A safe and inexpensive electrolyte

[hygear]

The first forum I joined last year I ran accross a thread where a guy is using unsweetened lemonaid (koolaid brand)and says he's getting great results.He said he uses 14 packs to a gallon of distilled water(he also said don't add the sugar),gets great cell production and said his plates remain almost spotless.
After taking my tero cell apart last week after several month's of use to replace the spacer gaskets with thinner ones,I found that my plates had a dark brown almost black film on most except the end plates.Some of it could be wiped off,but most of the stains are embedded into the 316L plates.My tero cell runs very cool about 115deg.F so I know it's not from excessive heat,even though it draws about 35 amps.After painfully resanding and reconditioning the plates(8-9"x9") I've decided to give it a whirl and try the koolaid over the KOH I've used in all my cells.
Citric acid is in fact an electrolyte and should do the job,I just don't know if my gas production will be the same,but if I have to lose a little gas and not to have to deal with badly stained plates again it'll be worth it.
Should have everthing back together this week and I'll post results as I get them.

[donnylynn]

You can buy citric acid at the grocery much cheaper than Kool-Ade and it wont have the food coloring in it. Look in the canning supplies. About $4 for a 5 ounce container. Its used for canning tomatoes. My experience was the HHO ouput was about the same as pure distilled white vinegar.

[hygear]

You can buy citric acid at the grocery much cheaper than Kool-Ade and it wont have the food coloring in it. Look in the canning supplies. About $4 for a 5 ounce container. Its used for canning tomatoes. My experience was the HHO ouput was about the same as pure distilled white vinegar.



Did your plates seem to be cleaner than with other electrolytes?

[donnylynn]

My cell was pretty new and I didnt run it long enough to make a comparison of cleaness

[BoyntonStu]

You can buy citric acid at the grocery much cheaper than Kool-Ade and it wont have the food coloring in it. Look in the canning supplies. About $4 for a 5 ounce container. Its used for canning tomatoes. My experience was the HHO ouput was about the same as pure distilled white vinegar.

Straight white vinegar or diluted?

Volts/Amps/LPM/MMW?

Have you tried other electrolytes in addition to citric acid and vinegar?

BoyntonStu

[mytoyotasucks]

Straight white vinegar or diluted?

Volts/Amps/LPM/MMW?

Have you tried other electrolytes in addition to citric acid and vinegar?

BoyntonStu

well i ahve used salt - baking soda - drain cleaner - waiting for KOH

but drain cleaner kicks ass, but KOH is suppose to be better and no fumes.

[donnylynn]

Straight white vinegar or diluted?

Volts/Amps/LPM/MMW?

Have you tried other electrolytes in addition to citric acid and vinegar?

BoyntonStu

pure white distilled vinegar, no aditional water. Citric acid was about the same as vinegar.
If it works, there is a link to a spreadsheet with the different electrolytes tried so far.
Baking soda was a mistake. rusted my plates and made a mess. Plates are 316 stainless.
spreadsheet (http://boxstr.com/files/3634493_riqbo/hho%20production%20data.xls)

[BoyntonStu]

pure white distilled vinegar, no aditional water. Citric acid was about the same as vinegar.
If it works, there is a link to a spreadsheet with the different electrolytes tried so far.
Baking soda was a mistake. rusted my plates and made a mess. Plates are 316 stainless.
spreadsheet (http://boxstr.com/files/3633186_xymjz/hho%20production%20data.htm)

Link to spreadsheet not working.

How much citric acid is used? Mixture, etc.

Was the efficiency of citric equal to NaOH or KOH?

Thanks,

BoyntonStu

[donnylynn]

Had some trouble finding a way to upload my spreadsheet.
anyway, here it is. Time is minutes:seconds to fill a 500ml bottle.
Voltage is from a battery charger measured with a voltmeter.
I didnt record the data with citric acid because I wasnt impressed with the results. It was very close to same as vinega. Seems like it was a teaspoon to about a quart of distilled water. From memory, the output with baking soda was more than with vinegar or citric acid. The output with NaOH was more than with baking soda. Temperature was measured with a cheap infrared temp sensor aimed at the outside of my generator. Since my generator container is PVC, the internal temperature is probably higher.
Generator is 2.5 x 6" plates configured +nnnnn-nnnnn+ with spacing about 0.050"

[LanaHHO]

~Hey everyone new to these forums but i noticed you said that citric acid isn't a very good electrolyte. I disagree i have been testing with some Citric acid mono-hydrate, the chemical formula is C6H8O7. Before i go on my cell is a Joe influenced Cell, i am running 3 304L stainless steel tubes within one another with about a 1/8" or less of spacing all the way around. In the very middle i have a threaded rod also 304L stainless steel, i am running the polarity of the cell right now -nn+nn- i have tried the reverse of this and found little difference in output but some in the Amps, also not a real noticeable difference. Back to Citric Acid in my last test i pulled 10.8V and 14.2A for 30 secs and produced 500ml roughly, the MMW is 6.52. Now i know that's lower but think first this is all natural i have no by products other than HHO, and i don't form any sludge or scum, and if you spill this stuff on yourself your not gonna get seriously injured and it wont harm your engine. I have also been testing with Silica Dioxide as it is a semi conductor for pulling more amps with less acidity, i will post my result after i finish my test

[hanker886]

I know vinegar would evaporate with higher temp. Does citric acid do the same?



~Hey everyone new to these forums but i noticed you said that citric acid isn't a very good electrolyte. I disagree i have been testing with some Citric acid mono-hydrate, the chemical formula is C6H8O7. Before i go on my cell is a Joe influenced Cell, i am running 3 304L stainless steel tubes within one another with about a 1/8" or less of spacing all the way around. In the very middle i have a threaded rod also 304L stainless steel, i am running the polarity of the cell right now -nn+nn- i have tried the reverse of this and found little difference in output but some in the Amps, also not a real noticeable difference. Back to Citric Acid in my last test i pulled 10.8V and 14.2A for 30 secs and produced 500ml roughly, the MMW is 6.52. Now i know that's lower but think first this is all natural i have no by products other than HHO, and i don't form any sludge or scum, and if you spill this stuff on yourself your not gonna get seriously injured and it wont harm your engine. I have also been testing with Silica Dioxide as it is a semi conductor for pulling more amps with less acidity, i will post my result after i finish my test

[Roland Jacques]

How is Citric acid mono Hydrate different from regular lCitric acid? And where did you find it?


I could not find Citric acid at Wal Mart.

[LanaHHO]

~Hey again
To answer some question the citric acid mono-hydrate can be found online from diy soap making, its fairly cheap although they get ya with the shipping because they have to send it ground only, because it is a chemical. Taking 10-15 days, but you can get i believe 10 pounds per order because of ground weight limit, so i bought a lot. The reason i said citric acid mono-hydrate is because that's the fancy name for citric acid, its the same as saying citric acid.

~ On another note i also wanted to say make sure if you use citric acid in a cell whether it be wet or dry, first make sure you keep it cool because it will raise in concentration as water is steamed off, also water used in the production of HHO slowly will raise the acidity raising the amps. Second have a way to control the foam because it make a lot of it, this is because acid's has a higher surface tension. I have been playing around with my water softener housing with the addition of a couple of scotch-brite pads used to block the foam and break the bubbles, and it has been working. My computer water cooling pump also help control the bubbles by spraying a beam of water at a screw which breaks the beam into a mist of water like a sprinkler on the lid of my filter housing. I hope to have a video soon, because i have notice you can let the cell build about an inch and half of foam on the top of the cell, then turn the pump on and the production seems to go up on the bubbler, i think this is from the inch and half of bubbles that can form at the top being popped.

Hope this Helps
LanaHHO

[LanaHHO]

~ I got a new Cell plate setup coming soon, i ordered 15 4x4 304L Stainless with less than 0.08 Carbon Steel it also was annealed making it even less corrosive and magnetic. Any ways spacing will be no more than 1/8" hoping to get 1/16th of a inch. The plate orientation will be - n n n n n n + n n n n n n - this should give me a 1.9V drop between each plate on a 13.6 V system, also gonna be messing with lower Volts per plate like 1 to 1.5 V (+ n n n n n n n n n n n n n -) with the citric acid to keep steam and the heat down.

[hygear]

~ I got a new Cell plate setup coming soon, i ordered 15 4x4 304L Stainless with less than 0.08 Carbon Steel it also was annealed making it even less corrosive and magnetic. Any ways spacing will be no more than 1/8" hoping to get 1/16th of a inch. The plate orientation will be - n n n n n n + n n n n n n - this should give me a 1.9V drop between each plate on a 13.6 V system, also gonna be messing with lower Volts per plate like 1 to 1.5 V (+ n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n -) with the citric acid to keep steam and the heat down.


You may find 13 plates more efficient,with good output and shouldn't have any heat issues if using dry cell design.

[LanaHHO]

~ Thanks for the info, what would you arrange polarity with 13 plates, would you do a + n n n n n n n n n n n - giving you a 1.14v or would you do the double cell in one, which is dbl that so like 2.3v, either way i can play around with the number of plates with this electrolyte and see what it likes the most thanks again for the info

P.S. i have heard that heat effects how much oxygen (less heat makes the oxygen bonds release closer to the rate of the hydrogen bonds) is released from the positive sides of the electrodes, has anyone else heard this claim?

[hygear]

I would arrange 13 plates +nnnnn-nnnnn+. You wouldn't have any heat issues,but your amps might be a little high.This is providing you have a true series dry cell design like a tero.

[LanaHHO]

~ Hmm seem to like it the reverse of that 2 two negatives plus if you don't have a larger negative contact than your positive to accommodate for the Chromium 7 oxide produced it builds up in your electrolyte and i don't want cancer.

P.S. Hydrogen has a more protons than electrons which makes it a positive ion so it is attracted to the negative electrode therefore more negative surface area the more hydrogen can be attracted to the plate.

[hygear]

~ Hmm seem to like it the reverse of that 2 two negatives plus if you don't have a larger negative contact than your positive to accommodate for the Chromium 7 oxide produced it builds up in your electrolyte and i don't want cancer.

P.S. Hydrogen has a more protons than electrons which makes it a positive ion so it is attracted to the negative electrode therefore more negative surface area the more hydrogen can be attracted to the plate.


Each to his own,whatever blows your skirt up.