Tushar’s Hybrid Project

[tbhavsar]

Current Setup:

1) Installed in Honda Accord 1995 LX (Current Miles 163,000)

2) One booster with “+ N N - -N N +” with SS wall plates and 1/16 gap using nylon

3) Gas output > 0.75 LPM (but < 1 LPM) (is this enough?)

(I Checked for leaks with soap water and fixed it)

4) 15 amp starting current going up to 30 amp after 10-15 minutes of driving

5) Gas out to location close to filter unlike close to Manifold or PCV
valve (I am still contemplating) about using PCV Hose; not sure…

6) MPG before Install was 28 approx.

Results:

1) Percentage gain ? (none so far)

2) MPG (After Install)? (none so far)

Next Steps:
1) Remove current Gas Out that is close to Air filter and change
location close to Intake Manifold.

2) Install Anti Fouling Spacer (O2 Extender) on the Catalytic Converter;
There are two O2 Sensors; one in the front by engine and one in the
catalytic Converter.

3) Seal plate edges with Rubber Splice Tape from home depot to reduce current leaks

4) Add cooling thru electrolyte circulation (taking advantage of thermal-pressure)

Questions:
1) Is my Gas output > 0.75 LPM (but < 1 LPM) enough?

2) Should I install O2 Extender (on first O2 Sensor i.e. close to
engine)

3) Should I install EFIE or MAF enhancer


Thanks for your help in Advance.

[H2OPWR]

Only the front 02 sensor controls fuel. The one after the cat just compares signels to check cat effeciency. Sealing your cell for current leakage will help HHO output greatly. Your car will have either a MAP or a MAF sensor. Either one modifies the same way. Just splice into the wire and add a 40 to 50k ohm pentiometer in line to lower the voltage goung to the ECM. Be very careful. If you run your engine too lean you WILL BURN HOLES IN THE PISTON'S.

[resago]

you need more neutrals.

[tbhavsar]

I have extended gas output upto intake manifold now; will post results in few days. please check out pics here;

http://picasaweb.google.com/tbhavsar/IntakeInjectionImproved#

[scrode]

I had to use a map enhancer to achieve gains on my 2002 Honda Accord LX
was 28 before now averages 40+ mpg. and I put the gas out right after the map sensor unit on the intake.

[tbhavsar]

I had to use a map enhancer to achieve gains on my 2002 Honda Accord LX was 28 before now averages 40+ mpg. and I put the gas out right after the map sensor unit on the intake.

Congrats!

Since you only got results after installing the MAP enhancer how do you know that the booster made any difference? What would happen if you removed your gas generator?

[scrode]

with booster and no map enhancer my mileage went to shit below 28 mpg (wife drives 100 miles every day to work and back, I'm retired). It probably would be better mileage with just the enhancer,( I didn't notice much) but you run the risk of burning valves. and you don't get the performance increase that you do with the hho additive to gas. When I first installed the system and was working out the bugs (like where to put the gas-in line). it definitely made a difference when I connected to the vacuum compared to the air filter side of the intake (no vacuum). so yes the hho does make a difference beyond just the enhancer IMHO.;)

just a side note my accord has over 169,000 miles. The system has saved us hundreds of $ a month since installing the hho system. (about 3 months)

[Painless]

Hi Tushar,

Good to see you got your own thread going.

I've just read through and taken a look at your pictures, I have a few comments for you:

1. You definitely need more neutrals in your setup, currently (no pun intended!) you will be generating unneeded heat due to too much voltage per plate. I would suggest four or five neutrals in each series set in your design.

2. I ran my HHO line to deliver gas right at the base of the throttle body where it will get a good vacuum. You could also build yourself a small venturi to deliver it through to enhance same.

3. From the pics (looked at them on my blackberry so I might be mistaken) it looks like your HHO delivery hose is running close to your engines heads. I would suggest securing it with nylon zip ties well away from the hotter parts of the engine for safety.

4. Are you using a bubbler at all? I would definitely suggest this for flashback support alone.

Question: what are you using for your catalyst?

Hope this helps!

Russ.

[Smith03Jetta]

Here's my "Opinion". JUST AN OPINION...

If you lean out your fuel mixture you will start using less gasoline to get from point A to point B. It is that simple. You will also risk damaging your engine. Lean running will cause damage to your pistons, spark plugs, valves.

If you start using HHO gas in addition to running your engine intentionally lean you can get better gas mileage while avoiding damaging your engine.

If you start off by running HHO gas only you will will probably not get a benefit from the HHO alone. The engine will sense a different exhaust gas mixture than what it is programmed to sense. It will "FLIP OUT" and start pumping more gasoline to try to "FIX" the problem. It expects a certain level of pollution and when it does not get that level of pollution the only thing it can do is adjust the level of gasoline getting into the cylinder.

That's it in a nutshell. Now why would anyone attempt to run straight HHO with no other mods and expect to get better gas mileage? I can't explain. Very few people have done it. Very few cars are configured to accept a large amount of HHO .75+ liters and get a benefit from it.

[tbhavsar]

Here's my "Opinion". JUST AN OPINION...

If you lean out your fuel mixture you will start using less gasoline to get from point A to point B. It is that simple. You will also risk damaging your engine. Lean running will cause damage to your pistons, spark plugs, valves.

If you start using HHO gas in addition to running your engine intentionally lean you can get better gas mileage while avoiding damaging your engine.

If you start off by running HHO gas only you will will probably not get a benefit from the HHO alone. The engine will sense a different exhaust gas mixture than what it is programmed to sense. It will "FLIP OUT" and start pumping more gasoline to try to "FIX" the problem. It expects a certain level of pollution and when it does not get that level of pollution the only thing it can do is adjust the level of gasoline getting into the cylinder.

That's it in a nutshell. Now why would anyone attempt to run straight HHO with no other mods and expect to get better gas mileage? I can't explain. Very few people have done it. Very few cars are configured to accept a large amount of HHO .75+ liters and get a benefit from it.

In theory, I agree with you. Actually this will confirm that the booster is producing gas and it is working fine. But I do NOT see any discrease in MPG (since I have not done any MAP/MAF/EFIE/ or O2 Extender modification yet).

[Stevo]

Here's my "Opinion". JUST AN OPINION...

If you lean out your fuel mixture you will start using less gasoline to get from point A to point B. It is that simple. You will also risk damaging your engine. Lean running will cause damage to your pistons, spark plugs, valves.

If you start using HHO gas in addition to running your engine intentionally lean you can get better gas mileage while avoiding damaging your engine.

If you start off by running HHO gas only you will will probably not get a benefit from the HHO alone. The engine will sense a different exhaust gas mixture than what it is programmed to sense. It will "FLIP OUT" and start pumping more gasoline to try to "FIX" the problem. It expects a certain level of pollution and when it does not get that level of pollution the only thing it can do is adjust the level of gasoline getting into the cylinder.

That's it in a nutshell. Now why would anyone attempt to run straight HHO with no other mods and expect to get better gas mileage? I can't explain. Very few people have done it. Very few cars are configured to accept a large amount of HHO .75+ liters and get a benefit from it.

Smith, you are right. Atleast from all that I have read the HHO allows you to extend your lean burning limit. So you can run a leaner A/F ratio w/o damage.

[tbhavsar]

Hi Tushar,

Good to see you got your own thread going.

I've just read through and taken a look at your pictures, I have a few comments for you:

1. You definitely need more neutrals in your setup, currently (no pun intended!) you will be generating unneeded heat due to too much voltage per plate. I would suggest four or five neutrals in each series set in your design.

2. I ran my HHO line to deliver gas right at the base of the throttle body where it will get a good vacuum. You could also build yourself a small venturi to deliver it through to enhance same.

3. From the pics (looked at them on my blackberry so I might be mistaken) it looks like your HHO delivery hose is running close to your engines heads. I would suggest securing it with nylon zip ties well away from the hotter parts of the engine for safety.

4. Are you using a bubbler at all? I would definitely suggest this for flashback support alone.

Question: what are you using for your catalyst?

Hope this helps!

Russ.

Hi Russ,

I appreciate your reply and encouragements; please check my reply;

1. You definitely need more neutrals in your setup, currently (no pun intended!) you will be generating unneeded heat due to too much voltage per plate. I would suggest four or five neutrals in each series set in your design.

I am currently using 3” tube and wall plates (4 X 2.75”); and hence I do not have enough room to add more than eight plates in total. I have ordered custom 316L 2 X 6” size “+ N N N – N N N +” with 1/16 spacing; hopefully it will be delivered by this weekend.

2. I ran my HHO line to deliver gas right at the base of the throttle body where it will get a good vacuum. You could also build yourself a small venturi to deliver it through to enhance same.

Is it possible to buy Readymade Venturi? Any link to design or pictures? On the other side I am still contemplating to add a ‘T’ and connect to PCV hose but I am not sure. What is your thought? Do you use PCV line?

3. From the pics (looked at them on my blackberry so I might be mistaken) it looks like your HHO delivery hose is running close to your engines heads. I would suggest securing it with nylon zip ties well away from the hotter parts of the engine for safety.

Point well taken; that would finalize my setup once I start seeing positive results.

4. Are you using a bubbler at all? I would definitely suggest this for flashback support alone.

I do have a bubbler with Anti-Slosh (using plastic scrubby); I will send link some pics.

NOTE: I am also thinking about having two booster run in parrellel with PWM to controlled current less than 25 amp. Expecting to have a gas out about 2 LPM.

Thanks
Tushar

[Painless]

Is it possible to buy Readymade Venturi? Any link to design or pictures? On the other side I am still contemplating to add a ‘T’ and connect to PCV hose but I am not sure. What is your thought? Do you use PCV line?


I haven't tried the PCV line myself, the thing I like about the throttle body is that you can deliver right next to the idle hole. This ensures a good flow. I've also had reports from other people with the same vehicle that they had the best results there, this may be vehicle specific though. As with everything, try it and see what you think!



NOTE: I am also thinking about having two booster run in parrellel with PWM to controlled current less than 25 amp. Expecting to have a gas out about 2 LPM.

Not a bad idea, but if you have room for two boosters in the same place, why not just build a bigger booster?

If you're interested in a PWM, check out ZeroFossilFuel's current sensing PWM on his website: http://www.alt-nrg.org/

[tbhavsar]

I haven't tried the PCV line myself, the thing I like about the throttle body is that you can deliver right next to the idle hole. This ensures a good flow. I've also had reports from other people with the same vehicle that they had the best results there, this may be vehicle specific though. As with everything, try it and see what you think!



Not a bad idea, but if you have room for two boosters in the same place, why not just build a bigger booster?

If you're interested in a PWM, check out ZeroFossilFuel's current sensing PWM on his website: http://www.alt-nrg.org/

Thanks; I do not have enough room in under the hood so I am installing between grill and radiator; I do not think it will fit 4" PVC pipe otherwise I will have to build custom polycarbonate box.

I am thinking about buying PWM from this site; what would be diff between this and made by Zero (off-course this would be cheaper). http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=679

[tbhavsar]

I have extended gas output upto intake manifold now; will post results in few days. please check out pics here;

http://picasaweb.google.com/tbhavsar/IntakeInjectionImproved#

After extending gas out line close to intake, my car is kind of running heavy; I feel I am driving on lower gear... I feel llike it is straining it self....I do not know why. Any idea, what it would do that?please check out these pics. http://picasaweb.google.com/tbhavsar/IntakeInjectionImproved#

[scrode]

you need to connect or t-in to the vacuum line right after the map sensor. in the picture #6 in the upper right corner at the end of the air tube is the intake on top of the intake is the map sensor just right of it looks like there is a vacuum line, t into it and you'll definitely notice a difference. I found that before the throttle butterfly you don't get the vacuum that it seems you needs. IMHO

;) its just my opinion but I have tried the way you are hooking it up.

:) whats ironic is I put the air line right exactly where you did. I also tried right up next to the mouth of intake with the same results

Good luck Scott

[tbhavsar]

you need to connect or t-in to the vacuum line right after the map sensor. in the picture #6 in the upper right corner at the end of the air tube is the intake on top of the intake is the map sensor just right of it looks like there is a vacuum line, t into it and you'll definitely notice a difference. I found that before the throttle butterfly you don't get the vacuum that it seems you needs. IMHO

;) its just my opinion but I have tried the way you are hooking it up.

:) whats ironic is I put the air line right exactly where you did. I also tried right up next to the mouth of intake with the same results

Good luck Scott

Thanks for your input; are you refering to PCV vacumm line? can you provide link to your setup pics? I am still little bit confuse what you are refering to....Attached is pic of my engine.

[scrode]

I'll post some pics when the wife gets home she has the car and camera :)

[scrode]

Thanks for your input; are you refering to PCV vacumm line? can you provide link to your setup pics? I am still little bit confuse what you are refering to....Attached is pic of my engine.

I tried running right to my pcv then changed to a vacuum line right next to my map sensor. I haven't noticed any difference in the 2 though.

[tbhavsar]

I'll post some pics when the wife gets home she has the car and camera :)

Thanks Scrode; I appreciate your help.

[scrode]

I had to use your photo wife couldn't find usb cable for camera :rolleyes:
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_ImprovedGasIntake014.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/ImprovedGasIntake014.jpg)


I marked the pic to show you.
You can t into anything behind the map sensor. All I can see is the one line, but im sure there are more.

[tbhavsar]

I had to use your photo wife couldn't find usb cable for camera :rolleyes:
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_ImprovedGasIntake014.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/ImprovedGasIntake014.jpg)


I marked the pic to show you.
You can t into anything behind the map sensor. All I can see is the one line, but im sure there are more.

Not a problem; whenever you find it;Thanks for your efforts.
Here is the pic of hoses; I marked various spots; please guide me.

[scrode]

you marked them right, just use the pcv to t-in your gas-in.

[tbhavsar]

you marked them right, just use the pcv to t-in your gas-in.

Thanks Scrode; I will do that.

QUESTION:
(1) along with PCV hose; do you still have gas out to intake manifold line?
(2) did not consider O2 Extender before going to MAP enhancer?
(3) From where you bought MAP Enhancer?

Sorry for questions; have a great weekend;

Thanks again.

[scrode]

Here pics of my intake and vacuum connection

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_setup2.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/setup2.jpg)


http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_setup1.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/setup1.jpg)

[tbhavsar]

In theory, I agree with you. Actually this will confirm that the booster is producing gas and it is working fine. But I do NOT see any discrease in MPG (since I have not done any MAP/MAF/EFIE/ or O2 Extender modification yet).

I drove 209.75 miles using 8.492 gallons of gas; i.e. 24.70 MPG compare to 28 MPG (before install); productivity down by 11.78%.

Good news: From my perspective this is good news since earlier I did NOT notice any difference (with previous gas intake close to air filter). This confirms that gas out is going to engine and it is working.

Bad news:
(1) No improvement in Power (H.P.) and smooth response that I was expecting. Motor got kind of noisy; runs heavy (feel as if I am driving on lower gears), kind of straining it self.

(2) It reduced MPG and now I have work on MAP Sensor Enhancer and/or put O2 Extender.

Hope to work on this weekend to add neutrals & improve intake (extend gas out to PCV hose with ‘T’).

[scrode]

use an enhancer its easy to make and works:o, extender isn't that reliable:(.
I made my enhancer. It's relatively easy, if can solder and if you cant, its a good first project it is so simple:D

[tbhavsar]

use an enhancer its easy to make and works:o, extender isn't that reliable:(.
I made my enhancer. It's relatively easy, if can solder and if you cant, its a good first project it is so simple:D


Thanks; let me see what I can do; please send me the link and I will get the part-list and run to radio shack.

[scrode]

part 1

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse1.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse1.jpg)

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse2.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse2.jpg)

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse3.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse3.jpg)

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse4.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse4.jpg)

[scrode]

part 2

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse5.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse5.jpg)

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse6.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse6.jpg)

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse7.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse7.jpg)
there's the directions to make it

[tbhavsar]

part 2

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse5.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse5.jpg)

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse6.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse6.jpg)

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/th_dmse7.jpg (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/scrosen/dmse7.jpg)
there's the directions to make it

Thanks again; I agree with you; it is easy to make.

[tbhavsar]

I have changed my plate setup as following

1. Obtained 316L plates (size 2” x 6”)
2. Config. ‘+ N N N N – N N N N +’ with 1/16 gap
3. Added check valve to stop backflow of water from Bubbler
4. Checked for leaks using soap water and sealed

Results:
I am observing only ½ LPM;

I am not quite happy with the result I do not know else to do to improve gas production. I need minimum 1 LPM to start with.

Please check pictures and comment:
http://picasaweb.google.com/tbhavsar/EnhancedCellWith316LPlates#

[VanHalen]

Increase your electrolyte solution untill your satisfied with amps/LPM

[tbhavsar]

Increase your electrolyte solution untill your satisfied with amps/LPM

I have enough electrolyte (few tea spoons per gallon of distilled water). The current used initially about 15 amp, after 15 minutes of driving it goes upto 30 amp that is very hot producing useless steam/vapour.