OK, I'm in. Here's some background and some questions.

[TBill]

I am ready to go and I think I have the perfect candidate! I bought an old K5 Blazer as a “ranch truck” and I want to see what I can do in the way of HHO. The trip to the ranch is about 500 miles so any improvement I can make to the typical 9 MPG will be HUGE!!!!:eek:
I have a lot of room to work with under the hood and the engine (1989) is pretty simple and straight forward. I will need to design for durability due to the off road activities and I will need to address sloshing in the cells. I’m thinking of beginning with a two or three cell design of 4” PVC. Maybe even build them a little longer and try to develop some baffle system to combat the sloshing. (BTW – I do not need to use the generator while off road; my main objective is a highway improvement)
PLEASE add any comments as, what is probably obvious to you will certainly not be so to me!

(1) I am leaning toward a three cell system thinking that I will have more electrolyte capacity which will be important on trips (I would like to go ~1200 miles between services). Is that possible in actual practice? Second it seems I can produce more gas without needing to push as much heat. Is my thinking in line – 3 cells are better than 2? Why wouldn’t it be?

(2) For simplicity, I am looking at a +NNNNN- configuration for each cell. My understanding is that a standard alternator will provide ~14 volts and thus I am providing 2 V per plate. Do you agree?

(3) Do I need to figure out how to build some “end caps” like Zero Fossil Fuel to prevent current leakage / heat generation or can I just stack the plates?

(4) Size of the plates. I have not seen where discussions on “Volts per plate” ever reference the size of the plates. Why wouldn’t you build 8” by 8” plates in the 7 plate configurations to have more surface area thus more production? (Exaggerated example)

(4) Should I feed the gas production of cell #1 into the bottom of cell #2 to assist with gas “flow” (knock the bubbles loose) and then feed the output of cell #2 into the bottom of cell #3 for the same reason? This might not be necessary as I have some “quality vibration” in a 6” inch lifted off road truck with 35” tires!:rolleyes: What does that do to electrolyte use/consumption as the third cell is “seeing” all the gas of the generator? Would cell #3 be hotter? Use more? Maybe I don’t worry about this?

(5) One or two bubblers? Why? How would you build your bubblers given the rough ride/bouncing. (I don’t want to fill the engine up with water right?)

(6) I understand that I want to run my power in parallel? All three negative tied and all three positives tied? On the positive side, I want to be wired to the ignition (for safety), have a power switch, and an in-line fuse. Is that enough to get started?

(7) I was also thinking that I might be able to house the cells wholly contained in some “cooler box” system and use a water/coolant mix to help with heat. (Texas summers are tough!:eek:) Maybe even a small 12v pump to move through copper I front of the radiator. Would this be necessary with this type of setup? Is this overkill, or maybe really worth the effort? Do any of you do this?


Finally, is there anything off the top of your head that you would tell a first timer that you wished you had known?

Thank you all for your support. I’m excited about the possibilities here and I look forward to “hear” your thoughts.
TBill

ps I am sorry this is so long. I'm about to start on supplies and I want a real visual idea of the design first.

[VanHalen]

I'm no pro, but I can answer a few.
1- I assume it depends what kind you build. Some units produce as much as 2-3 others depending on electrolyte and plates.

2-Yes, that, but any that is the max gaps you should have per cell.

3-Wrap in shrink wrap or electrical tape.

4-Its most of about surface area and the amount of space, along with places for HHO to "fall" off the plates, but if its bumpy enough I assume they would just be knocked off, but I don't know for sure.

4(2)-If you can seal them and prevent water leak, sounds to me like a good plan because each one would act as a bubbler. So if one blew, the other two wouldn't as the flame would stop at the first one.

5-I don't know, maybe just use a flashback arrestor

6-Don't know

7-Thats whats great about HHO, theres plenty of new ideas, and too me sounds like a decent idea.

[TBill]

Thanks. Do you think +NNNNN- or -NNN++NNN-
The second has 8 plates, but the ++ would act as one?

[hygear]

Tbill,If you're wanting to use that many cells you need to consider your amp draw and more importantly heat generation.A smacks design is not a good generator choice for long trips.If you use a true series generator design and run in series this would be more efficient than in parallel.If you did use said design instead of three separate generators you could build a series generator all three in one.by using a tero design and a configuration of +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn- and using 3mm spacer gaskets with 160 x 200 mm plates the amps would be high but tolerable.
You mentioned you were concerned with the Texas heat,I run this same generator design(only with 7 plates)In the hot florida summer with no heat issues whatsoever.
As far as your on/off switch goes,a relay wired to inside the cab to a toggle switch is all you need.There's not many amps on the wire that operates the relay,therefore you wouldn't need a heavy gauge wire to install that part nor a heavyduy switch.The wires that run the generator however I'm guessing need to be 8 gauge or heavier to handle that large a system.
Well that's my suggestions and may differ from others peoples opinions, which btw I would entertain as many as you can before tackling that project.

[richardb200373]

You're on the right track. Just a few things I will point out that I have made mistakes on or almost anyway...
On the cooling, I assume you are mixing with KOH, baking soda or something... copper tubing will corrode in about 1.2 seconds, get all the green crap on it. An aluminum cooler will pit and eventually leak or clog, but they are cheap and easily replace, so why not as long as you watch it.
Cooling is simple, but tricky in this area. Running your water through an overflow tank will help some and it will act as a bubbler also. Click on the HHO Tek advertising link at the top of this page, they have a seperate stainless cooling line running through their box that runs it's own fresh water.

On the stainless plate, I would use 18ga. , 0.050 , and cut with an industrial shear or have it laser cut. I've been fooling with 24 ga. and cutting with tin snips, the plates look like crap and are bent all over the place. I just invested in an 8" industrial shear. On drilling, use a drill press, using a regular drill will burn up bits in nothing flat, just invested in new bits and a drill press too, lol...

My advice right now would be not to try to take any short cuts, have things cut professionally if you don't have the tools, it will save you time, money, and headaches in the long run. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[TBill]

Thank you both. Note: KOH is the plan. Seems to be consensus on this per available, safe, and longevity?


hygear - About amp draw. I believe the alternator in the Blazer is 105 amp. If I did set three cells with 7 plates, what type of amp draw am I looking at?
Also, You are proposing that I consider a single cell (like a box?) that just bigger and configured as you mention? Is that what you mean by "tero"?
I don't understand your proposed plate config. Shouldn't the "ends" be the same? Either + or -?
Finally, why is a Smacks a bad choice for distance - just capacity?

Richard - I'm thinking I might buy the plates on-line.

[hygear]

Thank you both. Note: KOH is the plan. Seems to be consensus on this per available, safe, and longevity?


hygear - About amp draw. I believe the alternator in the Blazer is 105 amp. If I did set three cells with 7 plates, what type of amp draw am I looking at?
Also, You are proposing that I consider a single cell (like a box?) that just bigger and configured as you mention? Is that what you mean by "tero"?
I don't understand your proposed plate config. Shouldn't the "ends" be the same? Either + or -?
Finally, why is a Smacks a bad choice for distance - just capacity?

Richard - I'm thinking I might buy the plates on-line.

The smacks design has been known to have runaway heat issues especially running for over 2 hours.The smacks energy loss from heat generation is around 65% where as the tero design is 33%.They (smacks)are ok for local commuting but have been known for total meltdowns on long trips.The smacks design is whats called plates innabath which means all the plates share the same electrolyte bath.The tero is indivdual cells that each has its own electrolyte.The plate configuration does have a + and a - on either side of the n or neutral plates which is like having 3 separate cells,only it can be done by combining the 3 into one generator.Look at the plans and you'll see what I mean.
Btw you asked about amp draw and I would bench test this design to find out what concentration of KOH to use along with the ideal gas production before you install it on the vehicle.With a 105 amp alt. I wouldn't push past 30-35 amps.They also have higher amp alts. available to fit most vehicles,mine has a 136 amp alt. and Advance auto has a 160 amp for the same price as stock one.



http://www.umpquaenergy.com/hydrogengenerator/tero_cell.pdf (http://www.umpquaenergy.com/hydrogengenerator/tero_cell.pdf)





Hope this helps you out good luck

[TBill]

hygear,
I see what you're doing.:D Thank you very much for the link too. This is a "dry cell" design correct? In the link there are small holes drilled in the opposite bottom corners of the plates for electrolyte filling and leveling, thus the cells are not truly individual cells although they are acting like it 98% or so (very little current slip due to the holes).

I am really liking this setup due to the obvious durability and less "bath space" for the electrolyte to slosh. I assume you build some reservoir system to keep the cell full? How do you regulate the amount of electrolyte in the cell at any given time?

Also, you mentioned you are running this setup today? What kinds of output are you seeing in a 7 plate generator? Do you have any pictures?

I'm sorry for hitting you with 20 questions, but you've really changed my thinking about how to approach this. If I can get a higher output with a tero style cell then I could use space for storing the electrolyte and be able to make the trip!!!

Thank you again.
Bill

[redneckgearhead34]

Tbill, If you go to the "Painless HHO experiment" thread and go to about the 8th page + and read on from there you will see a lot on a modified Tero cell. I tried building one but was unsuccessful but I know where I made my mistakes.
A tero cell with 7 plates is goingto put out about 1lpm depended on how much electrolyte you put in it. I have become reallt involved with building dry cells lately. I think they are the way to go along the line of long term trips, because I have alot of them.

Also one other thing you may find interesting is the Ameoba cell the "Boytonstu" built. Frind his thread under the genral discussion section.

[richardb200373]

Bill, the best price I've found on stainless is on www.speedymetals.com
I just ordered a 316, 18ga. or 0.048" that is 12x48 cut in half to 6x48 for $75.00. I bought a metal shear on ebay yesterday too, so I will be cutting. I got a quote on cutting this in pieces too, it was like $62 extra for cutting that in 32 pieces. I plan on producing to sell, that is why I bought the shear, it was about $110.00 total. Hope this helps
Richard
By the way, there are reservoir tanks on ebay for between $20 to $40 or so, one already has 3 inlets on it, I think I'm going to get one of those right now too.

[DaneDHorstead]

I am ready to go and I think I have the perfect candidate! I bought an old K5 Blazer as a “ranch truck” and I want to see what I can do in the way of HHO. The trip to the ranch is about 500 miles so any improvement I can make to the typical 9 MPG will be HUGE!!!!:eek:
I have a lot of room to work with under the hood and the engine (1989) is pretty simple and straight forward. I will need to design for durability due to the off road activities and I will need to address sloshing in the cells. I’m thinking of beginning with a two or three cell design of 4” PVC. Maybe even build them a little longer and try to develop some baffle system to combat the sloshing. (BTW – I do not need to use the generator while off road; my main objective is a highway improvement)
PLEASE add any comments as, what is probably obvious to you will certainly not be so to me!

(1) I am leaning toward a three cell system thinking that I will have more electrolyte capacity which will be important on trips (I would like to go ~1200 miles between services). Is that possible in actual practice? Second it seems I can produce more gas without needing to push as much heat. Is my thinking in line – 3 cells are better than 2? Why wouldn’t it be?

(2) For simplicity, I am looking at a +NNNNN- configuration for each cell. My understanding is that a standard alternator will provide ~14 volts and thus I am providing 2 V per plate. Do you agree?

(3) Do I need to figure out how to build some “end caps” like Zero Fossil Fuel to prevent current leakage / heat generation or can I just stack the plates?

(4) Size of the plates. I have not seen where discussions on “Volts per plate” ever reference the size of the plates. Why wouldn’t you build 8” by 8” plates in the 7 plate configurations to have more surface area thus more production? (Exaggerated example)

(4) Should I feed the gas production of cell #1 into the bottom of cell #2 to assist with gas “flow” (knock the bubbles loose) and then feed the output of cell #2 into the bottom of cell #3 for the same reason? This might not be necessary as I have some “quality vibration” in a 6” inch lifted off road truck with 35” tires!:rolleyes: What does that do to electrolyte use/consumption as the third cell is “seeing” all the gas of the generator? Would cell #3 be hotter? Use more? Maybe I don’t worry about this?

(5) One or two bubblers? Why? How would you build your bubblers given the rough ride/bouncing. (I don’t want to fill the engine up with water right?)

(6) I understand that I want to run my power in parallel? All three negative tied and all three positives tied? On the positive side, I want to be wired to the ignition (for safety), have a power switch, and an in-line fuse. Is that enough to get started?

(7) I was also thinking that I might be able to house the cells wholly contained in some “cooler box” system and use a water/coolant mix to help with heat. (Texas summers are tough!:eek:) Maybe even a small 12v pump to move through copper I front of the radiator. Would this be necessary with this type of setup? Is this overkill, or maybe really worth the effort? Do any of you do this?


Finally, is there anything off the top of your head that you would tell a first timer that you wished you had known?

Thank you all for your support. I’m excited about the possibilities here and I look forward to “hear” your thoughts.
TBill

ps I am sorry this is so long. I'm about to start on supplies and I want a real visual idea of the design first.
TBill;

You no doubt will get as many different replies, as there are poople out there.........

I run three gens, in each of my three vehicles (all located in back, hoses, and #2 wire run under the car).

Using #2 wire, I can handle 100 amps, safely, and use three 30 amp circuit breakers (not fuses). If you are on a large ranch, about a thousand miles from civilization, you don't want to blow a fuse, and not have a spare. The breakes will reset, by themselves.


There shouldn't be any need to run vapors from first gen to the bottom, of the next gen.

You can manifold smaller 1/4" vinyl tubes, into a larger 3/8 or 1/2 inch tube, and run it under the vehicle, to the engine.

Note, I use a bubbler at the gens (in back), and another bubbler in engine compartment.

On shut down, a vapor lock keeps hydroxy from dissipating, but note also, that storing HHO, is usually not safe. This is a relatively small amount, of HHO, and should it explode, it would blow the vinyl hose apart, most likely under the car.

Double bubblers also cut down on hitchiker catalyst getting into the engine, which can further be cut down using air stones in the bubblers.

Get yourself a solenoid rated for "constant on" conditions, and hook it to a toggle in the cab, or to the key switch. It will pass the #2 power feed to the gens, and breakers. Note I also use a marine battery, so I have top, and side post (to separate normal car functions, from HHO gens). You will only need one battery cable, for the side post, as you can ground to the cars frame. Top post, will need both.

I agree, that a cooler is advisable, Ice chest, surrounding gens, with ice and water, also pumped to a transmission cooler of types, but if using copper tubes, be sure that no electrolyte flows through it. A simple spool of vinyl hose wrapped around itself (much like wire, or thread on a plastic spool), could be set inside the cool water (and ice), and go a very long way towards cooling the units. On a 500 mile trip, ice (and beer), is easilly accessable, and not too expensive.

[hygear]

The equalization holes do have a small amount of current leakage,but not enough to affect output much.They are vital to the generators operation so to keep sufficient electrolyte supplied to each cell.Several people have tried to work around them,but without any luck.One more thing is the 7 plate configuration works best for output and amp control.6 plates and your making more steam than gas and your amps will almost double,with 8 plates your amps will be lower but so will your output by more than half.

The way I regulate the electrolyte level is with a 1 gallon resivoir tank mounted with the full line marked on the tank level with my desired level in the generator.At first I had problems with the generator overfilling as it cooled after each use causing it to burp out electrolyte into my bubbler and was concerned it getting to my intake if it overfilled the bubbler.My solution was installing a steamtrap/bubbler after the generator with side mounted sight gauge to monitor the level,along with a plastic fuel petcock valve I got from a lawnmower shop that routed any burped out electrolyte back to the resivoir tank to be recycled.Also you won't need a tank larger than 1 gallon even with the increased generator size(they just don't use that much)

As far as my output with my generator goes,I've had it up to just over 4 LPM running a very high concentration of KOH.But was cocerned when the amps were running over 45 amps doing so.I've since diluted the KOH to where my output is between 3.4-3.7 LPM.Don't forget I built this generator to almost twice the size as the one shown in the plans,and still testing to determine if two stock cells in series would be more efficient.
Sorry I don't have any pics to post as of yet but will have some soon maybe.


Hope this helps you and ask all the questions you need and remember the only dumb question is the one that wasn't asked.

[TBill]

redneck, Richard, Dane, hygear, Y'all are awesome! Thumbs up! I'm fairly handy so I hope it won't be long before I can contribute rather than just interview.:o

Dane - Wow! That sounds like a heck of a lot of system! I'm interested to know what kind of output a rig like that is producing and what it has meant to your MPG in practical use? I'm not too strong on the electrical yet, so you kind of lost me on "Get yourself a solenoid rated for "constant on" conditions, and hook it to a toggle in the cab, or to the key switch. It will pass the #2 power feed to the gens, and breakers. " Regardless of the system, I obviously need to get this right.



hygear,
Thanks for the patience and thanks for you willingness to hang in there with me. I think I've got a pretty good mental picture of your system. I see from your sig line that you've wired so you can change from 6 to 7 cells and back. (I assume you just make the 7th or 8th plate "hot") What is the practical use here? Are you using temperature to determine when you switch back and forth? I wonder if I couldn't automate the that with some type of temperature switch? It could kind of act like a failsafe to prevent "runaway"? (The wheels are turning!:D)

[hygear]

[quote=TBill;


hygear,
Thanks for the patience and thanks for you willingness to hang in there with me. I think I've got a pretty good mental picture of your system. I see from your sig line that you've wired so you can change from 6 to 7 cells and back. (I assume you just make the 7th or 8th plate "hot") What is the practical use here? Are you using temperature to determine when you switch back and forth? I wonder if I couldn't automate the that with some type of temperature switch? It could kind of act like a failsafe to prevent "runaway"? (The wheels are turning!:D)[/quote]



Accually I don't use the switch any longer,I got the idea from a pdf and was using it at first to warm the generator for quick gas production when first starting on 6 cells(7plates) then swictching to 8 when the amps started to rise.In my last post I stated that in early test stage my generator ran over 45 amps with the rich KOH mix.I've since toned that down to where the switch is no longer needed.I forgot it was still on the sig.

[TBill]

Hygear,
Ok, so you don't use the switch anymore, but what do you think of the idea? If you can figure how to wire a temperature switch into the system that will make you cell run between 7 plates and 8 plates according to temp, would that allow you to "tune to the edge"? As heat builds, the switch turns on the 8th plate thus creating 7 cells and lower voltage per cell. As the temp levels out or drops, the 8th cell turns off and you increase the output to 6 cells. Think "self regulating".
Additionally, is it not the + plate that erodes the fastest? If the + plate is sometime #7 and sometime #8 they would be sharing the burden and there could be better longevity for the cell.

I know I'm brand new here. By no means am I suggesting that I would know more or whatever. Just thinking about things.

Thoughts?

[DaneDHorstead]

TBill;

You write........

"Dane - Wow! That sounds like a heck of a lot of system! I'm interested to know what kind of output a rig like that is producing and what it has meant to your MPG in practical use? I'm not too strong on the electrical yet, so you kind of lost me on "Get yourself a solenoid rated for "constant on" conditions, and hook it to a toggle in the cab, or to the key switch. It will pass the #2 power feed to the gens, and breakers. " Regardless of the system, I obviously need to get this right."

There are two types of solenoids offered through auto parts stores. Most of their stock items are rated for temporary duty, as to be on, only as long as you are turning the starter switch.

Then, there are permanent rated solenoids, which might be used to connect more than one battery (like you might use on a cabin cruiser), if perhaps you are cooking with battery power, or if you wish to use several batteries, with several engines, etc.

Anyway, because you want constant power to the generators, you need the solenoid that will not burn up, after a few minutes of use (constant rated solenoid has better coil, to do the job.)

Honestly, I don't know if I'm using all the HHO, I'm producing, as I do very little driving, and most of it, is only a few miles from home, and back again. Consequently, I seldom even get on the interstate, to even use the Hwy setting on the MAP enhancer.

My calculations show that I have increased almost 59%, from a previous 16.1 MPG, to 25.49, and again, that is city type driving, in a 2001 Grand Cherokee six banger.

But, I wanted to build a system that produces ample HHO, so I built three separate generators (for each car - nine generators total) each with a +NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+ set up.

However I have since pulled the set up out of one car, to experiment with other plate configurations, and electrolyte concentrations, for my own knowlege.

My situation differs from most of you, as I am a dissabled vet from Viet Nam war, and most of my work comes to me, rather than I go to work!

But still, I have an interest in helping people, to meet their energy needs, through the magic of HHO.

My businesses, have me dealing with companies all over the world, procureing various items, especially from China based motor manufacturers, and specialty electronics companies.

So, I decided to ask them to help me to develop a system of electrodes, that can be configured in an almost indefinite aray of situations (either for wet open baths, or drycell types of generators).

Below, I supply a link to the plates, and parts I am producing, and like anything else I do, I never do anything half assed!

As I read the forum I see where most of you, use a tank of gas every two, or three days, and some tank up every day! My situation is not like that, at all.

As I write to you ( Sept 26th), I am still on the tank of gas I bought just prior to Tropical Storm Fay, a month ago, but the figures I state above, were calculated prior to that fill up, and before a complete burn in of the plates.

But as stated, my aim is to help others, by utilizing my international contacts, to the best of my ability.

mlTo see production of these units, use this link: http://shuttermotor.tripod.com/id12.html