Series Cell - Weird Results!!!

[tbhavsar]

Today I tested each cell separately; each cell is consuming 30 amps and producing about .75 LPM; but when I connected in series, current drops to approx 5amp with no gas output at all.

Further, when measured voltage, Cell 1 is showing only 1.7v and another 10.9V. This is very weird. Cell 1 is '+n - - n +' with 1/16 gap and cell 2 is '+nn -- nn+' with 1/16 gap.Please throw some lights what I am doing wrong.

[overtaker]

I'm a little confused on wiring those two in series as shown. You may have to many voltage drops. Try wiring them in parallel. Can you show us a pick of the wiring?

[Q-Hack!]

Today I tested each cell separately; each cell is consuming 30 amps and producing about .75 LPM; but when I connected in series, current drops to approx 5amp with no gas output at all.

Further, when measured voltage, Cell 1 is showing only 1.7v and another 10.9V. This is very weird. Cell 1 is '+n - - n +' with 1/16 gap and cell 2 is '+nn -- nn+' with 1/16 gap.Please throw some lights what I am doing wrong.

When you wire cells in series you get a voltage drop across each plate. A cell is defined as any space between opposite charged plates. This means that between your positive and neutral plate is one cell and between your neutral and negative plate is a cell. The space between your two negative plates is not considered a cell yet the space between the two neutrals is. With your two generators in series you effectively have 10 cells which drop voltage. This means you have 1.2V across each cell which is not enough to drive them. You need at least 1.69V per cell if you are using NaOH; most people shoot for about 2V - 2.4V per cell. Much more than that and you start to generate heat.

[1973dodger]

In a true series cell, seperated cells in seperate compartments, you are dividing the voltage by each array you put in a series. If you plan on running in a series, do not use neutrals. If you use neutrals in a series, you are dropping voltage for each neutral in your array and and you put this in a series you are dropping that voltage again. You can read my thread on "series cell problems", if you need some further clarifacation.

1973dodger

[tbhavsar]

Thanks for your comment; I made following improvements to improve gas production but IT DID NOT WORK AT ALL!!!!

I am having major problem distributing equal Voltage to both the cells connected in series; here are the pics http://picasaweb.google.com/tbhavsar/SeriesCellTest#slideshow

1) Added 2 extra neutral plates; Plate Configuration changed to ‘+NN- - NN+’ form ‘+n- n+’ (originally one was '+ NN - - NN+ and another one '+ N - - N +').

2) Reduced plate gap; changed confused 1/16 from 1/8

3) Sealed leaks; found minor leaks and sealed it.

Setup: two separate cells in series with SS wall plates

Observations:

Voltage issue: Initially both cells started showing equal voltages; i.e. 6.xx approx per cell with current draw about 15 amp. After 30 secs (approx); one cell started showing voltage 12.xx (approx) and another 1.xx (approx) with VERY low current. I do not understand what is going on here….

[donnylynn]

Voltage issue: Initially both cells started showing equal voltages; i.e. 6.xx approx per cell with current draw about 15 amp. After 30 secs (approx); one cell started showing voltage 12.xx (approx) and another 1.xx (approx) with VERY low current. I do not understand what is going on here….[/color]

Voltage = current times resistance. If both cells have same configuration they should drop equal voltage. Since one cell is dropping nearly the entire 12 volts and current has dropped, something in that cell has caused its resistance to increase. Re-check all connections and make sure there is no corrosion on the connections also.

[precaster1@msn.com]

Could someone give tell me what series and parallel are? I want to wire 2 separate cells in same container in series to drop the amps but not sure how to.

[M Bell]

The problem that you are having I think is because you have your neutral plates inside of both negative fields. Neutrals should be seperated between a positive on one side and the negative on the other.
+nnnn-nnnn+nnnn-
Try it like this.

[Q-Hack!]

After looking at your pics, I think I see the problem. You are running both generators in series. Run them in parallel and you will see your production again.


You need this:
+|car battery|-
+|generator1 |-
+|generator2 |-

Not this:
+|car battery. |-
+|gen1|- +|gen2|-

[tbhavsar]

I have opened the cell and corrected plate gaps; re-checked circuits for shorts. When I tested individual cell, both the cell produced little over 1 LPM with current 35+ amp for each cell.

But when I connect in series, output dropps a lot with very low current about 3 amp. Voltage of one cell is 7.xx and another 6.xx (this is with motor on with output battery voltage 14)
I am confused and frustrated.

[loumiii]

Hi

A few comments:

Terminology - what you have are two generators, not cells. Each plate gap is a cell whether it's wired + or - or a not wired N. Count the plate gaps in each of your units, if its more than six then you will have a very low producing unit. You need about 2 volts across each plate gap (per cell) to generate gas. I counted one of your units at seven cells, thats the maximum for a 13.8 volt system and it will take all day for it to reach optimum temperature for maximum gas production. When you wire both of your units in series you have less than the minimum voltage needed for generation.

Efficiency - You have about the most inefficient generators I've yet seen and I wonder if you're aware of plate preparation and conditioning steps. Check out the hydroxy pdf at panecia.org for information about this. Plates should also be absolutely parallel so there is an even voltage potential across them at every point. You should be getting about 1 liter of gas for every 12 amps. The rest of your power is being wasted, mostly through heat generating leakage currents (and a 35 amp draw will likely eat up all the benefits of using a generator). You need to isolate and insulate each cell from the next as best you can to reduce these non gas generating leakage currents.

I don't know why you're trying different configurations. Using neutral plates has the advantage of using both sides of a plate to generate gas. The simplist, and likely most efficient layout is just
+nnnnn- which is a six cell in series arrangement, apply your full battery voltage across it and you have about 2.25 volts per cell and if you can insulate out your leakage currents it'll give you about 1 liter per minute at twelve amps (if you're using 12 sq inch switch plates of 304ss grade - the one's from Lowes) with a 3% solution of NaOH for electrolyte. Build two and wire in parallel and its two liters at 24 amps.

Good luck with it!
Regards
Lou

[tbhavsar]

Hi

A few comments:

Terminology - what you have are two generators, not cells. Each plate gap is a cell whether it's wired + or - or a not wired N. Count the plate gaps in each of your units, if its more than six then you will have a very low producing unit. You need about 2 volts across each plate gap (per cell) to generate gas. I counted one of your units at seven cells, thats the maximum for a 13.8 volt system and it will take all day for it to reach optimum temperature for maximum gas production. When you wire both of your units in series you have less than the minimum voltage needed for generation.

Efficiency - You have about the most inefficient generators I've yet seen and I wonder if you're aware of plate preparation and conditioning steps. Check out the hydroxy pdf at panecia.org for information about this. Plates should also be absolutely parallel so there is an even voltage potential across them at every point. You should be getting about 1 liter of gas for every 12 amps. The rest of your power is being wasted, mostly through heat generating leakage currents (and a 35 amp draw will likely eat up all the benefits of using a generator). You need to isolate and insulate each cell from the next as best you can to reduce these non gas generating leakage currents.

I don't know why you're trying different configurations. Using neutral plates has the advantage of using both sides of a plate to generate gas. The simplist, and likely most efficient layout is just
+nnnnn- which is a six cell in series arrangement, apply your full battery voltage across it and you have about 2.25 volts per cell and if you can insulate out your leakage currents it'll give you about 1 liter per minute at twelve amps (if you're using 12 sq inch switch plates of 304ss grade - the one's from Lowes) with a 3% solution of NaOH for electrolyte. Build two and wire in parallel and its two liters at 24 amps.

Good luck with it!
Regards
Lou


Lou,

Thanks for you reply; I agree with you on terminlogy and plate conditioning; I am in the process of getting proper 304 or 316 grade plate cut 2 x 6 inch. for my 3inch. PVC pipe.

Sorry if I have confused you; but the plate connection are in parrellal like this;

Each Generator:
‘+ N N |-| N N +’ (where ‘|-|’ is two negative plates connected by SS nut; similiary two positive plates are connect by SS bolt)

Two generator connected in Series like this:
‘+ N N |-| N N +
. . . . . .^----------------->+ N N |-| N N +’

Here each generator is consuming about 6.xx of volts; Why this will not work?

[DaneDHorstead]

Lou

In theory, I agree with you, and I have many time brought up the very fact that a cell is indeed the empty place between walls (just like a jail cell).

However, for well over 100 years, the HHO generator, has been referred to as a cell, and throughout various books written on the subject, glosseries inside those books, refer to the generator, as a "cell"!

Courses taught on the matter, refer to the generator as a cell, and the overall puplic familliar with the subject refer to it as a cell.

So, no matter how that argument goes on, it will never win.

Technicly you are correct, but you will lose the battle!