Theoretically how much hho with 30amps.

[overtaker]

Theoretically with 30 amps. , what is the most hho someone can produce? Liters per minute please. I wish I was bright enough to figure it out. :) THANKS.

[JojoJaro]

According to the PDF, theoritical efficiency is .853 LPM per 10 A at 13.8V. 30 A may get you 2.5 LPM if you do not exceed the current density of your plate area.

[overtaker]

Thanks Jojo, but now I'm confused. In Patrick Kelly's book... chapter 10 discusses an electrolyzer capable of 5 lpm at 25 amps. What gives?

[1973dodger]

Overtaker,

If you read my thread on series cell trouble, this is the same design I copied. It does not work as advertised, you will not be able to get enough current when voltage is divided 7 times, trust me and save yourself some time and money. They took the effiency rating of a simple series cell setup and made the assumption if you added more surface area you could achieve such and such production. That may work in theory but not in real life. There are other factors at work here.

1973dodger

[Smith03Jetta]

My guess is that with a cell that won't overheat you can expect to produce 2 liters per minute at 30 amps.

[redDEVIL]

According to the PDF, theoritical efficiency is .853 LPM per 10 A at 13.8V. 30 A may get you 2.5 LPM if you do not exceed the current density of your plate area.

Hello there, Could you please share the PDF version? Thanks... :)

[Llew2_1]

I am about to assemble a HHO generator, it is intended to fit behind the bull bar. I run old Ford Falcons 1986 vintage, converted to run on petrol/LPG.
The case is 12 inches square. All 316 SS, I have welded it up and about to assemble the plate stack. Plates are connected alternately + -+- with .040 gap Probably 50 plates 8x10 inches each.
I am hoping to generate 2 litres plus, because of the size.
Thinking of using Sulfuric acid diluted 5;1. As the electrolyte.
Any comments or advice. Please

[Laserist]

The theoretical highest efficiency is supposed to be around 7 mL/min/watt (MMW)
30A x 13.8V is 414W. So at that consumption the the very best you can do is about 2.9 L/min, but expect only about 4-5 MMW with lower production.

[IM2L844]

At room temperature (77 F), it works out to 11.4 milliliters of Hydroxy per minute per amp per cell (plate pair).

Here are a couple of articles I wrote for two different forums. I just put them together to post here, I hope this helps. I've also built a calculator to do the calculations for you. It will be available within a few days on the new site that I am building.

Nick


A look at Faraday Efficiency:

.627 Liters per hour per amp is representative of 100% Faraday Efficiency at 32F and 1 atm pressure.

The ratio of .627 liters per hour per amp is the same thing as .627 divided by 60 minutes to get .01045 liters per minute per amp and then, because there are 1000 milliliters in a liter, multiplied by 1000 to get 10.45 milliliters per minute per amp.

So, let's take another short look at how we can get there.

First, we can perform the calculation for the half reaction for Hydrogen in the electrolysis of water to find it's theoretical volume produced per minute per amp.

Electrical Charge in Coulombs (C) = t X I (60 seconds X 1 Amp) = 60 C

The volume of Hydrogen, or any gas for that matter, per mole is a given value. At standard pressure and temperature, the volume of Hydrogen per mole is 22.414 Liters or 22,414 Milliliters which, by the way, is the Ideal Gas Constant (0.0820574587) multiplied by the Standard Temperature in Kelvins (273.15K which is equal to 0C or 32F). Also, this is the point in the calculation where temperature corrections are made to adjust the volume per mole.

For example, many people will use what is commonly referred to as "room temperature" (25C = 77F = 298K) to make these calculations which makes the volume of gas per mole = Ideal Gas Constant (0.0820574587) multiplied by room temperature in Kelvins (298K) = 24.4531226926 Liters or 24,453 Milliliters per mole. In order to make this more clear, I will carry out this example throughout these calculations.

Anyway,

1 mole of Hydrogen yields 2 moles of electrons.

The electrical charge of one mole of electrons (Faraday's Constant) is given as 96,485 C (1 Faraday). Since we have two moles of electrons, the electrical charge delivered by one mole of Hydrogen = 2 X 96,485 C or 192,970 C.

Hydrogen volume = Electrical charge in Coulombs (60 C) / (divided by) Electrical charge delivered by one mole of Hydrogen (192,970 C) X (multiplied by) Hydrogen Volume per mole (22,414 milliliters or 24,453 milliliters at room temperature ) =

60 C / 192,970 C = .000311

.000311 X 22,414 = 6.97 milliliters

Or, at room temperature (298K)

.000311 X 24,453 = 7.60 milliliters

Hydroxy contains 100% more Hydrogen than Oxygen, so we need to add 50% of 6.29 which brings us up to 10.45 milliliters. Okay, let's verify that again by performing the calculations for the other half reaction for Oxygen and adding it to our results for Hydrogen.

Instead of 2 moles of electrons like we had for Hydrogen, we have 4 moles of electrons for Oxygen, so 4 X 96,485 C = 385,940 C/mole.

60 C / 385,940 C = 0.000155

0.000155 X 22,414 = 3.48 milliliters of Oxygen

Or, at room temperature (298K):

.000155 X 24,453 = 3.80 milliliters

Now,

6.97 milliliters Hydrogen + 3.48 milliliters Oxygen = 10.45 milliliters of Hydroxy per minute per amp per cell.

Or, at room temperature (298 K):

7.60 milliliters Hydrogen + 3.80 milliliters Oxygen = 11.4 milliliters of Hydroxy per minute per amp per cell.

To correct for pressure, you just divide that final number by the atmospheric pressure represented in units of atm (atmospheres). Most local weather stations report atmospheric pressure in millibars or hectopascals (both the same thing). You can convert that to atmospheres by multiplying the value given in millibars or hectopascals by .0009869233

That's the nub of it!



We can calculate the amount of HHO that will be produced by any particular configuration. There are a mutitude of things that can affect the accuracy of theoretical output as compared to the real world output most of which have to do with energy losses through resistance factors and side reactions, but in order to make a point I'm going to ignore some of those details...for now.

The formula used, in it's basic form, is:

V = R*I*T*t / F*p*z

where:
V = volume
R = ideal gas constant
I = current
T = temperature
t = time
F = Faraday’s constant
p = ambient pressure
z = number of excess electrons

Now, let's say you pass a given amount of amps through an electrolyte, in a singel cell, from a monopolar positively charged plate to a monopolar negatively charged plate for a given amount of time and you produce 100 milliters of HHO in one minute. If you place a bipolar (neutral) plate between them you will have effectively created two cells and if you can pass the same amount of amps through them you will double your production to 200 milliliters per minute for the same cost in energy! If you add another bipolar plate, you will create another cell and your production will increase by another 100 milliliters for the same energy cost thus increasing the efficiency. You can keep adding bipolar plates, creating extra cells and increasing production and efficiency like this as long as the system will draw the same amount of amps. Isn't that cool? Here is how it would look:


8.75 amps in = +|+cell 1-|- = 100 milliliters

8.75 amps in = +|+cell 1-|+cell 2-|- = 200 milliliters

8.75 amps in = +|+cell 1-|+cell 2-|+cell 3-|- = 300 milliliters

8.75 amps in = +|+cell 1-|+cell 2-|+cell 3-|+cell 4-|- = 400 milliliters

8.75 amps in = +|+cell 1-|+cell 2-|+cell 3-|+cell 4-|+cell 5-|- = 500 milliliters

8.75 amps in = +|+cell 1-|+cell 2-|+cell 3-|+cell 4-|+cell 5-|+cell 6-|- = 600 milliliters

8.75 amps in = +|+cell 1-|+cell 2-|+cell 3-|+cell 4-|+cell 5-|+cell 6-|+cell 7-|- = 700 milliliters

There are limits, however, to how many cells you can add. Every additional cell acts like a resistor in an electrical circuit and reduces the voltage (potential) by dividing it. Starting with a 12 volt source, it would work like this:

8.75 A X 12 V = +|+12 volts-|- = 100 milliliters for 105 Watts

8.75 A X 12 V = +|+6 volts-|+6volts-|- = 200 milliliters for 105 Watts

8.75 A X 12 V = +|+4 volts-|+4 volts-|+4 volts-|- = 300 milliliters for 105 Watts

8.75 A X 12 V = +|+3 volts-|+3 volts-|+3 volts-|+3 volts-|- = 400 milliliters for 105 Watts

8.75 A X 12 V = +|+2.4 volts-|+2.4 volts-|+2.4 volts-|+2.4 volts-|+2.4 volts-|- = 500 milliliters for 105 Watts

8.75 A X 12 V = +|+2 volts-|+2 volts-|+2 volts-|+2 volts-|+2 volts-|+2 volts-|+2 volts-|- = 600 milliliters for 105 Watts

8.75 A X 12 V = +|+1.71 volts-|+1.71 volts-|+1.71 volts-|+1.71 volts-|+1.71 volts-|+1.71 volts-|+1.71 volts-|- = 700 milliliters for 105 Watts

Ohms Laws must be obeyed and lower voltages have a lower potential to draw amps. There is a reason I stopped with 7 cells. This is where resistance starts to become the overlord