Warning, Warning... Please read...

[Smith03Jetta]

Warning, There is a risk of damage to your aluminum engine parts.

It can be prevented but please read below...

I mentioned this on my thread but I'll repeat for you:

Both my HHO devices put out a pretty decent volume of gas (1 - 1.5 liters) but any device that puts out that much HHO also puts out some water vapor that contains trace amounts of your Electrolyte. That electrolyte is pulled in past your throttle body and into your intake and into your cylinders. The vapors will eventually settle on the aluminum parts and start to corrode them.

I did not find this out until this week. I had some Non-HHO related car problems. My Brake booster went out. I also had a bad vacuum hose on my fuel pressure regulator. I had a bad Coolant Temp Sensor too. When I tore down my engine to fix these problems I discovered the corroding aluminum parts.

I'm talking specifically about the Throttle body housing. It should have been nice and shiny after I cleaned it but it had lost it's shiny finish and was pitting in certain places, Heavy pitting was occurring near where the plastic air plenum connected to the throttle body. I also had mineral deposits on the side walls that were inhibiting the butterfly valve from freely moving. There's no way this could have occured under normal operating conditions. I've checked...

The only thing under my hood that could have caused it was the Sodium Hydroxide. It eats Aluminum for lunch.

I cleaned my throttle body. It had oil and chemical buildup on it. It was causing my engine to run like crap. After cleaning it and putting it back together my engine started running like new again.

The only problem I've got now is trying to FOOLPROOF my HHO gas output so I don't get any NaOH in my intake. Some people on this forum (Including myself, probably) have stated that the electrolyte will stay in the HHO generator but IT IS NOT TRUE! I've got a damaged throttle body to prove it. It still functions properly but it will eventually quit working if the corrosion gets much worse. I'll be out $500 to replace it.

Now you can do what you will with this information but I would sincerely recommend that EVERYBODY on this forum inspect your throttle body for corrosion, regardless of what electrolyte you are using in your HHO Gen. You may not be able to see the corrosion on your carb or throttle body but you can use throttle body cleaner to clean your throttle body and Carb cleaner to clean your Carb to be able to do an inspection. It is definitely worth the 5 to 10 dollars to clean your throttle body. Cleaning it will definitely make your car run better and use less gas even if you don't have corrosion.

Be extremely careful and gentle while cleaning your throttle body. I recommend removing it from your car to clean it. There are sensitive electronic components/sensors that can be damaged if you drop it or use carb cleaner instead of throttle body cleaner. Trust me on this. Look up instructions on GOOGLE for cleaning your specific type of throttle body. They will come in handy.

The throttle body should be shiny on the inside after cleaning. If it is not, then you've got problems.

This is a warning... Please take heed!

[mytoyotasucks]

i heard about this, thst is y im changing to KOH., and will use a bubbler also.

[donsimpson12]

I have to wonder if there's an "eating agent" in all of the Electrolytes being used. It makes since if there is...

I haven't experimented with any Electrolytes thus far, but really want to keep it that way if at all possible...

[mytoyotasucks]

I have to wonder if there's an "eating agent" in all of the Electrolytes being used. It makes since if there is...

I haven't experimented with any Electrolytes thus far, but really want to keep it that way if at all possible...

if ur not using electrolytes ur production must be low. :eek:

they help production.

[IronBear]

Since most folks are using Hydroxide based electrolytes it would be only natural for them to damage aluminum parts. Sodium, Potassium and Aluminum all come from the same family in the periodic table, therefore they would have similar characteristics.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

This explains why some manufacturers are recommending a 50/50 mix of distilled water and vinegar for electrolyte. Maybe also explains why others recommend baking soda and distilled water.

[oicu812]

I would think using a decent bubbler would prevent any sodium hydroxide from entering the intake

[1973dodger]

Mr. Smith

This is a very interesting thread, for which I have had some suspection of for a few weeks now. I posted my concerns on an earlier thread, but had no real proof, now there is proof I find credible. Just think about what cost one will incur for those with aluminum heads, although the oil bath on top of the heads will prevent this somewhat, it is still not worth the risk. We should at least consider a double bubbler or using something in our bubblers to neutralize the caustic effects of our electrolite. Those with a chemical background can comment on this further. I would think either vinegar or baking soda could possibly serve as a neutralizer, but not for sure.

1973dodger

[HYDROTEKPRO]

I would think using a decent bubbler would prevent any sodium hydroxide from entering the intake

Not necessarily true. Within the sphere of each bubble is HHO gas (with some electrolyte containing vapor present). There isn't enough surface contact area during bubbling to remove all the electrolyte containing vapor from the HHO gas. This is another reason why some plans call for 2 bubblers.

A massive cigarette filter would work because of the surface area. And it would just drain back down the feed line if you simply use gravity!:D

The cigarette filter needs to be able to withstand Hydrogen and KOH and/or NaOH.

Find out where the Jolly Green Giant takes his smoke breaks, and collect all those cigarette butts, and sell them here on this forum for $20 each!:D

[Painless]

Hmm,

How about using distilled white vinegar as your bubbler content?

Russ.

[Painless]

On this subject of aluminum destruction, I found this page interesting:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03682.htm

To summarize, it states that Aluminum reacts with water to release hydrogen, however, the oxidization of the aluminum creates a layer that stops the reaction continuing (which we already know). However, if the water becomes a base solution via the addition of KOH or NaOH for example, this allows the reaction to continue unhindered.

The short answer here is that we need to keep both these substances out of our engines, if they contain aluminum. We will be getting some extra hydrogen produced by a method we do not want, otherwise.

Here's a question: How can we test our HHO output for the presence of these elements so we know if our scrubbing methods are working?

Perhaps we can pump the HHO into an aluminum can and check for pitting?

[donnylynn]

On this subject of aluminum destruction, I found this page interesting:

The short answer here is that we need to keep both these substances out of our engines, if they contain aluminum.

We cant stop the water since it will be there anyway. humidity in the air and also water vapor as a by-product of combustion. So the real question is "How do we keep the electrolyte in the cell?"

[Smith03Jetta]

For you scientific types, I would suggest twin test generators built to exact specs with identical volume ouputs. You should attach your filter to one of the two systems. Build two more boxes. Inside those boxes put a block of un-treated aluminum. Don't use aluminum cans. They have varnish on them that protect against corrosion. Vent your HHO into that box. Let it run for several days straight. At the end of the time period take the aluminum out of the boxes and examine the surfaces. You should be able to see if one is more corroded than the other. That will tell you if your filter is doing its job.

You should also be able to see a visible difference if you vent the hose out into the air. One cell's gas should be visible. The other should not. I'll do this simple test and post the results. Maybe a Youtube Video.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

The Smith03Jetta experiment has pretty much proven that most of us will have plenty of moisture (vapor) in our HHO gas even after it goes through a bubbler or two. There just doesn't seem to be enough surface contact area for a long enough period of time for bubbling to pull away all the electrolyte vapor.

What is needed is a vapor trap between the bubbler and the engine. Remember, WE are improving this technology; and WE are not finished yet. There is no law that says the vapor trap has to be fluid based, right? Sid Young made a very ingenious flashback arrestor of a piece of pipe filled with beach sand!:eek: He had it horizontally mounted under the hood for his YouTube video demonstrations. I'll bet that sand filled pipe scrubs more vapor off our HHO gas than any bubbler, especially if it were mounted vertically! In the vertical position any accumulated moisture just drips back down the line to the bubbler!

At this point either we go with vinegar & distilled water, or solve the vapor trap issue.

There are many Earth minerals available to buy, to fill an electrolyte vapor trap. Sand is one. Pure silicone sand may even withstand the hydrogen and KOH and NaOH.

Since WE are carrying this technology to a place where we want it to be, WE just get inventive and creative about it. There are probably a dozen solutions for the vapor trap that actually work. Fiberglass insulation has plenty of surface area while being readily available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Layers and layers of polymer cloth will also do the job, like those old polyester suits?:D What are those micro-fiber dust rags made of anyway?

How about Handy-Wipes, aren't they plastic based as well. Wouldn't ABS sawdust work too? PVC melts too soon.

[Painless]

We cant stop the water since it will be there anyway. humidity in the air and also water vapor as a by-product of combustion. So the real question is "How do we keep the electrolyte in the cell?"

by "both these substances" I meant KOH and NaOH :)

[Smith03Jetta]

I tried the artificial steel wool this evening. Otherwise known as Scotch Brite. It does nothing to reduce the vapor stream. I built a filter with several inches of the material. If it did anything it made the vapor particles smaller. It acted more like a diffuser than a filter. The vapor particles are smaller than the pores in the Scotchbrite so they float right on through without much sticking to the material.

I also made a filter using activated charcoal from one of my organic particle masks. It had no effect.

I wonder what else we can use. I'm putting the call out for your guys to try different materials and report back your results. If anybody gets a good result with a material that does not have to be replaced frequently I'll try it myself and turn my HHO back on if it works.

[Roland Jacques]

I believe scotch bright can work. I have used plastic gutter guard for this purpose. But I have something more like scotch bright now, it works a little better. The trick is Simple to slow down the Flow of gas.

I think we just want maximum interface of the gases with max surfaces. So if we have a 4” PVC 12" long with a drain on the bottom, approximately 1 liter in volume, filled with these types of materials it may do a good job. If you’re flowing 2 lpm that means the gas will be in the filter for 30 seconds, which should give a lot of contacts.

Another way we did something like this with aquarium stuff. Is to coil long tubing. Gas going through coils of tubing does a good job of drying gases.

The tubing may be a better choice. I would not as concerned about flash backs with the coils.

[Painless]

Hmm, wouldn't running the gas line through an air filter (paper type, as used on the engine intake) remove the vapor?

[precaster1@msn.com]

Hmm, wouldn't running the gas line through an air filter (paper type, as used on the engine intake) remove the vapor?
Thats where i moved mine to keep water and lye out of my engines, i think an air filter will keep the water out but I am going to put a tee in the tube with a big tube hanging down to let the crap drop into that.My amps always drop after a couple weeks so i know i'm losing electrolyte. How long ya been running that hydro?

[Painless]

Thats where i moved mine to keep water and lye out of my engines, i think an air filter will keep the water out but I am going to put a tee in the tube with a big tube hanging down to let the crap drop into that.My amps always drop after a couple weeks so i know i'm losing electrolyte. How long ya been running that hydro?

Mines only been running about 4 days, currently I'm piping right to the throttle body. Definitely rethinking after smiths revelations though.

[richardb200373]

This company uses some sort of paper filter, not sure exactly what kind of filter it is, anyone know where to find these? Also they only use vinegar and distilled.
http://www.hydro4000.com/hydro5000.htm

[1973dodger]

Just had an idea. What about gortex, isn't it supposed to be a breathable fabric, yet keeps the moisture out? In this case, it keeps the moisture in. Perhaps a membrane of gortex just before the gas exits the electroliser and for added protection, a layer of gortex before the gas exits the bubbler.

1973dodger

[countryboy18]

there is a product call damp rid. it absorbers water and collects it it works great have to try testing when my cell is done unless anyone has it laying around there house? http://www.damprid.dsiwebbuilder.com/index.asp?cat=176180 hopes this helps!

[precaster1@msn.com]

there is a product call damp rid. it absorbers water and collects it it works great have to try testing when my cell is done unless anyone has it laying around there house? http://www.damprid.dsiwebbuilder.com/index.asp?cat=176180 hopes this helps!

Lye is one the best water absorbers there is, leave it out it gets wet real soon.

[countryboy18]

so your saying just fill a tube with lye and pass the gas through it and whats it. wow then you are making a second batch a electrolyte in the tube.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

I'm getting ready to try a cylinder packed with fiberglass insulation, maybe a little steel wool top and bottom to keep the fiberglass contained! :D Somebody once told me that most cigarette filters are made of fiberglass!

This is such a simple shit little problem, we'll probably have it solved in a week or less. Nobody wants KOH or NaOH in their aluminum (or any) intake track. Yet we all prefer the superior electrolytic properties of KOH and NaOH.

A verticle cylinder of silicone sand barriered top and bottom with Goretex fabric (isn't that Teflon based?) would probably work just fine too!:D Beach sand would be good in a pinch, but it's far from pure.

Bench testing is a callin'!

[EltonBrandd]

Does anybody have a spare in line water filter laying around? I was looking at my taste filter for my RO system and thought it would be worth a shot. The only problem is that its in use. Here is a link to what I'm talking about. http://www.filtersfast.com/Pentek-GS-10CB1-Inline-Filter.asp

[mytoyotasucks]

This is such a simple shit little problem, we'll probably have it solved in a week or less. Nobody wants KOH or NaOH in their aluminum (or any) intake track. Yet we all prefer the superior electrolytic properties of KOH and NaOH.


i was told, and read that KOH does not get used up when making HHO, and all u have to do is add distilled water.

i know that NoOH gets used up, so u need to add a little here and there.

so if KOH doesnt leave the container, how can it hurt aluminum??????? :confused:

[cully]

what about using a piece of absorbent material out of a babies nappie "diaper" think thats the spelling. and flowing the hho through it ??

[Roland Jacques]

i was told, and read that KOH does not get used up when making HHO, and all u have to do is add distilled water.

i know that NoOH gets used up, so u need to add a little here and there.

so if KOH doesnt leave the container, how can it hurt aluminum??????? :confused:


If it was straight evaporation you are right the electrolyte should stay in the water. I think for the most part the majority of the electrolyte stays in the water. I guess for some reason (maybe temp, pressure or splashing) trace minerals get carried off with the gases.

I no of one guy who had his spark plugs electrodes burn completely off. I think that was due to electrolyte in the HHO gases. Personally I thought it was do to his bubbler being very splashy. This is why I put plastic gutter guard material in my bubbler to eliminate the bubble splashing. I think it does the job, but honestly I can’t be sure without testing it some how.

[Roland Jacques]

The material you use has to be water proof and non restrictive to air flow when wet. So Gortex (restrictive) fiber glass (Not really water proof) might not work to well. The carbon filter would be GREAT until it got completely wet.

I think whatever you make it needs to be able to drain off. I’m thinking something the water can condensate onto then as it collects at the bottom, it be drained off.

Air compressors have air dryers/water separators, for catching moisture. Heres a real cheep one. They might be too restrictive also. But for $4 it may be wroth a try. Maybe run 2 in parallel to minimize any back pressure.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=43764

[Westcoastrocks]

Quick question. I am confused about the difference between water vapor and the lye. It seems that you guys are worried about lye getting in the engine with good reason. But as far as the water vapor goes...does that really matter? As hot as engines run they should vaporize the water and send it out the tail pipe. I have stopped running my HHO gen for a while now but when I had it on I always switched it off 30 sec before I kill my engine so that if there were any water it should cook it out.

So do we still need to worry about the water vapor or did I read this post wrong and we are only concerned with the lye (or whatever you use) tearing up your engine parts

[Jaxom]

The problem with those cheap moisture seperators is that they use the velocity of the airflow to seperate the moisture. Basically they direct the airflow outward toward the canister walls, and when the moisture impacts the canister wall it sticks and runs down to the bottom. They're not very effective, I can tell you from experience. The bigger ones that mount at the compressor use a spiral airflow to seperate the moisture via centrifugal force...this is more effective but I fear our gennys don't push enough flow rate for it to work.

[Jaxom]

WestCoast.....The water vapor is not just water...it's really electrolyte vapor and therefore contains a small amount of lye.

[hygear]

Luck has it I caught the problem when I first installed my cell.I noticed my cell burping out electrolyte now and then,and was concerned with KOH entering the intake.My solution was adding on a steamtrap/bubbler after the cell with a sight gauge and also installed a plastic pet cock valve I got a lawnmower shop.I routed that back to the gravity feed resivoir to be recycled.I leave the valve slightly cracked open to let it constantly drain,being as my resivoir is sealed I don't lose any gas prodction this way.I still have my second bubbler in place and it has 5' of tubing coming from the first bubbler which is mounted behind the bumper along with resivoir and generator.I've checked the water in the second bubbler and have found no presence of KOH to date,also no fluid in the tube coming from the first bubbler to the next.I'm fairly confident that no electrolyte can reach my intake with set up.

Hope this helps out

[Roland Jacques]

. The carbon filter would be GREAT until it got completely wet.

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thinking some more Activated Carbon is used to remove some gases from breathing air. So it Might actualy remove Or recombine H2 and O2. not sure.

[Westcoastrocks]

I am testing my HHo Gen right now. I taped aluminum foil around the end of my output. I am going to let it run for a while and see if it starts corroding the foil. If I can see corrosion then I will know this is a decent way to test for corrosion and I can now put in all of my safety measures and test it with them installed. Hopefully by that time there will be no corrosion.

[Roland Jacques]

I am testing my HHo Gen right now. I taped aluminum foil around the end of my output. I am going to let it run for a while and see if it starts corroding the foil. If I can see corrosion then I will know this is a decent way to test for corrosion and I can now put in all of my safety measures and test it with them installed. Hopefully by that time there will be no corrosion.

I believe aluminum foil is pure aluminum. Pure aluminum does not easily oxidize. They use pure aluminum for protective coating on aluminum alloys (Alclad) to prevent corrosion. But I like the experiment maybe try alumium alloy or
Magnesium corrodeds very easily. It would proably take many weeks before you saw any corrsion in any case
.

[precaster1@msn.com]

so your saying just fill a tube with lye and pass the gas through it and whats it. wow then you are making a second batch a electrolyte in the tube.

No i didn't say that, you mentioned water absorbent and some are made of lye, for rv's and stuff. I'm thinking maybe running the gas through a big chamber with lye in the bottom to suck water out. It was your idea. remember?

[Smith03Jetta]

Does anybody have an old Aluminum engine part laying around. Carb, Throttle body, Stuff like that... That's what you need to bench test with.

I'm going to post some photos. The first two photos are a normal throttle body with about 60,000 miles on it that needs a good cleaning. The third photo is of a 60,000 mile throttle body after it has been cleaned. THIS IS NOT MY CAR...

The post following this one will show photos of mine after it has been cleaned. I was so upset I forgot to take photos of mine when it was dirty but I did take some photos of the sediment in my Plastic Plenum. I also took some photos of mine after it was cleaned to show just how bad the corrosion is.

I hope this helps...

Remember the first photos are of a normal throttle body. This is not from my car...

[Westcoastrocks]

I brew my own beer. During the fermentation you can put a airlock so that gas can escape but nothing can go back in. I am thinking that if I filled the airlock with something that can filter out the lye at the same time serve as a one way valve. I am wondering that by the time my HHO gas goes through Bubbler>Airlock/filter>Flashback Res>Cars Air filter>intake if there would be any lye left to corrode the engine. What do you guys think?

[Westcoastrocks]

Oh here is the airlock pic in case you don't know what I am talking about

[Smith03Jetta]

These photos are of the NaOH that got into my Air Plenum. The first 4 photos are from a week or two ago when I first noticed this stuff in my air breather. The last photo is from the day I cleaned up my throttle body. I had cleaned the plastic plenum the first time I saw the problem. This new residue had built up over a 7 day period.

[Smith03Jetta]

These photos are of the "CLEANED" throttle body on my car. As I mentioned earlier, I forgot to take some photos of the Dirty throttle body. Oh, well, you get the idea. IT WAS NASTY! You can see that this throttle body has lost it's shiny original surface. The oil should have protected it from anything NORMAL. This NaOH is definitely not NORMAL. It's not the WATER that's the problem... It's the stuff in the water. I'm sorry I didn't take any photos of the other side of this butterfly valve but I didn't think to take any photos until I had it back on the car.

[precaster1@msn.com]

Don't air compressures have moisture traps you can add on? They are cheap but maybe they need velocity also. But air moves very slowly with a small tool like a brad nailer.

[Roland Jacques]

These photos are of the NaOH that got into my Air Plenum. The first 4 photos are from a week or two ago when I first noticed this stuff in my air breather. The last photo is from the day I cleaned up my throttle body. I had cleaned the plastic plenum the first time I saw the problem. This new residue had built up over a 7 day period. WOW!! that is a awefull lot of deposit, even for a year much less 7 days.

[hydrotinkerer]

My setup is my trunk. I have a steam trap, Then about a foot away there is a bubbler. I have noticed condensation in that gas line all the way to the firewall. I'm going to build another bubbler with a piece of fiberglass in the bottom. Then take some of my son's(he won't miss them)aquarium rocks on top of fiberglass. What do you think about filling this w/vinegar? I have Naoh in my cell.

[u4david]

build a coil from copper wrapped around a ac cold line would make it condense and drip back to hho tank BUT:.

Also ss seel wool right above hho level could do the trick.



As far I know KOH or any other crystallizing chemical can not evaporate!
So it must be a mist effect from all the bubbles bursting and dispensing micro mist in to the HHo gas.It could be as easy as making saturated system.

Also ss steel wool right above hho level could do the trick.
Ar small tiny straw.

Alos some earlier planes have taking gass from one cell en bubbling trough the water in next cell from here to next cell>O>O>O making the hydrogen molecules to multiply there explosion potential (I'm not expert in this).

and the last cell woul have to have some device to keep the bubbles bursting so agresively making them smaller through bubbler with ss mesh ss wool and then out.

Whyle im here can anyone look @ this and tell me what is this imiges from meyers http://waterpoweredcar.com/stansgifs.html a psoted ne post with the name of the link

[HYDROTEKPRO]

To DEFINITELY trap electrolyte vapor and separate it from HHO gas it looks like the teflon based Goretex fabric is the material of choice for use here. Teflon will withstand the temperatures and the chemicals, and the porosity of the fabric should be fine enough to let HHO gas through, but not any vapor.

Better to post it up here for everybody, than to keep quiet and then find out somebody was going to patent that use of Goretex on Monday!:D

So what will this new generation of vapor traps look like? We'll be making a prototype next week!

I KNEW there was a reason for delaying our grand opening!

Some fabric places carry Goretex for sale by the square foot or square yard. It's a popular fabric for rain gear, other specialty clothing, etc.

Thanks to the thorough and well documented research of Smith03Jetta, a new industry standard has probably just been established!

Almost everybody missed it until now. I would like to thank Smith03Jetta for being so thorough and informative to us all.

Would the first official award from HHO Forums go to Smith03Jetta not only for finding this out, but also for letting everybody know? THIS makes a BIG impact on the whole HHO industry worldwide.

[1973dodger]

All I ask, is for someone to give me a little kickback for the first $1,000,000 they make after the gortex idea I had.:D Of course, that is if it works, if it does'nt, I know nothing, as Seargent Shultz would say.

1973dodger

[pj91gsx]

did you mean you tore down the whole motor or just the intake?

[stroker]

This is something to think about for sure. Also of note would be that is anyone here is using an HHO system with a vehicle that uses a turbo, you might want to look at your turbos compressor housing. All compressor housings are made of aluminum and could be of risk.

I have 2 vehicles that I am building units for and both are turbo charged. One is my 2005 VW Jetta GLI and the other is my 1996 Ford Powerstroke Diesel. I am wondering if the ultra high velocity of the air inside the compressor housing will keep the electrolite from damaging it? After I get them installed I will keep an eye on the turbos.

[stroker]

And here is a little something I copied from wikipedia on lye.

Hazardous reactions

Solid sodium hydroxide or solutions containing high concentrations of sodium hydroxide may cause chemical burns, permanent injury or scarring, and blindness. Lye (sodium hydroxide) may be harmful or fatal if swallowed.

Solvation of sodium hydroxide is highly exothermic, and the resulting heat may cause heat burns or ignite flammables.

Avoid all contact with organic tissue (including human skin, eyes, mouth, and animals or pets). Keep away from clothing. Avoid all contact with aluminium.

The combination of aluminium and sodium hydroxide results in a large production of hydrogen gas: 2Al(s) + 6NaOH(aq) → 3H2(g) + 2Na3AlO3(aq). Hydrogen gas is explosive; mixing lye (sodium hydroxide) and aluminium in a closed container is therefore dangerous. In addition to aluminium, lye (sodium hydroxide) may also react with magnesium, zinc (galvanized), tin, chromium, brass, and bronze to produce hydrogen gas and is therefore dangerous. Do not allow lye to contact these metals.

Lye may react with various sugars to generate carbon monoxide, which is a poisonous gas; mixing sodium hydroxide and sugar in a closed container is therefore dangerous. Do not allow lye to contact sugar.[5]

[Cadillac]

Just put a molecular sieve after the bubbler. A grade 4A will block anything that is harmful from entering the engine. The molecules are to big to go through. They look similar to an old school catalytic convertor. You have to buy the beads and make your own container. After a given amount of time the sieve will have to be cleaned and/or replace the beads. I have an air filter that I cut up to block the beads from escaping from the ends. I have not actually rode mine long enough but I would assume that a visual inspection of the filter papers appearance would be a tell tale as to when to service the sieve.


You could probably use something like the so called PCV enhancer shown on the water4gas website. Empty it out fill it with the beads. Wish I would have thought of that before I did mine.

[Uwee]

Mr. Smith were you using any bubbler on this setup? Could we get some background info on the setup or is there a thread i missed that lays this info out?

[Roland Jacques]

As far I know KOH or any other crystallizing chemical can not evaporate!
So it must be a mist effect from all the bubbles bursting and dispensing micro mist in to the HHo gas.It could be as easy as making saturated system.



I believe you hit the nail on the head. It is the mist or micro mist.

So the solution may be simple to and prevent or minimize the mist. Trying to remove after it in suspension is not the best approach IMO.

Filling the upper portion of the bubbler with a plastic mesh material such as Gutter guard or mesh like this packed tight.
http://cgi.ebay.com/PF4-Enkamat-Protein-Skimmer-Live-Coral-NeedleWheel-Mod_W0QQitemZ200246091478QQihZ010QQcategoryZ46308Q QcmdZViewItem

Filled from the top of the bubbler to 1" below the water line and you will greatly decrease any misting from bubble busting or sloshing.

Mesh by the yard http://aquaticeco.resultspage.com/aqua/Enkamat
Even those plastics dish scruby steel wool thingies

[Bossman]

Try directing the end of the output hose towards a dark colored tissue paper, if moisture is coming out ,it will show on the paper.

[Bossman]

This is some interesting material http://www.processsys.com/test_results.html or

[URLhttp://desiccant material[/URL]

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montmorillonite

[redneckgearhead34]

Ok I have a few ideas.

On one of my B&S motors there is a foams in the gas tank. I believe it is to prvent the gasoline from splashing around because the chipper/shredder vibrates a lot. You could fill your container with one of these(or just from the top to about and ich below the water).

Also one other thing I was thinking. If there is not enough surface area on a single bubble going through a bubbler to scrub the lye out. Why not break that bubble into thousands of tiny bubbles. It my brother fish tank he has some thing that looks like a stone fuel filter that breaks the air from the air pump into lots of tiny bubbles supposidly making the air dissolve in the water better. This would create more surface area touching the water hopefully keeping the lye out of the intake.

just a thought

[Q-Hack!]

I believe you hit the nail on the head. It is the mist or micro mist.

So the solution may be simple to and prevent or minimize the mist. Trying to remove after it in suspension is not the best approach IMO.

Filling the upper portion of the bubbler with a plastic mesh material such as Gutter guard or mesh like this packed tight.
http://cgi.ebay.com/PF4-Enkamat-Protein-Skimmer-Live-Coral-NeedleWheel-Mod_W0QQitemZ200246091478QQihZ010QQcategoryZ46308Q QcmdZViewItem

Filled from the top of the bubbler to 1" below the water line and you will greatly decrease any misting from bubble busting or sloshing.

Mesh by the yard http://aquaticeco.resultspage.com/aqua/Enkamat
Even those plastics dish scruby steel wool thingies


Another solution might be the bronze wool that people are using for there HHO torches.

[Painless]

Thinking back ( a hell of a long way! ) to my high school chemistry, we would use a condenser setup ( I think that's the right name? ) to turn gaseous liquids back to liquid. Basically, you ran the gas through a tube which was cooled by water, this dropped the temp and returned the gas to a liquid state.

Now, we could do something similar here, take a tall thin perspex or acrylic tube, put a small amount of vinegar in the bottom and bubble the gas from the top of the tube down to the bottom through the vinegar. This would provide one stage of cleaning, the rest of the gases would then travel up the long tube. If the tube were encased in an outer container full of water, this would cool down the tube condensing the remaining water vapor back into a liquid.

The unit would need to be mounted in an air flow area, such as behind the grill, to keep the outer water cool. Any vapor condensing in the tube would fall into the vinegar and be neutralized.

[Smith03Jetta]

FYI... NONE OF THE STUFF IN THIS POST WORKED... (UPDATED)

In response to an earlier question. I did not tear my entire engine down. When I was doing my repairs, I had to remove the air intake, filter housing, brake booster, brake pump and lots of other stuff. "I Tore down my engine" was not to be taken literally.

Here's the info on my setup.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=61&page=20

I'm not running a bubbler because of the backflow on my generator after It cooled off.

I'm thinking about doing a couple different things in combination to reduce the NaOH from getting to my engine.

1. I'm going to put some anti-slosh/spatter material in my case. It will sit directly on top of my plates and fill the entire top of the case.

2. I'm going to put in a checkvalve between the case and the outside world. This will let air in but not let anything out.

3. I'm going to put in a checkvalve on the HHO gas exit line. This will let HHO gas out and will not let anything else back in.

4. I'm going to build a bubbler, possibly a two stage bubbler.

5. The gas stream will run through a air stone to separate gas into small bubbles.

6. The ENTIRE bubbler(s) will be filled with porous material to prevent sloshing and encourage scrubbing.

7. There will be another checkvalve between the bubbler and the engine.

8. I'm going to build another device for introducing the HHO gas into the Plastic Air intake. It will attach to the bottom of the air intake. The HHO gas will vent into the air plenum from the bottom. Any sediment (That was visible in my photos) will settle in a small container attached to the underside of my air plenum. (See Attached Drawing)

[wljohns]

Bro I think the bubbler and the checkvallve on the unit to allow air in will stop the suction effect after unit shuts down. The idea about the area below catching anything else is nice. I truly believe that the lack of a bubbler caused your issues. Nonetheless I will start today using an additional container BEFORE my intake with a piece of cast aluminum inside it to test for any contamination.:)

[Painless]

Smith,

Your check valve on the generator itself will work well, I had the same sucking problem with my setup and the check valve did the job. For some reason, it also reduced the visible moisture in my HHO delivery line too. Not decided yet why it has helped with that though.

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm thinking your check valve worked to reduce the moisture in the line because the diaphragm on the check valve doesn't open very wide to let the HHO gas through. Maybe it doesn't open wide enough to let the water/NaOH vapor through.

[Painless]

Just to clarify, my check valve isn't fitted to the HHO delivery line, it's a separate connection. I just plumbed in another hose barb to the top of my electrolyte tank and ran some tubing (about 3 inches) with the check valve attached to the end.

On another note and to hopefully clarify some urgency in Smith's issue with those who are still on the fence or pondering (if any?):

I took my system apart today, I've accumulated about 15 hours of run time with the engine and HHO. I dismantled my Ram's air breather system and detached it from the throttle body to inspect. There is no damage that I can see to the throttle body yet, but there was a fair amount of white residue running from the HHO tube exit into the throttle body itself. I deliver my HHO right up to the idle hole in the throttle body.

I don't think I'm doing any damage yet, or at least not enough to be visible, but after only 15 hours of engine use with HHO it is apparent that a large amount of KOH sediment is making it's way into the air system.

Now is the time to act if you have hesitated, please don't leave it!

I took some pictures which I'm going to post on my thread.

[Smith03Jetta]

I just so happened to clean a throttle body for someone else this weekend. He drives a 2001 Chrysler 3.6 liter Town and Country Van. The Throttle body on the Chrysler was a matte finish. It is not shiny like mine is supposed to be. It might be difficult to notice any Chemical damage on that particular Throttle body. What you should notice is that the Butterfly valve should be shiny-ish. To me, it looks like you have some damage even after only 15 hours. Mine ran for several months to get the amount of damage I'm experiencing.

[Walt]

I did not read every response to this thread but one thing I have been thinking about to screen off the vapor is an HVLP air drier. It is a little cartrige that looks like a fuel filter. You can buy them for $4 at a auto paint store.

[precaster1@msn.com]

I did not read every response to this thread but one thing I have been thinking about to screen off the vapor is an HVLP air drier. It is a little cartrige that looks like a fuel filter. You can buy them for $4 at a auto paint store.What does HVLP mean, what are they normally used for?

[Painless]

To me, it looks like you have some damage even after only 15 hours.

That alone should be enough for everyone to take a look at their system, I should also underline that I am using KOH for my catalyst.

[redneckgearhead34]

What does HVLP mean, what are they normally used for?

I cannot tell you what it stands for but I know it is used to dehumidify the air going into the paint sprayers/air brushes used to paint vehicles

[countryboy18]

does this problem also happen with NaOH?

[Q-Hack!]

HVLP

High Volume Low Preasure

[Painless]

does this problem also happen with NaOH?

This problem will happen with all strong base catalysts. They prevent the buildup of oxides on aluminum to allow the water and aluminum reaction to keep going. This includes both KOH and NaOH.

[tbhavsar]

Hi Smith,

How number #2 solution will help? please throw some lights. "I'm going to put in a checkvalve between the case and the outside world. This will let air in but not let anything out."

Thanks

[Smith03Jetta]

How will checkvalves help? First you need to know their purpose. In this process, I proposed putting in a bubbler. That was assuming I had an air pocker in my HHO Generator. When the generator cools back down the air would contract and suck water back from my bubbler. In order to eliminate this back-flushing problem I would put a checkvalve between the bubbler and the Generator.

If I put a checkvalve between the bubbler and the generator it would produce a vacuum inside the generator that could damage either the checkvalve or the case itself. To eliminate the vacuum, allow air from the atmosphere to vent into the case to equalize the pressure to the outside atmosphere. To prevent HHO from escaping to the outside world, install a checkvalve on the atmospheric vent.

I'm also considering something else:

I could make my Pelican case a flooded system. In order to do this I would install a second gas tube and run both into a bubbler. This would eliminate the need for checkvalves all-together. I just don't like Checkvalves. It is my opinion that the cheap checkvalves could eventually get clogged with electrolyte sediment.

This design would potentially solve two problems. It would be impossible to have an explosion inside my Generator. Any explosion would be limited to the bubbler.

[cully]

some diesel cars have egr valves these are pulled by vacuum, this vacuum is controlled by a 12v 3 way solenoid valve connect one of these across the terminals of your cell so when the power is off it vents the cell letting air in
just a thought

[tbhavsar]

How will checkvalves help? First you need to know their purpose. In this process, I proposed putting in a bubbler. That was assuming I had an air pocker in my HHO Generator. When the generator cools back down the air would contract and suck water back from my bubbler. In order to eliminate this back-flushing problem I would put a checkvalve between the bubbler and the Generator.

If I put a checkvalve between the bubbler and the generator it would produce a vacuum inside the generator that could damage either the checkvalve or the case itself. To eliminate the vacuum, allow air from the atmosphere to vent into the case to equalize the pressure to the outside atmosphere. To prevent HHO from escaping to the outside world, install a checkvalve on the atmospheric vent.

I'm also considering something else:

I could make my Pelican case a flooded system. In order to do this I would install a second gas tube and run both into a bubbler. This would eliminate the need for checkvalves all-together. I just don't like Checkvalves. It is my opinion that the cheap checkvalves could eventually get clogged with electrolyte sediment.

This design would potentially solve two problems. It would be impossible to have an explosion inside my Generator. Any explosion would be limited to the bubbler.

Make sense for the back flow in to booster. Have you consider changing the catalyst NaOH to something else? Vinegar, alcohol..... Especially to protect engine and also winter on its ways.....

[Smith03Jetta]

I have not considered changing electrolytes. That may be an option but I was thinking of installing a stick-on heating element.

[DigitalMocking]

MrSmith, thanks for the warning, I was thinking about this the other night, what I came up with was a passthrough tube mounted on the side of my generator with a zinc anode in it. I'll get some light solid precipitate as the zinc gets used up, but I think we're talking about such small amounts that'd it be years before I need to replace.

[Stevo]

Potassium Sulphate has excellent compatibility with 316 stainless and "fair" vs. "not recommended" compatibility with aluminum.

Sodium Sulphate has good compatibility with 316 and 304 and "excellent" compatibility rating with aluminum.

http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/chemcompresults.asp

Both are rated "excellent" with silicone and polycarbonate. FYI

[naveed]

Has anyone tested any of these options yet to see which ones work? Also, anyone know if you can just coat your throttle body with "duracoat". The stuff they've been using on gun barrels and other metals.

[mrpleasant]

First of all, I've been a lurker for a while and this is my first post. My lurking is merely as an interest in alternative fuels and energy and I've found posts in this forum interesting and informative. Mr. Smith's experiments are impressive and courageous.

I thought I would post to hopefully help in this discussion. From Mr. Smith's photos it is not entirely clear to me if the damage he speaks of is aluminum oxidation or if it is chemical precipitate from water evaporation (leaving behind NaOH solid). In either case, the goal is to not have it there.

Several things stick out to me. First the pH of the electrolyte solution is going to be basic, meaning above a pH 7, and corrosive. To effectively ensure no potential corrosion you will need to neutralize any liquid getting into contact with your automobile parts. Second, you want to try to keep liquid from getting the regardless of the liquid's pH.

If I were to try to solve your problem, I'd create a neutralizer in the process to attempt to get the pH to around 7. Vinegar is a weak acid and may be helpful in this regard. However, NaOH is a moderate to strong base. Thus, the only way you can ensure you are neutralizing is to have an inline pH meter. I would suggest this to be a difficult and potentially expensive addition. But, adding a neutralizing bubbler is better than not having one even if you don't measure pH. To complicate matters more chemically, the solubility of any compound in a liquid changes with pH. If you change the pH of the solution, you change the solubility. Thus, with changing pH you may cause the precipitation of any dissolved compounds.

In the chemical industry, scrubbers employ devices called mist eliminators. Do a google search on them and you may get some ideas for design. But, packed plastic mesh above the liquid in the gas stream is certainly on the right track. See this link for more general info.

http://www.amistco.com/PRODUCTS/ELIMINATORS/index.html

I might also suggest an inline filter such as this one from harbor freight. You may even be able to pack it with some plastic mesh or glass beads to assist in eliminating mist. It has a built in drain to assist in the draining of captured mist.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94346

Again, I have just been lurking to absorb information. I have not built a system and not sure I ever will. I am not selling anything. I have a couple of engineering degrees, but bow to those with experience here. Just adding what may be helpful.

[Smith03Jetta]

Well, I changed my HHO Gen over to a flooded system with two lines going to a bubbler. I filled the bubbler with Spun Glass air filter material and water. This did nothing to reduce the amount of visible vapor in the HHO stream.The only change was that the gas flow was not steady. It seemed to put out HHO in bursts with 1 or 2 seconds in between. It used to produce a steady stream.

I'm going back to the drawing board on this thing. I do like the mist elimination material mentioned in a previous post.

[Stevo]

Another thing to mention is that the air line filter listed here:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94346

is made from polycarbonate, so not sure how well it will hold up in the long run against KOH or NaOH. It could be that the concentration you are using will be okay though. BTW, what is your concentration level of electrolyte to water?

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm using a high concentration. I don't have a number for you. I think it would be a good idea to flush out my system and start over again with a new electrolyte mixture which has a lower concentration of NaOH.

I've been looking at several types of mist eliminator filtration systems. So far I am having trouble finding anything built on a small scale. Most of the systems use the woven nylon air filter material. I used to work in the air conditioning business. I liked those filters.

It just seems that the ultra-fine mist will be difficult to strip out of the HHO Gas.

[mrpleasant]

Unfortunately, you are battling heat in most generators also. The hotter the gas, the higher the solubility of water in that gas (i.e. humidity). Once you cool the gas, water will condensate out. If the generator temperature is hotter than your intake, it will condensate there. So, you may have mist carryover problem and condensate problems.

Adding an interim cooling step may help greatly both with the mist and condensation. Unfortunately, an engine is abundant on heat not cooling. Perhaps passing the gas through a finned air-cooled heat exchanger, with a design allowing for condensate collection, would help. The condensing water may also help to drop out the mist. Or, used in conjunction with a mist eliminator it may minimize the problem considerably.

Or, maybe you could start experimenting again with acetone!

[Painless]

I picked up one of these in Walmart yesterday in the automotive section (for under $3):

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0536.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0536.JPG)

It's a Fram fuel line filter. You can blow through one end of it and feel the air on the other end with very little resistance, I'm wondering if it will be of use in cleaning out the KOH / NaOH from the HHO line. I'll post my results when I have some.

[resago]

what if you put a bar of AL in your bubbler?

[Smith03Jetta]

If you put a bar of AL in your bubbler it will constantly make Hydrogen gas even with the electricity turned off because of the NaOH in your bubbler water. Not a good idea but an idea none-the-less.

[bigapple]

well if i remember correctly from the basics of chemistry 1, the only way for a caustic metal hydroxide compound to react with aluminum, is to have a means of getting carried there (water vapor). and since these electrolytes are nonexistent as gases (well very very very high temps they are), if u eliminate the water vapor, it seems like that would solve the issue altogether. i could be wrong but if u take lye and put it on a slab of aluminum foil, it doesnt react until u add water. seems like it needs a solvent to break it into its most basic forms (Na/K and OH)

[bigapple]

Unfortunately, you are battling heat in most generators also. The hotter the gas, the higher the solubility of water in that gas (i.e. humidity). Once you cool the gas, water will condensate out. If the generator temperature is hotter than your intake, it will condensate there. So, you may have mist carryover problem and condensate problems.

Adding an interim cooling step may help greatly both with the mist and condensation. Unfortunately, an engine is abundant on heat not cooling. Perhaps passing the gas through a finned air-cooled heat exchanger, with a design allowing for condensate collection, would help. The condensing water may also help to drop out the mist. Or, used in conjunction with a mist eliminator it may minimize the problem considerably.

Or, maybe you could start experimenting again with acetone!

although this is true, if u add a filter in the outlet line of ur generator to gather the water vapor (which has electrolyte in it), thats really the more caustic chemicals. simple condensation may not be good for ur engine, but its definitely negligible compared to water containing lye

[Painless]

well if i remember correctly from the basics of chemistry 1, the only way for a caustic metal hydroxide compound to react with aluminum, is to have a means of getting carried there (water vapor). and since these electrolytes are nonexistent as gases (well very very very high temps they are), if u eliminate the water vapor, it seems like that would solve the issue altogether. i could be wrong but if u take lye and put it on a slab of aluminum foil, it doesnt react until u add water. seems like it needs a solvent to break it into its most basic forms (Na/K and OH)

The actual reaction is more simple than that, aluminum and water want to react to create hydrogen, basically, the oxygen in the water attaches to the aluminum releasing the hydrogen. Normally, with just water, oxides form on the aluminum preventing further reaction. The addition of a strong base like KOH or NaOH prevents the oxidization allowing the reaction to continue.

[bigapple]

The actual reaction is more simple than that, aluminum and water want to react to create hydrogen, basically, the oxygen in the water attaches to the aluminum releasing the hydrogen. Normally, with just water, oxides form on the aluminum preventing further reaction. The addition of a strong base like KOH or NaOH prevents the oxidization allowing the reaction to continue.

but if we prevent the base from getting there by adding a water catcher or some sort of gas filtration, wouldnt that prevent the reaction from continuing?

[Painless]

but if we prevent the base from getting there by adding a water catcher or some sort of gas filtration, wouldnt that prevent the reaction from continuing?

I'm hoping that a condenser type setup along with a filter will do the job, check out my plans for a new bubbler in my thread:

http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=13956&postcount=165

[resago]

ah, condenser

a TEC or peltier may be used here!!

[redneckgearhead34]

I'm hoping that a condenser type setup along with a filter will do the job, check out my plans for a new bubbler in my thread:

http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=13956&postcount=165

Painless: I really like your bubbler. If I built one I would make one small addition. I would put an aquarium airstone in the bottom where your "dirty" HHO. This will make your bubbles smaller creating more surface area.

kinda like this one http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/199510/product.web?gdftrk=xh23lc0p/7HDy~g3JgKLc2A7PFgg/Y5ve0vSk7miJq0AARufBbCBzCWgaMIxhhAG~CUaypHPe50evHY OYvDJgE655GxGG2IkuQU/kS6QFuHUuMHiNr9x58UyInnG1GcISjymafzZ0doiNUj2NKmgCA __

[bigapple]

I'm hoping that a condenser type setup along with a filter will do the job, check out my plans for a new bubbler in my thread:

http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=13956&postcount=165

wow thats a very good idea. something u mite want to consider adding is a small tip for an aquarium thats basically an aerator. its set up like a small sponge and breaks up the big bubbles into smaller ones. if u put it on the outlet tip of ur bubbler at the bottom, that may give u more surface area to neutralize the strong bases in these bubbles

im doing a quick little experiment for those of u who arent too caring about their cars and dont mind a little trial and error that mite cause some minor aluminum deterioration (very small)

i bought a small fram fuel filter and directed the flow of air the direction that fuel would go. i clamped down each end and i ran the generator and its got minimal backpressure and still bubbles well. ive oriented it upward to where when the outer reservoir slightly fills with this condensation, itll drip back into the generator, somewhat recycling the fluid

heres a pic of it. ill see how well it works over time and keep u guys posted (somehow the image was mirrored so disregard everything being on the wrong side)

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo10.jpg

[redneckgearhead34]

wow thats a very good idea. something u mite want to consider adding is a small tip for an aquarium thats basically an aerator. its set up like a small sponge and breaks up the big bubbles into smaller ones. if u put it on the outlet tip of ur bubbler at the bottom, that may give u more surface area to neutralize the strong bases in these bubbles

im doing a quick little experiment for those of u who arent too caring about their cars and dont mind a little trial and error that mite cause some minor aluminum deterioration (very small)

i bought a small fram fuel filter and directed the flow of air the direction that fuel would go. i clamped down each end and i ran the generator and its got minimal backpressure and still bubbles well. ive oriented it upward to where when the outer reservoir slightly fills with this condensation, itll drip back into the generator, somewhat recycling the fluid

heres a pic of it. ill see how well it works over time and keep u guys posted (somehow the image was mirrored so disregard everything being on the wrong side)

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp257/bigapple828/Photo10.jpg

I am diggin the cold air intake. I am hopeing to build one soon.

[bigapple]

I am diggin the cold air intake. I am hopeing to build one soon.

thanx man. i will say that thing alone gave me a mpg gain and u can hear the air going in, which tells u it gets much more air than a conventional air cleaner/box. i completely removed the stock airbox and used that location for the CAI and generator. its just a cheap 30 dollar one from autozone made from cotton (same material as a k&N). i use K&N recharge to clean it and it seems to work well. obviously its not as durable as the more expensive K&N but i think for just 30 bucks versus close to 100, its a steal.

i just finishing T-ing my output line from that injection location to also on the vacuum line at the PCV valve. we'll see what results i get

[naveed]

If you pour vinegar in your bubbler will it neutralize the KOH. Also, how much will you need and how often will you need to replace it. Also is there a way to test if you are getting any electrolyte with the hho production. I'd like to check to see if it works after I have fixed the setup.

[Smith03Jetta]

This information on the size of water particles is from the following website:

http://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?cj6005

"Small-angle X-ray scattering investigation of water droplets in mist:

Y. F. Yano, K. Matsuura, T. Fukazu, F. Abe, A. Wakisaka, H. Kobara, K. Kaneko, A. Kumagai, Y. Katsuya, M. Okui and M. Tanaka
Abstract: Small-angle X-ray scattering measurements of water droplets in a mist were carried out using the BL15XU beamline at SPring-8. The diameter of the water droplets generated by ultrasonic atomization was found to be 50 nm and had no distribution in the range under 50 nm, as predicted. The study also showed how difficult it is to measure the small-angle scattering of low-density materials, such as liquid droplets in a mist."

I converted 50 nm into microns. The ultrasonic atomization of water produced no water droplets smaller than 50 nanometer = 0.05 micron.

Any filter that filters out particles this size should do the job completely. Armed with this information I started looking for a good filter.

I purchased a disposable paint gun air filter today at my local paint supply. These things are designed to remove water vapor and oil vapor from air lines while painting cars using compressed air paint guns. It filters down to .01 microns (10 nm). That should be extemely effective at filtering water vapor particles >= .05 microns (50 nm). It will filter up to 30 cubic/feet minute. That shouldn't be a problem. ;)

I also theorize that water droplets that contain trace amounts of NaOH would be larger than 50 microns. If so then the filter should be 100% effective at removing the NaOH from the gas line.

I will try it out and see how it works.

I also talked to the paint store guy about another filter. It costs $95.00 and is a paper roll filter. It's practically a roll of toilet paper inside a painted metal housing. Really nice. A paint shop can run one of these for an entire month before needing to change out the filter element.

I decided to go the $7.00 route this time.

Patent number: 3872008

Photos attached.

[resago]

charmin or cottonelle?:D

[Painless]

I purchased a disposable paint gun air filter today at my local paint supply. These things are designed to remove water vapor and oil vapor from air lines while painting cars using compressed air paint guns. It filters down to .01 microns (10 nm). That should be extemely effective at filtering water vapor particles >= .05 microns (50 nm). It will filter up to 30 cubic/feet minute. That shouldn't be a problem. ;)

Any information on what the filter element is constructed from?

[Smith03Jetta]

The filter housing is plastic. The filter media is made from white plastic fiber wound round a center plastic spool. According to the patent information:

A disposable filter unit in which a housing comprises confronting, cup-shaped sections arranged for sealing juncture at their contiguous annular flanges. Contained by the housing is a filter element in the form of a roll of compressible fabric wound on a compressible core. The roll of compressible fabric is slightly greater axially than the inner axial dimension of the housing and the radial dimension of the roll of compressible fabric is such as to fit snugly within the housing. When the cup-shaped sections of the housing are moved toward one another in the axial direction to bring the annular flanges thereof in sealing engagement, the roll of compressible fabric is compressed axially. This action causes the roll of compressible fabric to expand radially and thereby causing the housing to exert a compressive radial force against the roll of compressible fabric. Thus, fluid to be filtered is inhibited from by-passing the filter element. The annular flanges of the cup-shaped sections for the housing are permanently sealed by sonic welding, heat sealing or through the use of adhesives.

The fluid is forced to pass between the layers of the rolled plastic fabric for the axial length of the filtering element and the interlocking fibers or the surfaces of the compressed layers provide a labyrinth of submicronic openings that will effectively entrap the suspended solid particles to be filtered from the fluid.

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm not joking about the filter cartrige on the larger paper filter. The paint guy told me that when people buy the filter from them they use up the first element and then make their replacement filters out of a toilet paper roll. ;)

[Smith03Jetta]

Here's what I'm going to do tonight. I'm going to remove the bubbler I installed for testing. It sucks anyway...

I'm going to remove the excess water from the case. I flooded the system to test the two-tube bubbler I made.

I'm going to install this little orange filter and do a visible vapor test. I'm going to clean the inside of my air plenum with a really good cleaner.

I'm going to install a brand new gas line from the filter to the car's air plenum because my old one still has some sediment in it.

I'll drive it for a couple days and then disassemble everything and look for residue. If I don't see any residue I'll drive it for a week and look for residue. If I don't see a problem, I'll inspect my system on a weekly basis to look for problems.

[Jaxom]

Sounds like a good approach. I had no idea those little disposable filters were effective down to .01micron.....that could be the answer right there. Even if you have to replace it every time you change your oil, it would be highly cost effective.

[Smith03Jetta]

Ok, here's what I did tonight.

I pulled my front bumper off. I removed my entire HHO system. Everything except the wires...

I then drained my Pelican case and inspected the inside of the case. It's in perfect condition. The plates are really nice and the plastic case and gasket have not been affected by 3 months of use. I will again have to endorse Pelican Cases for your in-car system.

I replaced the water and NaOH with new stuff and drained the old stuff in a gallon jug for later disposal My drain may need cleaning...

I converted by goofy looking bubbler into a water trap and drain and installed it above my HHO generator. I then adjusted the NaOH level to pull 14 amps. I checked the output line for the telltale white mist. It was there as before. I then put the orange filter on the output line and watched it closely for about 5 minutes. No white mist. Nothing but clear air. The gas output was the same as before when I dipped the hose into a bucket of water.

I then installed the orange .01 micron filter between the water trap and the throttle body.

Now that my car's other problems (Sensors, Vacuum Hoses, Fuel pressure regulator, Throttle Body) have been fixed... I will start testing again. I will run the HHO for two days and pull my air plenum and output components apart and check for white NaOH sediment. It should be as easy to spot as a rainbow bumper sticker in San Francisco.

If I find nothing I'll check again 7 days later. If I still find no sediment after 7 days I will check the output volume and see if the filter element is getting clogged. As long as I'm getting a decent flow of HHO gas and the filter is not producing too much back-pressure it should work fine. This appears to be something I will do weekly checks on when I'm topping off my water.

The filters cost $7.00 so replacing them once every couple months if necessary should not be a problem.

Oh, I put my bumper back on too...

[Painless]

Wishing you the best of luck, Smith!

[Smith03Jetta]

Update: I found no damage to my Touareg's throttle body. I took it apart for cleaning this morning. I ran that one only 1 week or so it didn't have time to get damaged... That's a good thing. A REALLY GOOD THING!

No sediment in my Jetta air plenum or throttle body yet after 1 day of driving using .01 micron filtered HHO.

Has anybody else found any damage? Have you inspected?

[resago]

awesome. is the filter material turning brown?
how long do you think it will last?

[Smith03Jetta]

I do not know if it is turning brown or not. I have not taken the filter apart to inspect after only 1 day I think it's too early. I'm not sure how I can even expect it to turn brown. NaOH is white, Water is clear, Case was clear after 3 months of run time. Plastic Cloth in filter is white too. How could it turn brown?

[resago]

oh, thought it was paper.

[resago]

another idea.
buy some cheap Al and brass tubing, 2 feet of each.coil it.connect them.
it would go between your filter and bubbler.

reasoning behind it: NaOH reacts with Al, KOH reacts with brass. if there is any in your output, let it react with this cheap component instead of your intake. If it corrodes away, just buy another 2 ft.

[ridelong]

I took the intake manifold off my Ford Ranger yesterday. I am running the HHO into the intake manifold. Been running KOH/distilled for around 6 months. Could see no corrosion at all.

Disassembled the brass wool flash supressor. Been using it for about 2 months. Could see no corrosion of the brass wool at all.

I feel very relieved.

[Painless]

I tested out my 'cleansing bubbler' this morning (see my thread for the design) and can report that the white mist is completely gone from the HHO. Output in LPM was not affected at all.

Haven't performed the aluminum can test yet though.

[Smith03Jetta]

I would suggest that that aluminum can test would not show you very much. Aluminum cans have a varnish on them that keep them from oxidizing.

I will also suggest that there is more than one way of getting rid of the electrote in the gas stream. Scrubbing bubbler should work but it didn't work for me. I would also say that a plate design with plates with slightly wider plate gaps than mine would not make as much mist. They wouldn't make as much gas but they wouldn't make as much mist either...

I would also suggest that some of my problem could have been liquid from my generator being pushed up through my gas line and directly into my air plenum.

Just some suggestions.

[Mindcrime13]

does the vinegar really neutralize the electrolyte? have anyone tried successfully?

[Atm0spher]

what gass does it make when you mix a strong mix of lye and water and aluminum cuz i was getting 3.5 lpm of what ever it was.

[Smith03Jetta]

Atmosphere:

It makes almost Pure hydrogen. The problem is that it won't stop. It will just keep reacting until the aluminum is used up. The oxygen that is produced in the reaction combines with the aluminum to make Aluminum Oxide so it does not vent off with the hydrogen.

[Painless]

I just performed another inspection after running the cleansing bubbler for about four days now. No traces of residue in the intake or any damage to the throttle body.

I have noticed that there is the slightest scent of the vinegar in the HHO gas, but I don't think this should be a problem.

[redneckgearhead34]

Painless,
If you dont mind could you take some detailed pictures of your scubbing bubbler and post them. I would liek to look at it a little more closely. I need to build one and not really sure where to start.

If you have allready done this somewhere just point in the right direction

[777Braveheart]

Smith,

Is this the filter you referred to earlier? The red one.

http://www.gleempaint.com/gunfilforwag.html

[Smith03Jetta]

777. Not...

I posted photos and specs earlier, go back and read.

[777Braveheart]

Sorry dude. I went back and got some clarity. How long would you say your orange filters are lasting?

[Roland Jacques]

Painless,
If you dont mind could you take some detailed pictures of your scubbing bubbler and post them. I would liek to look at it a little more closely. I need to build one and not really sure where to start.

If you have allready done this somewhere just point in the right direction
I really like his design. I used a simular one, it did not have the bubbler at the end of the coil, i like painless's better. http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=13956&postcount=165

[777Braveheart]

Would injecting your HHO gas before the air filter also accomplish filtering out the KOH?

[Q-Hack!]

Smith03Jetta,

Now that its has been a few months, how well is that filter working?

I am curious as to its longevity.

[chris1200]

Hello, I think the best solution is BAKING SODA, it's safe for users and to our cars...;)

[daddymikey1975]

Hello, I think the best solution is BAKING SODA, it's safe for users and to our cars...;)

but no to our generators. baking soda leaves nasty brown goo.

[coffeeachiever]

It also gets used up in the electrolysis process doesn't it? If so, then it's not a true catalyst. You would have to continuously monitor your e lyte to water ratio. Just thinking out loud.

[chris1200]

but no to our generators. baking soda leaves nasty brown goo.

I prefer cleaning my generator than repairing a costly engine or risk injury.

To monitor electrolyte ratio just read the amps...

I don't think of it as a catalyst, it just gives water conductivity. A property that pure water lacks.

[Q-Hack!]

You know... something keeps bothering me about the "idea" that baking soda has to keep being replaced in this process. While it does get converted into something else, it doesn't mean you need to keep replacing it with new.

If you take one NaHCO3 (baking soda) and mix it with two H2O molecules.
When you apply electrolysis, it breaks up the molecules into individual atoms.
Individual atoms are not stable by themselves and want to combine quickly with either a similar atom or at least something compatible.
So, NaHCO3 + 2(H2O) yields NaOH + CO2 + 2H2 + O2
Sodium hydroxide + carbon dioxide + dihydrogen(x2) + dioxygen are all stable compounds.
The CO2, H2 and O2 all leave the system as gas, which leaves you with NaOH.
Since you are left with sodium hydroxide, you shouldn't have to add any more electrolyte to the HHO generator, just water.

I suspect the idea comes from people who didn't pay attention to the fact that there electrolyte was being sprayed into there engine and thus had to keep replacing it. If this is happening then yes baking soda would be appear to get used up.

Short answer; baking soda is NOT safe for your engine after electrolysis. Best to keep all electrolyte out of your engine.

[chris1200]

You know... something keeps bothering me about the "idea" that baking soda has to keep being replaced in this process. While it does get converted into something else, it doesn't mean you need to keep replacing it with new.

If you take one NaHCO3 (baking soda) and mix it with two H2O molecules.
When you apply electrolysis, it breaks up the molecules into individual atoms.
Individual atoms are not stable by themselves and want to combine quickly with either a similar atom or at least something compatible.
So, NaHCO3 + 2(H2O) yields NaOH + CO2 + 2H2 + O2
Sodium hydroxide + carbon dioxide + dihydrogen(x2) + dioxygen are all stable compounds.
The CO2, H2 and O2 all leave the system as gas, which leaves you with NaOH.
Since you are left with sodium hydroxide, you shouldn't have to add any more electrolyte to the HHO generator, just water.

I suspect the idea comes from people who didn't pay attention to the fact that there electrolyte was being sprayed into there engine and thus had to keep replacing it. If this is happening then yes baking soda would be appear to get used up.

Short answer; baking soda is NOT safe for your engine after electrolysis. Best to keep all electrolyte out of your engine.

I agree NaOH is harmful to any engine. But only on higher concentrations!
I agree NaOH is formed from Baking Soda. But only TRACE amounts, not harmful!

In fact, It is formed from its equilibrium in water not from electrolysis:
CO32− +2 H2O ⇋ HCO3− + H2O + OH− ⇋ H2CO3 +2 OH−

H2CO3 +2 H2O ⇋ HCO3− + H3O+ + H2O ⇋ CO32− +2 H3O+

In fact, bicarbonate plays a vital role of pH buffering in our bodies. It regulates rate of breathing in order to remove CO2 from the blood.

In fact, you can brush your teeth with Baking Soda.

In fact, pure water has it's own equilibrium (a normal process that occurs in water without electrolysis) and forms -OH. But trace amounts, not harmful

2H2O (l) ⇋ H30 + (aq) + OH - (aq)

[Q-Hack!]

I agree NaOH is harmful to any engine. But only on higher concentrations!
I agree NaOH is formed from Baking Soda. But only TRACE amounts, not harmful!

In fact, It is formed from its equilibrium in water not from electrolysis:
CO32− +2 H2O ⇋ HCO3− + H2O + OH− ⇋ H2CO3 +2 OH−

H2CO3 +2 H2O ⇋ HCO3− + H3O+ + H2O ⇋ CO32− +2 H3O+

In fact, bicarbonate plays a vital role of pH buffering in our bodies. It regulates rate of breathing in order to remove CO2 from the blood.

In fact, you can brush your teeth with Baking Soda.

In fact, pure water has it's own equilibrium (a normal process that occurs in water without electrolysis) and forms -OH. But trace amounts, not harmful

2H2O (l) ⇋ H30 + (aq) + OH - (aq)

I agree with everything except one point...

"...NaOH is formed from Baking Soda. But only TRACE amounts"

While it would be true, early on, that there would be more baking soda than sodium hydroxide. Over time it will eventually be the reverse condition. At that point, we are talking about concentrations high enough to be dangerous to the engine. When this occurs is dependent on the HHO generator design, volume of electrolyte storage., etc... After 6 months, you really have no idea if you have more baking soda or sodium hydroxide in your HHO generator. So my point stands... it is better to NOT suck anything, other than clean HHO into the engine.

[livehho]

Warning, There is a risk of damage to your aluminum engine parts.

It can be prevented but please read below...

I mentioned this on my thread but I'll repeat for you:

Both my HHO devices put out a pretty decent volume of gas (1 - 1.5 liters) but any device that puts out that much HHO also puts out some water vapor that contains trace amounts of your Electrolyte. That electrolyte is pulled in past your throttle body and into your intake and into your cylinders. The vapors will eventually settle on the aluminum parts and start to corrode them.

I did not find this out until this week. I had some Non-HHO related car problems. My Brake booster went out. I also had a bad vacuum hose on my fuel pressure regulator. I had a bad Coolant Temp Sensor too. When I tore down my engine to fix these problems I discovered the corroding aluminum parts.

I'm talking specifically about the Throttle body housing. It should have been nice and shiny after I cleaned it but it had lost it's shiny finish and was pitting in certain places, Heavy pitting was occurring near where the plastic air plenum connected to the throttle body. I also had mineral deposits on the side walls that were inhibiting the butterfly valve from freely moving. There's no way this could have occured under normal operating conditions. I've checked...

The only thing under my hood that could have caused it was the Sodium Hydroxide. It eats Aluminum for lunch.

I cleaned my throttle body. It had oil and chemical buildup on it. It was causing my engine to run like crap. After cleaning it and putting it back together my engine started running like new again.

The only problem I've got now is trying to FOOLPROOF my HHO gas output so I don't get any NaOH in my intake. Some people on this forum (Including myself, probably) have stated that the electrolyte will stay in the HHO generator but IT IS NOT TRUE! I've got a damaged throttle body to prove it. It still functions properly but it will eventually quit working if the corrosion gets much worse. I'll be out $500 to replace it.

Now you can do what you will with this information but I would sincerely recommend that EVERYBODY on this forum inspect your throttle body for corrosion, regardless of what electrolyte you are using in your HHO Gen. You may not be able to see the corrosion on your carb or throttle body but you can use throttle body cleaner to clean your throttle body and Carb cleaner to clean your Carb to be able to do an inspection. It is definitely worth the 5 to 10 dollars to clean your throttle body. Cleaning it will definitely make your car run better and use less gas even if you don't have corrosion.

Be extremely careful and gentle while cleaning your throttle body. I recommend removing it from your car to clean it. There are sensitive electronic components/sensors that can be damaged if you drop it or use carb cleaner instead of throttle body cleaner. Trust me on this. Look up instructions on GOOGLE for cleaning your specific type of throttle body. They will come in handy.

The throttle body should be shiny on the inside after cleaning. If it is not, then you've got problems.

This is a warning... Please take heed!
how long after installing your HHO system did you notice your corroding problems withing your Throttle body housing? thanks

[Painless]

how long after installing your HHO system did you notice your corroding problems withing your Throttle body housing? thanks

I found mild pitting on my throttle body after 15 hours of HHO runtime at 2.3 LPM.

[livehho]

I found mild pitting on my throttle body after 15 hours of HHO runtime at 2.3 LPM.
even with the cleansing bubbler Mk2 system?

[Painless]

even with the cleansing bubbler Mk2 system?

Not a trace of it since I started using my original cleansing bubbler. The pitting was my inspiration to design it.

[livehho]

Not a trace of it since I started using my original cleansing bubbler. The pitting was my inspiration to design it.
indeed original design. i'm about to try it. thanks.

[Mark'sGas]

I've been reading the last 15 pages of post about the HHO pitting probs. I think that most every one that has posted on this thread are piping HHO into their intake air induction tube/air flow tube. If so, that would mean the HHO would have to flow through the throttle body and then into the intake. The speed the HHO entering the engine will vary, because of throttle position. I know this sounds stupid but bare with me for a moment. I'm talking about air velocity. Now having said that, if you place a small 1/4" or 3/8" dia. tube into a 4" dia. tube, the smaller tube will loss a lot of it's pressure and have to rely on the air flow coming through the air flow tube to reach the engine. At idol HHO well not be moving as fast as it would under acceleration, therefore allowing the HHO to collect to the throttle body and cause pitting. It maybe possible to correct this problem by simply moving the HHO tube to a direct vaccum port located in the intake plentum. The reason why, is that the HHO will mix better with the air in the intake plentum and every intake plentum (no matter the make or model) vaccum port has a steel tube pressed in to receive the vaccum hose. HHO being delivered this way may come in contact with aluminum but only for a brief moment, if any at all.

Just the Newbie hinking out loud!

[Painless]

Delivery method is certainly worth thinking about.

I deliver my HHO to the bottom of my throttle body, right where the idle bypass hole is. I should also note that I found the biggest streak of white residue in a line from my delivery tube right through this part of the intake.

I still feel that the safe way is to just ensure that the catalyst doesn't make it that far with the water vapor. With my cleansing bubbler you can't even see the white mist coming from the HHO hose.

Another point we do need to bare in mind is that removing the water vapor will reduce the effects of our generators as the water vapor assists the power stroke process. This is why I'm also working on a water injection system.

[livehho]

This is some interesting material http://www.processsys.com/test_results.html or

[URLhttp://desiccant material[/URL]

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montmorillonite
The Membrane RZ looks promising. Have you tried it yet?

It would be good to see some testing results

[XDERAJX]

does a water vapor catcher prevent this?

[Philldpapill]

This may be a silly solution to the Al corrosion problem in your engine.... But has anyone considered running your HHO output(after the bubbler) through a double filter with aluminum powder between filters? This way, any reactive electrolyte should react with the aluminum powder in the filter, thus rendering the HHO gas output inert? Granted, you might want to change the "filter out every so often so that you are consistently ensured a good, reactive supply of aluminum powder.

This can also be used to detect any electrolyte output from your bubbler. If the powder begins to look like it has reacted, then your bubbler isn't scrubbing the gas properly.

[oicu812]

Damn phill ! something I finally agree with you:D I was thinking the same thing but you beat me to it:cool:

[Philldpapill]

LOL I have an ok idea now and then. :)

I've looked at getting powdered aluminum, and it's pretty cheap stuff. You can order it from a huge number of places for about $15 per pound. Sure beats spending $$$ on replacing engine parts...

I also saw some videos on "How to make your own Al powder/granules". If you have an old blender that you don't plan on using anymore, through some alunimum foil in it and make a smoothie out of it. However, it might be a good idea to get it very fine, but not micron size. Maybe the size of sand particles so that there is no chance of it getting into your intake manifolds.

[oicu812]

I saw those video's too, a small ball mill is affordable also. Also when aluminium decomposes to aluminium oxide a hell of a lot of h2 is released. I work as a powerlineman so I have an endless supply of scrap aluminium

[Philldpapill]

oicu812, what decomposition reaction are you talking about? The reaction with Al and KOH? Normal Al oxidation with just O2 doesn't give off any, and the reaction with KOH produces very little in this application(although Al reacts vigorously in a large amount of KOH solution).

[oicu812]

yes thats true... in my experiments with aluminum and koh and i didn't use a bubbler I introduced the hho/water vapor koh mix directly into a bed of aluminum. the reaction is very slow but does happen and it does release a considerable amount of h2.

[mistergoble]

If you utilize a fully adjustable pwm and calculate to match the resonant frequency with your cells mass, instead of an electrolyte, this problem will be prevented. By using DI water, containing no ions whatsoever, hexvalent chromium production will also be neutralized. After all, isn't the purpose to create and use a fuel without the footprint?

[jdlev]

I'm not sure if this problem with water vapor carrying electrolytes to the engine has been solved yet, but has anyone considered using an air compressors vapor filter. I've got one on my 16 gallon compressor at home. It pulls most of the water out of the air for painting. Anyone tried that? Pretty cheap too...should be around $10-15 at lowes.

[lhazleton]

These filters won't work. I can't, at the moment, remember why, but
Larry had explained it in another thread.

[H2OPWR]

These filters won't work. I can't, at the moment, remember why, but
Larry had explained it in another thread.

Those air compressor filters are designed for a much higher flow rate than our HHO devices put out. I have tried several and they do nothing at all. The best solution is simply a well designed bubbler that breakes the bubbles up over and over. Getting the moisture out of HHO is really not that difficult and everyone using a reactor really needs a well thought out and designed bubbler.

Larry

[jdlev]

Those air compressor filters are designed for a much higher flow rate than our HHO devices put out. I have tried several and they do nothing at all. The best solution is simply a well designed bubbler that breakes the bubbles up over and over. Getting the moisture out of HHO is really not that difficult and everyone using a reactor really needs a well thought out and designed bubbler.

Larry

How about a simple screen immersed at the bottom of the bubbler that the bubbles have to pass through (like on a screened in porch)? Or an oil filter immersed in the bubbler that the hho has to pass through?

[lhazleton]

Why not just build a simple bubbler with an air-stone in the bottom?
They're cheap and easy to build.

[H2OPWR]

Why not just build a simple bubbler with an air-stone in the bottom?
They're cheap and easy to build.

I keep hearing that many folks have made that work for them. I have tried a couple of times and the air stone keeps coming apart on me. They only last a few hours before turning to sand in the bottom of the bubbler. Maybe I am just not getting the right air stone because I can not seem to get it to work.

Larry

[myoldyourgold]

Larry, here is what you need. I have been using these for over 3 years and no problems. They can even be cleaned with strong chemicals if needed. I have not had to clean mine and they have a few 1000 hours on them.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1560/Porous-Plastic-Diffusers/air%20stone/4

[astrocady]

Larry, here is what you need. I have been using these for over 3 years and no problems. They can even be cleaned with strong chemicals if needed. I have not had to clean mine and they have a few 1000 hours on them.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1560/Porous-Plastic-Diffusers/air%20stone/4

Thank you for the info. I have been looking at these, but hadn't gotten actually tried them. I just ordered 2 of them!

Steve

[myoldyourgold]

Steve make sure you ordered the right ones for the volume of your reactor(s). They have the cfm listed. 1 cfm = 28.32 Liters per minute. You will really like these babies!!

[myoldyourgold]

Your welcome Steve any time Carter

[SilverHHO]

Hmm,

How about using distilled white vinegar as your bubbler content?

Russ.

Seems to be a soluce since white vinegar is in fact ascetic acid that "kills" electrolytes vapors. I recommand to use it in a double bubbler.

#1 tube allow condensation deposit
#2 tube eliminates electrolytes tracks

You need to connect tubes to each other like shown below with 2 diving tubes, it allow vinegar to flow back to # tube1 when you stop your engine, because of the HHO cooling and "retracting" in the tank thus creating vacuum.
When you start again the vinegar is pulled to #2.

You also need to flush & replace vinegar regularly because it mixes with condensation overtime, and loose efficiency.

That's it.... I hope you can understand my explanations because my mother language is not english !

That beeing said, the only question is to know if vinegar eliminates 100% of eletrolytes tracks.... :confused:

http://boutique.generateurhho.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/schéma.jpg

[myoldyourgold]

Great design Sir. It helps solve the problem of the reactor getting flooded with your vinegar and cleans some of the harmful electrolyte out of the gas. In fact it does not clean all the electrolyte out. The bubbles, especially if they are big will hold some inside the bubble which does not touch the vinegar. The amount left might be acceptable but might be less if the bubbles were smaller using diffusers. The trick is to get inside the bubbles or use a filter/dryer of some kind. I have one concern and that is the amount of HHO is in the system at any given time. In a major accident where fire is involved one would not want to have any quantity of HHO in any container. Use it up as it is made and have very little in the system, just small amounts in the top of a bubbler still makes a pretty big bang, larger amounts could be serious. Just some food for thought

[cr0sswind]

My first post here. Mech Engineer fron Australia now retired here in the Philippines and thinking of fitting a Dry cell to my diesel Isuzu.

If your vehicle is fitted with an airconditioner the solution is simple. Route the outlet tube along the aircon delivery tube so as to cool the gas and any water vapour contained in the HHO would condense because it is being cooled and seperate from the gas. Then be an easy matter to collect and drain the problem.

Regards Leon...

[Jay30]

Hi I'm new to the the forum but I would put my two cence out there. This is what I have done and seems to work for me. I have a small pill bottle lid with a hole in the center glued to the top of my wet cell then filled the pill bottle with ss steal wool loosely with green scrub pad at the top and screwed it into the lid. I have drilled lots of small holes in the pill bottle, so the gas has to go throw the ss wool then the scrub pad before leaving the unit. The moisture seems to get caught and drip back down into the cell. I have done the same idea to my bubbler as well. I have also added a in line desiccant dryer after the bubbler, it is a dryer that a lot of custom auto painters use it has cilica gel beads in it that change from blue to clear when they need to be changed. I also have a 1/2 " clear tube filled with reg steel wool and aluminum fine mesh to keep a close eye on it to see if it works and so far the steel wool and aluminum are clean. I hope this helps or at least sparks some better ideas.