More plates = LESS PRODUCTION?

[VanHalen]

O K this thread for some reason is still on the front page LOL. Looking back I asked a lot of stupid questions, all seem so easy to answer now. I'll keep it open but let it be known most of the stuff on here was when I was experimenting with wet cells at the very begging of my HHO journey. All info is pretty simple thinking but IDK maybe this thread will help somebody.










O K so I am building my HHO cell(first one) and I put a test run with just 2 2 by 6 plates, a + and -. The second time when I was finished with it, it had 5 plates, +NNN-. The only difference from first to second was I upgraded my bolts to stainless steal. The first time I ran it into a bubbler, there was definitely a steadier stream of bubbles, and that was with a little baking soda. The second time, with KOH, it bubbles way less. Can N plates be the cause? I don't have an amp meter, so I can't tell you amps, just that it produced less after (I visibly took out the plates and ran them in plastic both times, where I saw they produced less the second time)

[EltonBrandd]

What is your plate spacing? How much KOH is in the water? Without an ammeter your basically pissing in the wind. You need to cover all aspects to properly diagnose your problems.

I tried 2 plates with a little baking soda and it produced tons of bubbles, only problem was it was pulling 45amps.

[VanHalen]

I just basically need to know if neutral plates can reduce output along with amps, and I know both times it was under 30 amps because it didn't blow my 30 amp fuse. And give me a break, I'm 16 with VERY limited funds for an ammeter, as in I have about 10 dollars to my name with gas trip coming up soon. the spacing is 1/8 in. 2 tablespoons of KOH, same with the baking soda. And besides, if your pissing WITH the wind, your making progress.

[scrode]

If you have some smaller fuses you could use them to determine the approx amperage. My ampgauge on my charger is not to precise:eek: so I used various fuses to determine my amperage.:rolleyes: And a smaller gap (mine is approx 1/16") between plates would need less distance to jump across. spacing had alot to do with production in my gen. Neutrals will give you the Volt drop ;)(bringing volts to the sweet spot) to bring heat down and more surface area to produce. Wrapping the outside of your plates will help decrease voltage loss on the outer edges (sides), creating more production.

There are people here better at explaining this, but I hope this helps.:D

[Jaxom]

From what I've seen, when you start using N plates you really need to wrap the cell to minimize current leakage around the plates, or else you lose efficiency. With no N's this isn't an issue because all of the cell current has to pass through both the plates.

Also, an ammeter is absolutely vital if you plan to test various cell designs against each other. So is a flow meter (or bottle-in-a-bucket.) If you have a voltmeter you can use it with a current sensing resistor to measure your amperage. IIRC, there is a YouTube video on rigging up a sense resistor but I don't have the link handy. Your $10 would cover a sense resistor and shipping from Mouser.com. :D

[VanHalen]

thanks for all the info. What is a good wrap for the cells?

[Haywire Haywood]

I got my ammeter from ebay for $13 shipped. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=170256403653

[magcshroom]

Hey, i'm also 16. Have 12 graphite plates on the way and am looking to build a 6 plate cell for myself and have a friend buy one. Neutral plates usually decrease the heat generated and give you less draw compared to a +-+- type cell. Like the other guys said, without an amp meter and proper measurement of electrolyte added, you can't be 100% sure. You also said you added stainless bolts and i'm not sure what type of material you had 1st. You'll get more resistance from stainless than say copper so if you had them hooked up to wires that may also be a cause. Test one variable at a time to determine what was the causing factor. If you want you can shoot me a pm, i've been testing these for a few months and am going to go with graphite. It's hard being young and having a small bankroll, i got about 600 saved up for the project so far.

Matt

[VanHalen]

O K you guys are right. I am going to de-assemble my unit back to a + and -. Think I can get a hold of an ammeter from my schools auto shop, hopefully I can borrow one;). As long as I'm going to get more scientifical with this(originally wasn't going too, but I'm sucked in now :rolleyes:) I'm going to check my alternators output rating. Is about 15-20 amps the right amount if I can get about 1lpm?

[VanHalen]

Update: I was blowing 30 amp fuses running +-N+-, so switch to +NNN-. Then wrapped cell and decreased spacing. Seems to put out decent and stays under 30 amps. Will show LPM when I figure get some more line, and amps when I get an ammeter. Running about 1 gallon of distilled water and 1 tblspoon of KOH.

[H2OPWR]

Good luck. It is nice to see younger people trying to improve. I know that having limited funds is tough. I have been there. Make sure that you are using stainless only in the water. I have been around cars a long time. I am very familiar with the older Blazers like you have. You really need to come up with a way to measure amps now while testing and also while driving after your cell is installed. I do not think your Blazer will sustain 30 extra amps of draw while also running lights, heater,etc. You will find yourself alone in the dark with a dead battery. Please find a way to get an amp meter and keep it under 20 amps especially while driving at night.

[VanHalen]

I have an ammeter now and am running about 20 amps going +nnnn-. Haven't measured LPM's yet, because I'm trying to seal my generator. Getting there though

[DaneDHorstead]

I just basically need to know if neutral plates can reduce output along with amps, and I know both times it was under 30 amps because it didn't blow my 30 amp fuse. And give me a break, I'm 16 with VERY limited funds for an ammeter, as in I have about 10 dollars to my name with gas trip coming up soon. the spacing is 1/8 in. 2 tablespoons of KOH, same with the baking soda. And besides, if your pissing WITH the wind, your making progress.
Good answer! Even if you are only 16, being from Kansas, you have enough sense, to turn you back to the wind, when pissing!

As for the plates, when you introduce neutrals, you cut voltage, with every neutral plate you install. This cuts production dramaticly, until the catalyst is increased.

Using just one neutral, your installed system (14 volts, with alternator), cuts the current to just seven volts at the neutral plate. For every gap (6 gaps, if seven plates, as an example), you divide the input voltage, by the number of gaps, Six gaps, would give a 2.33 volt drop over each gap.

Note, you do not want to drop more than 2 volts per gap, so seven gaps would be maximum you want.

[DaneDHorstead]

VanHalen;

I don't know what spacing you are using, or the area, of your plates, but I run 1 tsp of KOH per gallon distilled, but use less than 1/2 gal per unit (4" PVC, with ABS caps).

I get 1.19 LPM (after burn in, was 0.42 LPM before burn in), with 12.75 sq in plates (per side). My gap is 0.0435 (1.1 mm), and amp draw is at 11 per unit. I run 3 gens, and output 3.2 LPM total.

With only three neutrals you are able to cut heat by half, if you add two more plates.

[ridelong]

VanHalen,
You can get cheap ammeters from harbor freight for $3.99. It is a VOM with a 10 amp scale, will work to 20 amps for a few seconds.

Be carefull about lighting the stuff. Use a bubbler if you want to light it.
I've seen too many people light the output hose, and BOOM, they are wearing their generator.

[VanHalen]

Thanks everyone for the responses.My plates are 2 by 6 x 6 for about 72 sq in of surface area, but my plates are perforated(after watching some videos it appeared that HHO would leave edges a little easier). I am now running +NNNN- at about .8 LPM, 1 tablespoon of KOH/half gallon of distilled water, at about 18 amps. I did get an ammeter, and mounted it by my cell in the inside of my truck. I have wrapped my o2 sensor in foil, although I'm a little skeptical that method. I think I'm running a little high on amps for my production, so I may try to add another N plate. I'll post MPG when I fill up again, but hopefully that will be a while.;)

Heres a question- I am introducing HHO through a vaccuum line, and thats it. Should I run a line also to the air filter?

BTW- I did light it, but I have enough sense(lol) to fill a plastic baggie, and balloon, with HHO and lit it with a long torch. I just wanted to see the power first hand. I filled a sandwich bag not even all the way full, and wow. Scared the crap out of me, but I have a better respect for what I'm working with here.

[Painless]

BTW- I did light it, but I have enough sense(lol) to fill a plastic baggie, and balloon, with HHO and lit it with a long torch. I just wanted to see the power first hand. I filled a sandwich bag not even all the way full, and wow. Scared the crap out of me, but I have a better respect for what I'm working with here.

LoL! My 12 year old son was also very curious as to the power after he watched me lighting bubbles off of the top of my bubbler. I told him to go get one of the balloons left over from his birthday party and we filled it to about 4" across with HHO.

We took the balloon over the back end of our property and I placed it on some clear earth and laid a line of dry grass as a fuse. I lit one end of the grass and retired about 20 feet with my son. When the fire reached the balloon it must of just melted a smallish hole first and ignited the gas slowly instead of all in one go. The result sounded like a long wet fart. My son thought it was hilarious.

I guess 'gas' is 'gas' at the end of the day.

[VanHalen]

LoL! My 12 year old son was also very curious as to the power after he watched me lighting bubbles off of the top of my bubbler. I told him to go get one of the balloons left over from his birthday party and we filled it to about 4" across with HHO.

We took the balloon over the back end of our property and I placed it on some clear earth and laid a line of dry grass as a fuse. I lit one end of the grass and retired about 20 feet with my son. When the fire reached the balloon it must of just melted a smallish hole first and ignited the gas slowly instead of all in one go. The result sounded like a long wet fart. My son thought it was hilarious.

I guess 'gas' is 'gas' at the end of the day.

Lol hey made me laugh just reading it. Suppose theres another purpose for HHO :p. BTW "Painless experiment in HHO" has to be the best thread on this place, I have been reading over it lately and has provided a lot of info.

[mytoyotasucks]

Heres a question- I am introducing HHO through a vaccuum line, and thats it. Should I run a line also to the air filter?

Myself will be doing both once i make enough LPM.



BTW- I did light it, but I have enough sense(lol) to fill a plastic baggie, and balloon, with HHO and lit it with a long torch. I just wanted to see the power first hand. I filled a sandwich bag not even all the way full, and wow. Scared the crap out of me, but I have a better respect for what I'm working with here.

i actually filled a 1 liter bottle doing a LPM flow test and dummy me put a lighter to the end and pieces every where, and partial hearing loss - at least for now, and it always sounds like a can in my ear now.

[Jmoore5619]

I got my ammeter from ebay for $13 shipped. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=170256403653


If you have a tractor supply store near you they have amp gauges for $8

[VanHalen]

O K so I have a couple problems after a few days of use

1.My PVC sprung a leak at the bottom seam, just at random, so I'm going to try and find about a foot length 4in PVC instead of 3 different pieces sealed together.

2.My brackets that are suspending my plates from the lid are starting to corrode. I figured this much as they were zinc coated. Any ideas for other ways of suspending my cell, I'm open.(Note I can't cut stainless)

3.My supposedly stainless steel bolts are starting to get kinda brown. Not sure if that's rust as it doesn't scratch off, or if they are just cheap stainless.

[fbmob1]

You can amp meters at Harbor freight tools cheep!

[oicu812]

O K so I have a couple problems after a few days of use

1.My PVC sprung a leak at the bottom seam, just at random, so I'm going to try and find about a foot length 4in PVC instead of 3 different pieces sealed together.

2.My brackets that are suspending my plates from the lid are starting to corrode. I figured this much as they were zinc coated. Any ideas for other ways of suspending my cell, I'm open.(Note I can't cut stainless)

3.My supposedly stainless steel bolts are starting to get kinda brown. Not sure if that's rust as it doesn't scratch off, or if they are just cheap stainless.
do yourself a favor... go to home depot and pick up a whole house water filter for about $30 bucks, makes a great housing and its see through. pick up a couple stainless steel bolts and a large stainless steel hose clamp. grab some stainless steel rivits and a rivit gun if you don't have one. this way everthing will be stainless steel and see through. all my cells run perfectly clear with none of that disgusting brown gunk. also the great thing about using water filters is you can easily put several together in series. I have three in series with a forth as a bubbler. for the bubbler I use a 3/4 to 1l4 inch hose barb fitting and a small piece of hose. I use marine goop to secure the hose barb bushing to the inside center of the filter. I let it cure for a couple days before filling it with water.