inverter

[DOUBLEL]

I want to use a inverter to go from 12 to 110 and back to 12, anyone know a easyway to do this?

[donnylynn]

I suppse you could plug a battery charger into your inverter.
But the uestion I have to ask is "Why?" You will loose efficiency in each conversion.

[DOUBLEL]

doing research and unless I misunderstand found that Meyers and others are using this method to up the voltage and keep lower amperage to up production. of course, You would have to use more plates.

[Atm0spher]

i was just doing this last night. i have been blowing rectiviers like craizy. i am now using a 40 amp rectifier. i borrowed a friends 1000w converter and was running it on a 13.4v 55a power supply and the converter triped instantly. i started to wonder exactly how big of plates the 1000W would handle and finally quit when got down to two razorblades 1/4" apart and the damn thing was still tripping. and i was only using tap water you would need like a 5000W inverter and thoes are like $250 - $300. 110v dc is fun to play around with though. it sure will let off those bubbles. i think my cell is putting off more with 12v 30a than with 109v at what ever amps. i dont have an ac amp meter.

[Atm0spher]

sorry i didnt read it that close. why 12 to 110 and back.

[DOUBLEL]

I should have said back to DC not 12 volt.

[Atm0spher]

how big of an inverter are you going to use. you can make your own bridge rectifer or just buy a pre made one. radioshaq has them. if you want to make your own look for rectifier diods. there are schematics on the web. i started with an 8A blew that and went to a 25A blew that in less than 60 sec. now i just bought a 40 amp one and it gets smokin hot after like 2 min. i have 120v ac going in and about 110v dc after the rectifer. i just used an old extention cord for the ac power. but i think meyers was using really high voltage and almost no amprage instead of brute force. i could be completly wrong on that one though.

[Cadillac]

What is with all the voltage?

[hg2]

What is with all the voltage?

Most applications using higher voltage are with cell designs with a high number of plates(up to 100)requiring higher voltage.12vdc is converted to 110ac using a 60 hertz inverter then converted to pulsing dc through whats called a diode bridge.Bob Boyce cells were some of the ones using this type of high voltage

[atfab]

Still why?

Assume a HHO generator at 13.7v drawing 15a.

To compare it to another one at a different voltage, you need to figure the total power used.

This would be watts. Watts are the volts times the amps, for the above, this is 205w.

Assume also your high voltage cell's output is the same as the low volt one.

120v X 1.71A = 205w. BUT you converted your power twice(DC to AC and AC to DC), with the losses of each conversion, so you will actually need more total watts for equal output.

Your HHO generator would have to be more efficient to compensate for the additional losses.

I would work on the low volt generator, to up the output before going to the expense and losses of the conversions. A good PWM to limit amps at least is only one conversion backwards.

[hg2]

High voltage is used for electrolysers of high efficiency.High performance is in the application of 1.5 vdc using 316Lss plates.The cell design uses 101 6"x6" plates,which works out this way-1.5vdcx100(cells)= 150vdc to attain the maximum pulsed output.To get this high voltage you need a 60 hertz 110vac inverter powered by 12vdc input.This 110 vac output is then converted to 150v pulsing direct current through what called a diode bridge consisting of 4 diodes.
This type cell is very efficient but applying to a vehicle is the problem due to the extreme amperage draw,but very efficient nevertheless.

[Atm0spher]

one thought is that if you use a high enuogh voltage at a low low amperage to compensate for the work that the amperage is doing in a brute force cell that you could possibly end up using less power to run the cell. basicly your using the voltage to split the water not the apmerage. From what i understand.

[hg2]

one thought is that if you use a high enuogh voltage at a low low amperage to compensate for the work that the amperage is doing in a brute force cell that you could possibly end up using less power to run the cell. basicly your using the voltage to split the water not the apmerage. From what i understand.

The only problem if I read you right is anything much over 2 volts is going to be wasted generating heat and more steam than hydroxy.Are you saying to use higher voltage than 2 volts per cell and using less amps also?

[atfab]

hg2 and Atm0spher,

Sirs, you are both technically correct, but incomplete.

Obviously the high voltage cell will have a somewhat different design. Meyers did much more than simply raise the voltage. There were many other components of his electrical and mechanical systems that had positive effects on his efficiency. You can not compare a simple inverter / rectifier system to his work.

Even the very best inverters will draw more power than they deliver (PWMs too). Most of the ones sold for automotive use are very inefficient and a lot will make your audio system useless from the electrical noise they create. Rectifier bridges have known, measurable voltage drops and heat losses.

Your cell would need to be efficient enough to overcome the added losses just to break even. Smacks latest 18 plate design has overcome most of the problems of overheating and still is easy and cheap to build / replace. Good inverters are not cheap; this will stretch out your payback window also.

I am not a troll, nor am I a novice at electronics or automotive mechanics. I simply wished to point out some of the real concerns of using a high voltage system in an automotive application.

With all due respect,
atfab

[Boltazar]

I want to use a inverter to go from 12 to 110 and back to 12, anyone know a easyway to do this?

Would a 2000w car stereo amp work for you

[hg2]

hg2 and Atm0spher,

Sirs, you are both technically correct, but incomplete.

Obviously the high voltage cell will have a somewhat different design. Meyers did much more than simply raise the voltage. There were many other components of his electrical and mechanical systems that had positive effects on his efficiency. You can not compare a simple inverter / rectifier system to his work.

Even the very best inverters will draw more power than they deliver (PWMs too). Most of the ones sold for automotive use are very inefficient and a lot will make your audio system useless from the electrical noise they create. Rectifier bridges have known, measurable voltage drops and heat losses.

Your cell would need to be efficient enough to overcome the added losses just to break even. Smacks latest 18 plate design has overcome most of the problems of overheating and still is easy and cheap to build / replace. Good inverters are not cheap; this will stretch out your payback window also.

I am not a troll, nor am I a novice at electronics or automotive mechanics. I simply wished to point out some of the real concerns of using a high voltage system in an automotive application.

With all due respect,
atfab


I wasn't describing a meyers cell I was describing one built by Bob Boyce.And I think both (if Stan was still alive) men would be more than offended to have their work and designs compared to a smack's booster.Yeah the 18 plate smack has less heat but by adding 2 more plates it just lowered the voltage thus reducing hydroxy ammount produced and so making it less efficient.
If you want to further your education on efficency go to the Oupower.com forum they'll fix you right up.And if you do I'd refrain from mentioning smacks booster and the word efficiency in the same sentence.

[atfab]

Sorry hg2, it was a third party that mentioned Meyers. Boyce also has done more with his electronics than simply raise the voltage, so the point still stands.

I am by no means an advocate of the Smacks booster, I only used it as an example of a simple, inexpensive generator. Most of the people hurt by our current fuel prices do not have the time, money or skill to extract every bit of efficiency out of a given design. Smack seems to understand this and freely shares his design. Pablum for the masses, yes but many saving a little is still quite a lot, in the larger scheme of things.

I lurk in many HHO sites and choose to not be swayed by most of the complicated, hard to maintain and duplicate systems for anything other than their technical merit. The reward for them is in the future, when the systems can be mass produced at a reasonable cost, for the masses.

HHO/HOD systems had a small boom in the early 1970s gas crunch, but we didn't have the internet for the masses then and the sharing of information was not widely available. I spent countless hours in my employer's technical library attempting to find what few practical scraps of data there were.
Learning to tune a ICE for economy became the faster return and I used this to my personal advantage and shared my positive results then, as I do now. My "49 state" 1976 Plymouth, 225 six, passed the strict California smog test with the EGR bypassed in 1978. This was after the State run testing site told me I had to replace the carb and add an air pump, at an $800 estimate. My only pre-test changes were new spark plugs, oil change and an air filter. This was after driving it from Connecticut with the wife, child and an over loaded trunk, at an average of 30 MPG.

I have used my formal education in electronics and my hot-rod mentality ever since. HHO is not new to me and electrolysis was part of work experience for years. Boyce, Meyers and a host of others are my heros. Ironhead and the current group he is with are always watched.

Look at the header on this page again and you will perhaps better understand my methods and approach to these things.

[hg2]

I believe this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.By that I mean your post grossly lacked information in regards to high voltage systems.You were quick to point out mine and atmosphers posts as being incomplete for lack of explanation into the way high voltage cells work.Yet saw no mention in your post with explanations such as interwoven square waves for harmonnics using pseudo-sine wave inverters allowing the tweaking of hz. for maximum efficiency.How inverters can be modified to include adjustments of the harmonics frequencies and why controller drivers like it are required for maximum efficiency.The list goes on and on almost without end,So this is why I feel sir we are both guilty of not giving a full explanation,but the person that started this thread in my opinion wasn't looking for a longwinded explanation,and I'm sure that's at least one thing we both can agree on.

I make my technical posts as brief and desciptive as possible.You need to remember that not everyone using this forum can understand your explanation if you go too deep into electronics,and the average joe with little or no electronics background will be lost and have learned nothing.

[atfab]

I guess you still don't understand, My reply to the first poster and you was simple and accurate. Not the technicial hyperbole you just posted yet protest that it is somehow more informative. You have taken everything I have said to the extreme and then some.

I advised the poster that there were issues known by many to be resolved in his question. The poster mentioned Meyers and I explained that there was more to equation than he posted and offered an alternative approach. They did not reply.

Since you seem to know every thing about HHO I will not reply to you again. I, for one, admit that I do not know everything and most likely never will. Perhaps, one day you will learn this also.

You get one last reply.

Good day, Sir.

[hg2]

I want to use a inverter to go from 12 to 110 and back to 12, anyone know a easyway to do this?

DoubleL please accept my apology for straying off topic and engaging in irrelevant discussions on your thread.Rarely do I let myself get caught up in nonproductive discussions and you have my word it won't occur again.

I have to do some digging to find more info for you on the use of inverters with hho production.I seem to recall an easier method of applying it,but won't know for sure until I find the info on it.I started to look into that(high voltage) over a year ago and have it stashed somewhere in my pile of notes.When I do locate the info I'll pm it to you.

[DOUBLEL]

no need for an apology, I am actually in the process of building a painless design cell with wall plates to see what kind of results I can get, if it works out I have 21 plates that are 3 x 7 that I will use for the same design, I have to get some return from all of this, I didnt do enough research before I started building cells so I wasted alot of money.
I would like to Thank everyone that helps out other people on this site.

[hg2]

no need for an apology, I am actually in the process of building a painless design cell with wall plates to see what kind of results I can get, if it works out I have 21 plates that are 3 x 7 that I will use for the same design, I have to get some return from all of this, I didnt do enough research before I started building cells so I wasted alot of money.
I would like to Thank everyone that helps out other people on this site.

I understand what you mean,I've spent plenty in a little under 2 years.And if you were to try your luck with high voltage,that's a system you can dump a bunch into.High voltage isn't for the faint at heart,you really need a few years experimenting with basic hho generators before tackling a project that complex.Good luck with the Painless design,he seems to be having good results with it.