parents saw my calculus grade :( They have banned me from my shop and working on HHO :( . But dont fear my friends I will be up and running next week. Grades come first

redneckgearhead, Good luck with your pursuit of education excellence. The nice thing about having an REAL, advance technical degree is that you do not have to artificially inflate your intelligence by making outlandish claims. No cut intended to anyone that does not, as no degree makes that one person qualified as smarter than any other.

An old saying: If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS.

[precaster1@msn.com]

Yo dog, it looks like you will believe anything but the truth. So the good doctor knows better than me the results i'm getting? what do doctors know about combustion anyway? He must be Exxon's company doctor. Ya thats it ,its gotta be. He should stick to his rectal exams and leave this to us pros.

[Scooterdog]

This whole site is BS, and everyone on it what says that HHO is anything other than a scam is trying to scam you too.

Most making these claims are selling books and what not. If you go to Ford or Chevy forums, they are getting negative results, 0 at best.

Like I've said, anyone can take the million dollar challange, if you can make it work. That has yet to happen.

I've written several manufactures of these "sensor enhancers", most won't respond when questioned, and the ones that do you get nothing but smartass responses. Real professionals.

The above article refers to more than one expert. I find it odd that Popular Mech has tested this system on a dyno, and showed power loss, and a 50% decrease in mpg. You can't argue with the dyno. The above mentioned article (by consumer affairs, not the "Big Oil") has nothing to gain from telling the truth or lying about it.

Like I said before, who you going to listen to? Someone that will direct you where to buy stuff? Even if they aren't selling stuff, it is doing nothing more than getting people interested so they will invest their hard earned money into this.

This is where being educated comes into play. I know a guy who dropped out of the 8th grade, and he thinks he's and auto expert. (He's a truck driver!) Some of the "explanations" on here are so far fetched, they are funny to read.

As I said before, if I want to know how to become rich, do I talk to the steet begger? or the guy in the big house on the nice side of town?


Scientists say the idea is preposterous

the "s" at the end tell us it's not one person.


"A normal everyday driver can't accurately measure the MPG of their car. Each tank of gas might vary the MPG by as much as 20%, based on the time of day, road conditions, etc.,

This would explain the increase in mileage, would it not?

Dyno testing proves this, nobody here has posted dyno results.


Even with the most expensive and sophisticated energy recovery systems, such as on some diesel trucks, you will only see about a 5% increase in fuel mileage."

In fact, some Canadian truckers use hydrogen boosters, but they shell out up to $15,000 for the technology. In addition, the Canadian government performed scientific testing on the device and found that it reduced fuel consumption by only 4%.

Thats called evidence.

[computerclinic]

Its not a scam, the science and the principals have all been proven time and again. This is fact. When relating the cost and savings with our fuel prices Dr.. Frank surely must have figured the cost of the Genny (build, install, maintane etc..) and then added that cost to the cost of fuel.

When you introduce any thing new to someone, they always approach it with a degree of sceptacism. Rightfully so. Not all of us are true suckers. Sometimes we are led to believe things not JUST because of what they percieve as fact, but also through other psychological interpretations.

Bottom line, there are always going to be those who firmly believe as well as disbelieve. The proof resides in getting your hands dirty, your information factual, and the willingness to explore more than just a few avenues.

[Scooterdog]

Its not a scam, the science and the principals have all been proven time and again. This is fact. When relating the cost and savings with our fuel prices Dr.. Frank surely must have figured the cost of the Genny (build, install, maintane etc..) and then added that cost to the cost of fuel.

When you introduce any thing new to someone, they always approach it with a degree of sceptacism. Rightfully so. Not all of us are true suckers. Sometimes we are led to believe things not JUST because of what they percieve as fact, but also through other psychological interpretations.

Bottom line, there are always going to be those who firmly believe as well as disbelieve. The proof resides in getting your hands dirty, your information factual, and the willingness to explore more than just a few avenues.

WHAT SCIENTIFIC TESTING!!????? Back yard mechanics trying to sell "enhancers"?

Canadian government shows it just isn't so. Dr. Frank, clearly a well educated man, and several other professionals have all said it doesn't work, it won't work.

Consumer affairs tells us it's poppycock.

Take the million dollar challange. In other words, put up or shut up. Show us DYNO results, not someone who drove a mere 20 miles down hill.


All of these device/schemes seem to promote adding hydrogen to improve the combustion process. There is no way it can improve fuel economy by 50%, or even 5%," said Dr. Robert Sawyer, Professor of Energy Emeritus at the University of California, Berkeley [/COLOR]

[COLOR="red"]This stuff has been around forever and it's been researched to death. It's a simple electrolyzer that could quite possibly cause more energy to be used than if you didn't use the device. It's as 'scammish' as anything I have ever seen," Asmus said.

[DigitalMocking]

What is the difference between the ideas peddled on here and the books peddled by "Ozzie"? It is all unproven, all nonsence, all a scam.

You and every other person on here not saying HHO is a scam is a con artist, you are another "Ozzie", out to defraud anyone stupid enough to listen.

Ozzie is a known scam artist, he's not trying to do any actual research, he's just trying to separate fools from their money. No one here is trying to sell any "e-books" or any shit like that, they give their information away for free trying to find the truth out. That's all I'm interested in.

[RMForbes]

I totally agree the Water4Gas type sites are giving us all a bad name. They are promoting a poorly designed system with email blasts and MLM type promotional style. Anyone can see it's a scam. The real problem is if someone builds one of their style units and the thing blows up and kills or maims someone the government will have an excuse to shut us all down.
I hope that most of us on this forum has progressed well past that level. If anyone here is still using glass jars, please stop. Producing an explosive gas in a glass jar is insanity.

[Smith03Jetta]

Scooter, I guess it just doesn't work. Quit, Go home... Give up. Work on solar or something... Stop wasting your time on something that OBVIOUSLY doesn't work... According to Canada!

[HYDROTEKPRO]

Earlier Quote:
Ozzie is a known scam artist, he's not trying to do any actual research, he's just trying to separate fools from their money. No one here is trying to sell any "e-books" or any **** like that, they give their information away for free trying to find the truth out. That's all I'm interested in.


I totally agree the Water4Gas type sites are giving us all a bad name. They are promoting a poorly designed system with email blasts and MLM type promotional style. Anyone can see it's a scam. The real problem is if someone builds one of their style units and the thing blows up and kills or maims someone the government will have an excuse to shut us all down.
I hope that most of us on this forum has progressed well past that level. If anyone here is still using glass jars, please stop. Producing an explosive gas in a glass jar is insanity.

I have neighbors who are VERY happy with their Water4Gas design systems they made and installed themselves.

While I agree that superior and more sophisticated designs (like ours:D) work better, not everybody can afford the top dollar HHO systems.

Ozzie and his Water4Gas company are actually responsible for opening up this huge can of worms for our beloved Big Oil companies! They (and other companies like them) have broken the worldwide silence about HHO. They have now made so many million people aware of, and experimenting with HHO, it is almost mainstream already! :)

What if there were never any Water4Gas type companies? How many of us still wouldn't know? Would this forum even be here? If you posted some YouTube HHO videos and noticed an unmarked van or SUV parked across the street the next day, would you believe it was a coincidence?

We should all be thanking Ozzie and the Water4Gas type companies for having big enough balls to stand up front and speak out for everybody, and to fight back against economic oppression from Big Oil, or any other special interest monopoly.

[Farmercal]

HYDROTEKPRO you have a good point. Although I feel the Ozzie thing was garbage, it was reading about his claims that led me to this forum. If my daughter hadn't told me about the water4gas thing I never would have found all the wonderful information on this site. Thanks Ozzie!

By the way, I didn't buy his book.

[bigapple]

HYDROTEKPRO you have a good point. Although I feel the Ozzie thing was garbage, it was reading about his claims that led me to this forum. If my daughter hadn't told me about the water4gas thing I never would have found all the wonderful information on this site. Thanks Ozzie!

By the way, I didn't buy his book.

I think there is way too much free information on this site and in the Smack's Boosters digital guide for someone to waste money on those e-books. Since one guy on here also discovered a hydroxy "encyclopedia," I think it's safe to say that buying those books might not be worth the 97 bucks.

[Scooterdog]

Scooter, I guess it just doesn't work. Quit, Go home... Give up. Work on solar or something... Stop wasting your time on something that OBVIOUSLY doesn't work... According to Canada!

Why would I work no something that has been proven time and time again not to work?

The same sales people on here, are on the water4gas forum as well. Scammers. :(

[Scooterdog]

More on this hho scam:


These product can damage engines. They do not work at all. The EPA knows this and has tested them and found that they are misleading and dishonest, and that they are at best useless. I am a motor engineer with 35 years experience with designing and modifying fuel systems.

I have many motor engineering friends and business associates who are very angry about these lies. I have 2, 500 automotive workshops as customers. Not one of them believes this crap. Problem is, if people do not understand the laws of thermo-dynamics they get sucked in and ripped off. I have all the test equipment to test these devices. Dyno, 5 gas emission analyzers and DEA MEA analyzers with D.link, so I can test all of them. I do not bother any more as I know the outcome. Please stop dealing with these fraudsters.

Here's more proof of the scam:


The Coast to Coast Am late night radio talk show, hosted nowadays by George Noory, often lends a sympathetic ear to those with a bizarre tale to tell or folks making outlandish claims. After being deluged with calls and emails to the show asking about assertions made of increasing gas mileage using kits such as those sold by Water4gas, (they claim to break water down into HHO and burn it along with your gasoline) George decided to try a "real life" experiment to see if it actually worked. With his producer's car.

It took some time for the results to come in but last night, after an update on the latest in alien implants, producer Tom Danheiser came on the air to let the audience of millions hear the result. Before installing the device under the hood of his Mustang, Danheiser calculated his gas mileage to be 17.99 mpg. After driving around with the device for a week his mileage went down to 16.56 mpg. To add insult to HHO hoax injury, he had to have his car serviced. Twice. The bottom line can be summed up with a pair of truisms; there is no free lunch and the laws of physics just aren't made to be broken.

[Source: Coast to Coast AM]

[bigapple]

More on this hho scam:

Here's more proof of the scam:

Nobody gives a flying **** about your degrees and your automotive education. So throwing those around gives you no bearing over anyone here. Stop being a jackass and just leave this forum respectfully rather than tearing down everyone here who has MADE it work.

Oh, by the way, I think you need to go spend a couple more hours in an English classroom because your education really shows through by the way you speak it. If you sound retarded no one will take you seriously, which is why pretty much everyone here is ignoring you. **** off.

[Scooterdog]

Nobody gives a flying **** about your degrees and your automotive education. So throwing those around gives you no bearing over anyone here. Stop being a jackass and just leave this forum respectfully rather than tearing down everyone here who has MADE it work.

Oh, by the way, I think you need to go spend a couple more hours in an English classroom because your education really shows through by the way you speak it. If you sound retarded no one will take you seriously, which is why pretty much everyone here is ignoring you. **** off.

With that foul mouth, you should be banned.

Funny, your opinion: " no one will take you seriously, which is why pretty much everyone here is ignoring you"

Lets see, my post has some 1849 hits. The only reason it went slower, is I was banned and some of the PROOF was removed.

You sound like a scammer losing money by persons such as myself who can prove this is bunk, that people promoting it are nothing more than scammers trying to take money from poor people who are looking for anything to help them.

With gas prices going even further down, Google being fed up with the scams, and the government investigating said scams and scammers, I'm sure it will all be over soon.

A pure hydrogen vehicle won't get the results some of you are making up to make you seem like you're somebody.

I'm sure when they were burning witches, and if someone at that time told those people, "look, they aren't posessed, they are just different", I suspect the same type attitude as above would be displayed. Shocking how ignorant people get so bent out of shape when someone with knowledge of things comes along. ;)

[Atm0spher]

hey scooter thank you for everything you have done for everyone here. its nay sayers like you that only push us further. ill leave you with this. i dare you to build a simple cell hell ill even give you mine hook it up for a week and prove to us that it didnt work. the only thing is, is that you cannot fudge the results. or go ahead an give us more excuses.

[Scooterdog]

hey scooter thank you for everything you have done for everyone here. its nay sayers like you that only push us further. ill leave you with this. i dare you to build a simple cell hell ill even give you mine hook it up for a week and prove to us that it didnt work. the only thing is, is that you cannot fudge the results. or go ahead an give us more excuses.

No excuses, just good science. Lets see if a simpleton can follow along.

By passing an electrical current through water, you can break the bonds that hold the atoms of hydrogen and oxygen together in the form of a water molecule.

This is good science and is a process that has been known since the 1800s.

To break these bonds however, requires a significant amount of electrical energy that must come from somewhere. In the case of the RYCOW systems, this energy has to come from the vehicle's alternator and in most cases, that limits the amount of available power to around 0.75-1.0KW.

Of course that 1KW or so also has to recharge the vehicle's battery, power the ignition, headlights etc, and run the various other accessories that abound in a modern car or truck.

So it's safer to assume that only around 600W is always available for the electrolysis cell, which is a maximum of around 50 amps.

Now if we delve into some more good science we find this formula for Faraday's First Law:

Vtheoretical (in m3) = (R I T t) / (F p z)

Where R=8.3414 Joule/(mol Kelvin), I=current(in amps), T=temp in Kelvin, t=time (in seconds) F=Faraday's constant = 96485 Coulombs per mol, p=ambient pressure (pascals), z=num of excess electrons.

If we plug some numbers into this formula and do some simple conversions then the following results appear:

237.1KJ is required to convert 1 Mole of water (18g) to H2/O2

To convert 1 Mole of water to gas via electrolysis will reuire 237.1KJ of energy

1 litre of H2O produces 55.55 Moles of H2 (1,358.3l) and 27.775 Moles (679.15l) of O2 (for a total volume of 2037.45l of H2/O2)

To convert 1 litre of H2O to H2 and O2 by electrolysis will require 3.658KWH
Of course all the above assumes a 100% efficiency and as we know this is simply not attainable with current materials and technology.

To get an idea as to how efficient the electrolysis process is when performed in a home-made electrolyser I found plenty of videos on YouTube where people proudly share their results.

This example is pretty typical so let's do the math:

12V x 40A ==> 480W

If we plug Faraday's First law into this figure, it suggest that in a 100% efficient cell we should be generating around 4.5 liters per minute of H2/O2 from 480W of electrical energy.

The cell in the YouTube video produces just 2.0 liters per minute, indicating an actual efficiency of around 44% - so we'll assume 50% efficiency for the rest of our calculations.

Now we need to take a look at some of the scientific research that demonstrates how hydrogen/oxygen enrichment can improve engine efficiency.

Now let's plug in some other figures and see if we can get a net-gain.

The engine in that paper was producing around 6.5HP at 1,500RPMs and needed 240 liters per hour (4 liters per minute) of H2/O2 gas.

An average auto engine will be capable of around 200HP and so a simple scaling would indicate that 30 times the 4lpm figure (or 120lpm) would be required to see the same 15% increase at full throttle. Of course we don't drive around at full throttle all the time so a safer figure to use would be the 20HP or so that an average-sized car requires to cruise at highway speeds.

20HP / 6.5HP = 3 times the horsepower so we'll need 3 times the fuel and three times the H2/O2 gas to see the same effect. That brings our H2/O2 requirement to 12.0 lpm.

Actually, at this stage we must also take into consideration that the engine in the paper was as diesel which uses significantly less fuel to create the same HP (due to the higher compression ratios and naturally more efficient cycle) -- that's why diesel vehicles get better MPGs than gasoline-powered ones. So we'll allow a very conservative additional 20% to account for the greater mass of gasoline required to produce the same power.

That lifts the H2/O2 gas requirement to 14.4 lpm.

Now we see that the addition of 14.4 lpm of H2/O2 should (according to the scientific reports) increase our engine's horsepower by 14.8%-15% (we already decided to use the latter figure).

We're assuming a 20HP requirement for cruise speed so once we add the 14.4 lpm of H2/O2 the engine will output an additional 20 x 0.15 = three horsepower.

So far so good.

Next we have to work out how much energy we'll be taking back in order to create those 14.4lpm of H2/O2.

If we use Faraday's First Law again to calculate that figure we discover that we need around 1,536 watts - but that's only if our electrolysis cell was 100% efficient, which it's not.

We've assumed an efficiency (based on real-world figures) of just 50% for the electrolysis process so we need to double that figure -- which gives us 3,072W of electrical energy required to generate sufficient H2/O2 to give us the maximum fuel-efficiency improvement at cruise speeds.

That 3,072W is 4.1 horsepower.

Uh-oh, it looks like we're spending 4.1 horsepower creating H2/O2 gas but only getting 3 horsepower back. That's a net *loss* of 1.1hp which mean's we'll actually burn *more* fuel than if we hadn't gone to all this trouble.

But wait... it gets worse...

That 4.1hp assumes that our alternator is 100% efficient in turning mechanical energy into electrical energy -- which it certainly is not.

An auto-style alternator is actually only around 60% efficient so the actual amount of horsepower we'll be sucking from the engine to power our cell is going to be around 6.8hp.

Now we find that the net energy return from these "H.H.O." systems is an even bigger. We're spending 6.8 horsepower to boost the engine's output by just 3 horsepower.

That missing 3.8 horsepower will have to come from burning *MORE* not less gasoline.

I'm sorry -- but those are the facts, there is the science.

I invite anyone to pick holes in my science or my math.

[Atm0spher]

well how about i give you my cell and i pay for your gas loss. how about that?

[DigitalMocking]

Your science and math aren't at fault, your reasoning is.

The point of HHO isn't to create energy. It's to get better use out of the energy in the gas you have in your tank. 30% of your fuel is currently unburned because it's needed to power the chemical reaction of your cat.

In many scientific applications, adding a catalyst to a reaction will often produce a far different result.

It's a fairly simple process:

add hho, more complete burn of the same fuel volume, allowing you to use less fuel to move the same distance because you don't need unburnt fuel in your system to work with your catalytic converter.

See, easy. You needn't regurgitate laws of thermodynamics. No one here is claiming to create energy from nothing.

[Scooterdog]

Your science and math aren't at fault, your reasoning is.

The point of HHO isn't to create energy. It's to get better use out of the energy in the gas you have in your tank. 30% of your fuel is currently unburned because it's needed to power the chemical reaction of your cat.

In many scientific applications, adding a catalyst to a reaction will often produce a far different result.

It's a fairly simple process:

add hho, more complete burn of the same fuel volume, allowing you to use less fuel to move the same distance because you don't need unburnt fuel in your system to work with your catalytic converter.

See, easy. You needn't regurgitate laws of thermodynamics. No one here is claiming to create energy from nothing.

So you admit to the loss by using hho? Or are you saying I'm incorrect?

[Scooterdog]

well how about i give you my cell and i pay for your gas loss. how about that?

Sure, I'll do it, after you put money in the bank for my new engine and the shop charge to change it out.

I'll drive right to the first dyno I can find, and show you what a crock of **** this whole hho thing really is.

[FuzzyTomCat]

Hi All,

Here is a posting from another site from me, I hope you may find it helpful in some little way.

The "requirement" to be polite goes back to the very best tradition in science, where it used to be assumed that honest, intelligent, well-meaning experimenters could hold unique, and divergent opinions and interpretations regarding the same, observed phenomena. No one was assumed to be "wrong" or "bad" because they held a differing opinion. It created an environment for lively debate and in-depth investigation. The only requirements for this environment to flourish were intelligence and civility.

This is a PUBLIC FORUM. Anyone in the world can view it. It would be SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE to leave posts that disparage a person's character in such a forum. NO ONE has the right to turn this forum into a billboard for their rude and uncivil behavior.

Thank you all for your precipitation in this Forum and this matter !

Regards,
Fuzzy

[bigapple]

With that foul mouth, you should be banned.

Funny, your opinion: " no one will take you seriously, which is why pretty much everyone here is ignoring you"

Lets see, my post has some 1849 hits. The only reason it went slower, is I was banned and some of the PROOF was removed.

You sound like a scammer losing money by persons such as myself who can prove this is bunk, that people promoting it are nothing more than scammers trying to take money from poor people who are looking for anything to help them.

With gas prices going even further down, Google being fed up with the scams, and the government investigating said scams and scammers, I'm sure it will all be over soon.

A pure hydrogen vehicle won't get the results some of you are making up to make you seem like you're somebody.

I'm sure when they were burning witches, and if someone at that time told those people, "look, they aren't posessed, they are just different", I suspect the same type attitude as above would be displayed. Shocking how ignorant people get so bent out of shape when someone with knowledge of things comes along. ;)

HAHAHA. Ok, so let me make this connection, all mighty. Because you've been ticking everyone off and being a smart*** and I had some balls to tell you what I thought, that makes me a witch hunter? Thats some true insight there big fella. Man I'm impressed with a man such as your caliber to grace us with your presence.

When did ANYONE say anything about running a car on hydrogen alone? Everyone knows that it's been proven to be inefficient and the power output is much lower than the power input. Good god man, I'm really starting to think you can't read. People are simply adding a less expensive fuel, backing off the mixture of fuel to air, and letting it run leaner. There may have been a select few on here (which I doubt) that have said something about a car on hydrogen alone, but to include every member of this site into that category is just an ignorant hasty generalization.

Everyone here is just thirsting for your divine intervention. So by all means, continue to feed us this captivating information in the nicest manner possible.

[bigapple]

I apologize for any rude words that were uttered from me. I only got to the point of aggravation because someone who doesn't believe in hydrogen-injection on a gasoline-powered car decides to come into a forum where people have CONCRETELY seen gains and bash everything that everyone in here stands for by regurgitating a bunch of factual science when it is being viewed from an entirely wrong standpoint.

He decides to throw around his degrees blah blah and tries to cut everyone down. All he is looking for is an answer he's never going to get. If he wants to hear someone tell him he's right, he's absolutely in the wrong place. Obviously he should know that since this site's sole purpose is for explaining hydrogen generators, how they work, and how they are supposed to be used to help a person save a little cash. Obviously it takes some work on other cars, but the fact that people have seen gains with their own two eyes (people who have done extensive research and none of that 300% increase bull) proves that it does work. It might not be the most efficient way to use the energy supplied by the alternator and battery but it obviously helps the engine run with less gasoline (not necessarily better).

Alright so to not divert the topic at hand here with my rant, obviously this stuff works so Scooter, just give up because the answer you seek isn't going to be told to you here. If you want to hear someone tell you "you're right," go find someone who hasn't researched this and hasn't done substantial testing to know that this works and have them tell you.

[Scooterdog]

I apologize for any rude words that were uttered from me. I only got to the point of aggravation because someone who doesn't believe in hydrogen-injection on a gasoline-powered car decides to come into a forum where people have CONCRETELY seen gains and bash everything that everyone in here stands for by regurgitating a bunch of factual science when it is being viewed from an entirely wrong standpoint.

He decides to throw around his degrees blah blah and tries to cut everyone down. All he is looking for is an answer he's never going to get. If he wants to hear someone tell him he's right, he's absolutely in the wrong place. Obviously he should know that since this site's sole purpose is for explaining hydrogen generators, how they work, and how they are supposed to be used to help a person save a little cash. Obviously it takes some work on other cars, but the fact that people have seen gains with their own two eyes (people who have done extensive research and none of that 300% increase bull) proves that it does work. It might not be the most efficient way to use the energy supplied by the alternator and battery but it obviously helps the engine run with less gasoline (not necessarily better).

Alright so to not divert the topic at hand here with my rant, obviously this stuff works so Scooter, just give up because the answer you seek isn't going to be told to you here. If you want to hear someone tell you "you're right," go find someone who hasn't researched this and hasn't done substantial testing to know that this works and have them tell you.

I guess you missed this or can't understand it:


Now we find that the net energy return from these "H.H.O." systems is an even bigger. We're spending 6.8 horsepower to boost the engine's output by just 3 horsepower.

That missing 3.8 horsepower will have to come from burning *MORE* not less gasoline.

I'm sorry -- but those are the facts, there is the science.

I invite anyone to pick holes in my science or my math.

I know it's hard for some of you, but if you can't understand it, should you really be putting steam in your engine?

Hydrogen has never been known as "browns gas". So, you are not using a hydrogen booster are you?

Certainly, hydrogen being run in a vehicle designed for GAS won't work worth a crap! A think a second grader could have told you that.

If you want to break from gas at the pump, you better pull that engine apart, and put the correct parts in it. They do it for propane, hydrogen, it stands to reason, if you going to suck steam into your engine, you will want to make the correct modifications.

[H2OPWR]

I guess you missed this or can't understand it:



I know it's hard for some of you, but if you can't understand it, should you really be putting steam in your engine?

Hydrogen has never been known as "browns gas". So, you are not using a hydrogen booster are you?

Certainly, hydrogen being run in a vehicle designed for GAS won't work worth a crap! A think a second grader could have told you that.

If you want to break from gas at the pump, you better pull that engine apart, and put the correct parts in it. They do it for propane, hydrogen, it stands to reason, if you going to suck steam into your engine, you will want to make the correct modifications.


If you are correct why are there kits all over the market to convert your car to dual fuel. Propane/Gasoline, Natural Gas/Gasoline. Etc. The fact is that an inturnal combustion engine will run on just about anything that will explode after being mixed with Oxygen and ignited. Why don't you ask BMW how they made a car that duals with hydrogen and gasoline. Do not give me any of your sh*t about HHO not being hydrogen. What do you think pure hydrogem is when mixed with air.

[Scooterdog]

If you are correct why are there kits all over the market to convert your car to dual fuel. Propane/Gasoline, Natural Gas/Gasoline. Etc. The fact is that an inturnal combustion engine will run on just about anything that will explode after being mixed with Oxygen and ignited. Why don't you ask BMW how they made a car that duals with hydrogen and gasoline. Do not give me any of your sh*t about HHO not being hydrogen. What do you think pure hydrogem is when mixed with air.

I never said you couldn't use duel fuel. What I said was, you can't simply hook this crap up to an engine not designed for it. The have different valve guides, valves, seats, pistons and rings. Also, it would have to adjust timing, as propane, hydrogen, and gas would be firing at different degree's.

If you know something about engines, you wouldn't look, well, like a fool asking such a rediculous question.

What do I think pure hydrogen mixed with "air" is? Hydrogen. That was a tough one! :rolleyes:

[Scooterdog]

Lets see what the Fuel Economy Admin. has to say about this:


ConsumerAffairs.com in the United States has published a thorough warning against the water4gas scam. The false and misleading information supplied by the water4gas proponents is very quickly going to get known as just what it is…

I really didn’t want to have to deal with this subject so suddenly, but repeated requests for info about ‘running your car on water’ or making ‘HHO’ aka ‘Brown’s Gas’ has prompted it.

The BCSEA e-mail list for discussion on energy topics has seen ‘water4gas’ get a respectable quantity of bytes. And on the way to Global TV on Monday I heard a guy from the Vancouver Gadgeteers on CBC Radio talk about a ‘water-hybrid’. I think the host Stephen Quinn knew something was hokey. The Gadgeteers were hosting two water4gas clinics in Vancouver Monday night.

Not stopping there… a customer of mine who had ordered a Scanguage, and a Service Advisor from a large company a friend works for are just two people in the last 24 hours that I have learned have bought the water4gas books. The Climate Action Dividend isn’t going to much good use it would seem?

So I sifted the internet for a good smackdown.

Here is ‘The proof that HHO is a scam’. It’s long, it might even be boring. But it is detailed. With rebuttals and counter-rebuttals. Lots of links and some scientific explanations. Make sure you read ‘A Reply to the HHO Scammers’ as well.

You could also check out a Discovery Channel ‘Mythbusters Forum’ discussion.

And oddly enough, the main online marketeer of the water4gas ’scam’, Ozzie Freedom, well, he used to promote a website called ‘magnet4cash.com’, which, get this, now refers you to…. water4gas.com!! (And yes, there is a reason I don’t provide ‘clickable links’ to internet detritus, but feel free to check it our for yourself.)

As an aside, I have been suggested to ready a lengthy article on the world of fuel savings devices… all the things that DON’T work. Soon… but in the meantime, remember, you hold the key to better mileage. Please see my ‘Hypermiling for better fuel economy’ article for some basic things you can do to go further on fuel.

I can get 100 mpg because I’ve started with an already fuel efficient vehicle, and then added driving techniques and real-time monitoring with a Scangauge fuel economy computer to the mix.

[Scooterdog]

Now, lets see what Consumer Affairs has to say:


What if you could install a small device under your car hood and improve your fuel economy by 50 percent? With today's soaring gas prices, a device like that sounds pretty good. Almost too good, in fact.

These widely-advertised devices, known variously as a "hydrogen generator" or "hydrogen booster," claim to be able to use electricity from your car battery to split water into its components of oxygen and hydrogen. This supposedly forms what is called "Browns Gas."

Scientists say the idea is preposterous, with one saying the energy created would "not amount to a hill of beans."

Perhaps the most notorious Web site promoting the concept is Water4Gas.com. Created by a gentleman who calls himself Ozzie Freedom, the site is a 12,000-word sales pitch for two electronic books advertised at $97.00.

The books supposedly explain how you can build your own system that will "…take EXCESS energy out of the car's battery or alternator (in other words very low current that the engine does not feel) and use this electricity to generate a very small amount of Hydrogen per minute. What that Hydrogen does is help split the gasoline/air mixture droplets into a finer mist - thus helping it burn more efficiently and more completely."

What kind of mileage improvements? Well, the Water4Gas site claims that you'll be able to double your gas mileage. However, one claim says that the system "has boosted MPG by as much as 185% on a Chevy 4WD truck…"

Mason jar
Those are pretty big claims for a device made out of a Mason jar and baking soda, so we contacted Water4Gas by both phone and e-mail, sending a list of questions to Mr. Freedom. Our inquiries went unanswered.

Doing a Web search for "water4gas" or "Ozzie Freedom" brings up page after page of search results and advertisements with headlines such as, "Is Water4Gas a Scam?" or "Water4Gas Reviewed," not to mention a wealth of videos that claim to show the device in action.

It doesn't take long to realize that the "articles" and "reviews" appear to be sales pitches masquerading as unbiased reviews. Some sites present themselves as mechanics giving free advice to motorists.

Presenting a possible clue as to where all these sites come from, a site called waterfuelx.com instructs sales affiliates on how to increase sales, recommending that the affiliate create a "review page" and list the waterfuelx product as the number one choice because "reviewing the product will mean monster [sales] conversions."

No experts

All of these hydrogen booster sites have one thing in common: Even though they claim the "hydrogen-booster process" has been around a hundred years, they don't include any scientific studies or expert testimony to support their claim that the process improves gas mileage.

In fact, the Water4Gas site specifically says that you shouldn't listen to "experts." Instead, Mr. Freedom says that you should just order his books.

And just who is the mysterious Mr. Freedom?

According to the bio on his Web site, he was formerly known as Eyal Siman-Tov, and Water4Gas is not his first online venture.

In 2006, he ran a Web site called Magnet4cash.com. It promised that you could "finance your wildest dreams WITHOUT loans," with the goal "to educate you on little-known methods to make fast cash legally…"

Mr. Freedom also invented the "Spongebee," which he describes as "the new all-American flying craze." Further, he is the founder of something called Sane Computers. That Web site has the headline, "New Mind-Blowing Invention Puts An End To... Your Computer Frustrations!"

Additionally, Freedom's portfolio lists many awards, including the "Sponsor For Total Freedom" by the International Association of Scientologists.

Scientists dismissive
Freedom's advice to ignore the experts notwithstanding, we checked in with a few.

"All of these device/schemes seem to promote adding hydrogen to improve the combustion process. There is no way it can improve fuel economy by 50%, or even 5%," said Dr. Robert Sawyer, Professor of Energy Emeritus at the University of California, Berkeley .

Dr. Sawyer said that he has been reviewing gas-saving devices since he first joined the faculty at UC-Berkeley, more than 40 years ago, and to see a change in MPG comes as no surprise.

"One would expect to see a small increase or decrease (a few percent) in fuel economy from all of these devices, purely the result of test variability. However, people will put a device on their car and automatically change the way they drive. This in itself will improve fuel economy simply because a person is driving slower, etc.," Sawyer said.

All of the experts we spoke with had serious problems with the wording on the Web sites promoting the Water4Gas concept.

"The Web sites I saw used a little bit of truth mixed in with a lot of false statements," said Dr. John Kramlich, Professor of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Washington College of Engineering. "People need to forget about all the 'testimonials' they see because the only way to know if a device helps at all is to use a dynamometer. You not only need to test the MPG, but also what is happening to the combustion process of the engine, and the test has to be done numerous times."

When we showed the instructions and claims to Dr. Andrew A. Frank, he had difficulty holding back the laughter.

"It shows the desperation people feel!" said Frank, Professor of Mechanical and Aeronautical Engineering at the University of California, Davis.

"This has been around for years, but it didn't work back then and it won't work now," Dr. Frank said. "It's such a very small amount of hydrogen-oxygen gas that it is impossible to have any real effect on combustion."

Frank went on to relay a story from his youth.

"Back in the 50's, water injection was a big thing because the P-51 Mustang aircraft used the process. The P-51 used a very high engine compression and on heavy loads, the engine would knock. The water injection did give the P-51 engine more power and it stopped the knocking."

"Curious people like me started to modify our own cars, and guess what? It did get rid of the knocking, but it also took a ton of water. It also messed up the timing because internal combustion engines aren't designed for these things. In short, all it did was create a negative force on the engine, even though the knocking stopped."

We asked Dr. Frank about all the positive "reviews" and "testimonials" that have flooded the Internet.

"A normal everyday driver can't accurately measure the MPG of their car. Each tank of gas might vary the MPG by as much as 20%, based on the time of day, road conditions, etc.," Frank stated.

"I saw one 'test' that showed a driver filling up the tank, driving 20 miles and then stopping to top off the tank. You can't measure anything this way because the air in the tank could easily be 100% off."

Dr. Frank also made note of what every other expert has said — a car battery can't create enough energy to have any measurable effect.

"These devices simply cannot generate enough hydrogen or oxygen to amount to a hill of beans. A 12-volt car battery might create some bubbles, but beyond that, a standard car battery isn't powerful enough to do anything," he said.

"Here's a good example that people should keep in mind," Frank said. "Even with the most expensive and sophisticated energy recovery systems, such as on some diesel trucks, you will only see about a 5% increase in fuel mileage."

In fact, some Canadian truckers use hydrogen boosters, but they shell out up to $15,000 for the technology. In addition, the Canadian government performed scientific testing on the device and found that it reduced fuel consumption by only 4%.

David Greene, energy expert and Corporate Fellow at Oak Ridge National Laboratory concurred. He said that yes, people can see an improvement, but "the potential for efficiency improvement by more rapid combustion is nowhere near the kinds of claims these Web sites make."

Side effects
Even if a person could tweak a device to get a few percent improvements in MPG, what kind of other problems might they be causing?

"You are also causing the engine to work harder, plain and simple," said Greene.

The experts also said to be wary of Web sites that use selective "studies" to promote their product. Many sites are referencing material from the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).

"I'm very active with that group and often times the SAE papers have a very narrow scope," said Dr. Thomas Asmus, retired Senior Research Executive with DaimlerChrysler Corporation and a current member of the Fuel Economy Panel for the National Academy of Science. "These hydrogen-on-demand Web sites are picking and choosing which SAE factoids to use, but if you added it all up, you would have nothing."

A recognized expert in fuel efficiency and engine combustion, Dr. Asmus said that these devices, "mix in a little hydrogen with fuel and can make a difference, but considering the amount of water used and that we're talking about a 12-volt battery, the maximum improvement (if any) would be no more than 2%."

And what about the claims of this being "suppressed" technology?

"This stuff has been around forever and it's been researched to death. It's a simple electrolyzer that could quite possibly cause more energy to be used than if you didn't use the device. It's as 'scammish' as anything I have ever seen," Asmus said.

[wljohns]

scooterdog =big oil puppet

[bigapple]

Wow, this dude just doesn't give up. Instead of making millions and millions of dollars with his excellent degrees, he decides to spend his time throwing numbers and theories around in an online forum. Are you serious man? REALLY? If you're so respectable and so smart, go somewhere where your degrees and education matter.

[wljohns]

Ya know, been thinking. THIS forum must really be making a difference or "THEY" would not be sending the goons this way.

[HiTechRedNeck73]

scooterdog =big oil puppet


Ya know, been thinking. THIS forum must really be making a difference or "THEY" would not be sending the goons this way.

x2, I agree... "THEY" must be pretty ticked off at us...

[DigitalMocking]

So you admit to the loss by using hho? Or are you saying I'm incorrect?

Of course it takes energy in the form of horsepower to create HHO gas. Anyone claiming otherwise is insane. The point of HHO is to change the burn properties of your F/A mixture.

[Scooterdog]

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble! Man, either you guys are part of this scam, or are to stupid to realize you've been taken!

Canada, Berkly, Consumer Affairs, Popular Mechanics, all prove it 's bunk. You scammers try to throw out real science and technology, and replace it with lies. Lies, lies, all lies.

Not one of you have gone into a school, with a dyno, and had them test your bunk products(and you won't), then have one of the professors conductiing the test go before a public notary, and sign a SWORN AFFIDAVIT! Why? Because you and I both know what will happen.

Yep, I work in the oil field, and make tons of money. Cry me a river! People who blame thier faults in life on industries are showing their true colors. Hell, if it worked, I'd be on the bandwagon as well, but it doesn't. It's been tested for almost 100 years, by people with REAL knowledge, and the money to do REAL testing. You guys in your shops(or basements) are just part of the scam, taking money from folks who are looking for some kind of help. Parasites, plain and simple.

Prove my math wrong, prove my technology wrong. Get a sworn affidavit. I guess that's asking to much from the shysters.

[Roland Jacques]

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble! Man, either you guys are part of this scam, or are to stupid to realize you've been taken!

Canada, Berkly, Consumer Affairs, Popular Mechanics, all prove it 's bunk. You scammers try to throw out real science and technology, and replace it with lies. Lies, lies, all lies.

Not one of you have gone into a school, with a dyno, and had them test your bunk products(and you won't), then have one of the professors conductiing the test go before a public notary, and sign a SWORN AFFIDAVIT! Why? Because you and I both know what will happen.

Yep, I work in the oil field, and make tons of money. Cry me a river! People who blame thier faults in life on industries are showing their true colors. Hell, if it worked, I'd be on the bandwagon as well, but it doesn't. It's been tested for almost 100 years, by people with REAL knowledge, and the money to do REAL testing. You guys in your shops(or basements) are just part of the scam, taking money from folks who are looking for some kind of help. Parasites, plain and simple.

Prove my math wrong, prove my technology wrong. Get a sworn affidavit. I guess that's asking to much from the shysters.


Why don’t you do a very simple test. It would be hard to argue with the results. Heres a cheap and easy test anyone can do. (best of all it non subjective, and no ECU to mess up results)


1. Take a small gas powered generator. Run it with a steady load, say 3000 watts (6- 500 watt lamps from harbor freight $20) also hook up an analog clock to it.

Then run it and see how long it takes to use 1 liter of gas.

2. Then repeat. This time with the added load of a battery charger running a HOD gen producing 1 LPM. Run the hho into the intake, & time the run. (Be careful of detonation you may have reduce LPM's)

3. Repeat 1 & 2 three times and see what you come up with.

I wish i still had access to a generator id like to video this test.

[Scooterdog]

Why don’t you do a very simple test. It would be hard to argue with the results. Heres a cheap and easy test anyone can do. (best of all it non subjective, and no ECU to mess up results)


1. Take a small gas powered generator. Run it with a steady load, say 3000 watts (6- 500 watt lamps from harbor freight $20) also hook up an analog clock to it.

Then run it and see how long it takes to use 1 liter of gas.

2. Then repeat. This time with the added load of a battery charger running a HOD gen producing 1 LPM. Run the hho into the intake, & time the run. (Be careful of detonation you may have reduce LPM's)

3. Repeat 1 & 2 three times and see what you come up with.

I wish i still had access to a generator id like to video this test.

That will prove what? Why not put it on a dyno, so we can see exactly what is going on at each stage? Probably because those results can't be argued.

[Boltazar]

I'm very supprised that this person is still here AND that we respond to him. I actually feel sorry for this person, why would someone repetedly reply in this fassion over and over again? Lonelyness, confrontational, ignorance. I'd like to suggest we ignore his posts and get on with improving our HHO production.

[pj91gsx]

most likely scooterdog just wants to see it work, he wants to know if it works or not, and a simple answer yes is not good enough for him, he want to see the improvements in front of him. He should read Mr. Smiths experiment in HHO.

[Scooterdog]

Well, I suspect there are less than 50 actual members that make these claims, using several different screen names to further the scam. Kinda like all the vids on youtube, and the "testimonials", none of which are made by a credible source, comitted to an affidavit sworn to infront of a notary. If it worked, someone surely would have done this by now. (I suppose the charge of perjury prevents this from happening) :rolleyes:

It's not hard to pick on the ones involved in the scam, they get so upset because it's affecting their "income". The scammers are the onces making the rediculous claims, and people who have been taken by the scam probably feel to stupid to stand up and say something. Thats usually how these things work, small investment into bunk junk, and they know most people are to embarrased to admit they got took, so the scam continue's on. Rather sad if you ask me. :(

[Roland Jacques]

1. Take a small gas powered generator. Run it with a steady load, say 3000 watts (6- 500 watt lamps from harbor freight $20) also hook up an analog clock to it.

Then run it and see how long it takes to use 1 liter of gas.

2. Then repeat. This time with the added load of a battery charger running a HOD gen producing 1 LPM. Run the hho into the intake, & time the run. (Be careful of detonation you may have reduce LPM's)

3. Repeat 1 & 2 three times and see what you come up with.

I wish i still had access to a generator id like to video this test.


That will prove what?

That would PROVE, ether HOD allows the gasoline in a ICE last longer, and or go father or not in a ICE.

Why not put it on a dyno, so we can see exactly what is going on at each stage? Probably because those results can't be argued


1. Dynos testing is not cheap or easy.
2. Dyno testing an auto would still have computer and sensor issues to deal with. So you could not tell weather the gains or lack of gains was due to the HHO or the computer.
3 Because of the computer and sensors the results could be argued.


If the generator (an ICE) ran 170 minutes, with the HOD system on.
And only 100 minutes without HOD. Both only using 1 liter of gas (the same amount of fuel.) What would you conclude?

[Scooterdog]

If the generator (an ICE) ran 170 minutes, with the HOD system on.
And only 100 minutes without HOD. Both only using 1 liter of gas (the same amount of fuel.) What would you conclude?

Thats just rediculous. That has nothing whatsoever to do with claims of 50mpg using hho.

Each tank of gas varies as much as 20%. A dyno is a proven method, this little test of yours is more smoke and mirrors.

[pj91gsx]

Well, I suspect there are less than 50 actual members that make these claims, using several different screen names to further the scam. Kinda like all the vids on youtube, and the "testimonials", none of which are made by a credible source, comitted to an affidavit sworn to infront of a notary. If it worked, someone surely would have done this by now. (I suppose the charge of perjury prevents this from happening) :rolleyes:

It's not hard to pick on the ones involved in the scam, they get so upset because it's affecting their "income". The scammers are the onces making the rediculous claims, and people who have been taken by the scam probably feel to stupid to stand up and say something. Thats usually how these things work, small investment into bunk junk, and they know most people are to embarrased to admit they got took, so the scam continue's on. Rather sad if you ask me. :(

ok. whatever. I have a guy in my hometown that has a booster getting 27 mpgs on a ranger. He started at 17 mpgs. You can say what you want, If you think its a scam why are you on here and where did you come from. Who are you working for?

[Scooterdog]

ok. whatever. I have a guy in my hometown that has a booster getting 27 mpgs on a ranger. He started at 17 mpgs. You can say what you want, If you think its a scam why are you on here and where did you come from. Who are you working for?

Ya, sure you do. Why don't you put it on your vehicle then. I've said it a hundred times, the only gains you are getting is from leaning out the engine which will destroy it over time.

" I gotta friend who has a cousin and his sister said" ya, whatever.

[pj91gsx]

Ya, sure you do. Why don't you put it on your vehicle then. I've said it a hundred times, the only gains you are getting is from leaning out the engine which will destroy it over time.

" I gotta friend who has a cousin and his sister said" ya, whatever.

ya know thats funny. because the reason for a motor destroying when leaning is due to a lot of heat. this injection turns back to water, so it will it will cool the motor.

[scrode]

Ya, sure you do. Why don't you put it on your vehicle then. I've said it a hundred times, the only gains you are getting is from leaning out the engine which will destroy it over time.

" I gotta friend who has a cousin and his sister said" ya, whatever.

So that's where you get your info makes more sense now hahahahahahah

[Scooterdog]

So that's where you get your info makes more sense now hahahahahahah

You are a few fries short of a happy meal. Thats how the hho scammers talk constantly on here, kinda like you.

[Roland Jacques]

If the generator (an ICE) ran 170 minutes, with the HOD system on.
And only 100 minutes without HOD. Both only using 1 liter of gas (the same amount of fuel.) What would you conclude?



Thats just rediculous. That has nothing whatsoever to do with claims of 50mpg using hho.

Each tank of gas varies as much as 20%.

NOT true, in the generator, the load is constant and not subject to driving habits, road conditions, no leaning out (simple carburator) … it does not vary much at all

A dyno is a proven method, this little test of yours is more smoke and mirrors.


So you would not conclude ANYTHING???

[Scooterdog]

ya know thats funny. because the reason for a motor destroying when leaning is due to a lot of heat. this injection turns back to water, so it will it will cool the motor.

I guess if you're adding water to a motor you are lost. Motors and engines are two different things.

[scrode]

I guess if you're adding water to a motor you are lost. Motors and engines are two different things.

talk about short a few fries, better than a few brain cells there bud, your picking things apart just to satisfy your lack of intelligence.

[Scooterdog]

talk about short a few fries, better than a few brain cells there bud, your picking things apart just to satisfy your lack of intelligence.

Ya, that's why your setting at home, sponging off the government. While, I, on the other hand, make money hand over fist for what I KNOW.

Anytime you wish to go to ANY university, and take a test, we would see just who has a higer I.Q. I have three degree's, and a job where I dismiss worms like you on a whim. When you reach my tax bracket, and have the education I have, then maybe, I'll listen to what you have to say. Everything thus far has been lies, smart ass remarks, and a little crying mixed in. Now go back to your video games kid.

[pj91gsx]

ban scooterdog someone. just go home. leave us alone. we dont care what you say.

[Scooterdog]

ban scooterdog someone. just go home. leave us alone. we dont care what you say.

Good lord, should be burn books with knowledge as well?????

[Scooterdog]

More proof it's all smoke and mirrors:


GREENVILLE, S.C. -- Can a gas-saving device being sold on the Internet actually double your fuel mileage, as the makers claim?

As promised, the Mason jar filled with water and baking soda began to produce a hydrogen, and seemed to give the car an extra burst of energy. But officials said 2-3 weeks of road-testing would be required to see if the water4gas system increased mileage.

Now, three weeks later, the final test results are in.

"No. It did not improve mileage," said Sumner Huckaby, Dean of Greenville Tech's Center for Automotive Technology.

In fact, officials said they noticed a mileage decrease after installing the water4gas device.

" It dropped 2 miles per gallon," said automotive instructor Preston Howard.

The results are sure to disappoint thousands of News 4 viewers, who were hopeful the water4gas system would work.

In the past three weeks, News 4 has been inundated with emails from people looking to ease their pain at the pump.

"The system we built was the average Joe system. Very cheap. Very non-technical," said Howard.

[pj91gsx]

More proof it's all smoke and mirrors:

did they leak test that booster?

[HYDROTEKPRO]

Ya know, been thinking. THIS forum must really be making a difference or "THEY" would not be sending the goons this way.



YA THINK?? This is such an old school political campaign tactic, been used for decades. Just permanently ban the sell-out. Does freedom of speech include freedom to upset, offend and antagonize?? NO, I DON'T THINK SO.

Who cares how many hundred thousand shares of Chevron and GM he has? Does it matter? NO. He has demonstrated dozens of times the side of his allegiance(Big Oil & Big Auto), and the side of his enemy(all of us free thinkers here on this and other sites:D), and what his goal on this forum is. Should be pretty plainly obvious by now.

So does this mean that anybody has permission to join this forum and try to undermine and disrupt it????:confused::confused:

Just permanently ban him, and every other member that he registers as (which will of course be obvious by now), and all the sell-outs that will follow him trying to do the same. Is that too much to ask??:mad:

[HYDROTEKPRO]

...

Yep, I work in the oil field, and make tons of money. Cry me a river! People who blame thier faults in life on industries are showing their true colors...

He finally gives a partial admission. So 2+2=?

2+sh*t=8, LOL

Don't be so trusting with sellouts like him. He's totally demonstrated why he's here, what team he is on (NOT ours), etc. Suggesting that he do an honest test and provide us the results, how ridiculous can this get?:rolleyes: If we need slapstick, we can watch reruns of the 3 Stooges or Laurel & Hardy. Do we really need to entertain this creep??:confused:

[hg2]

This guy has been banned for the second and hopefully last time.This is the first forum I've been on that would allow such a rude member return to dish out more misguided propaganda and knife cutting insults.I would hope the moderators and administrators will police their forum better in the future.This also goes for the people here that were only feeding his ego by further fueling the problem arguing with him.I know some of you meant well defending what we strongly believe in,but if there is a next time(and I hope like heck there's not)just go about business as usual,pay no attention(only what he wants)and he'll get bored and move on.

Thanks
Rusty

[Bill Bailey]

The problem F**** HEADS like snoop dog (what an apt name ) has is,They always go to far.

He has just been booted off the W4G forum because of his rabid attacks
and fowl mouth . But you can rest assured he will be back in a new
GUISE as the authority on all things automotive , and from this moral
high ground he will proceed to sew doubt and discontent as he always does.
I wonder what his next STAGE NAME will be, and I wonder what fantastic
educational standards he will DREAM up for him self in his new phony image.

I do hope the oil Co. that sponsors him kick's his bum for going to far
( again ) and making them go to the trouble of inventing another identity
for him.

I am sure his sponsor, "SHAKE YA DOODLE" back in Arabia is displeased.
But there you go ! They always go to far , Don't they???? :D