Lost HHO production

[florida horseman]

Here's the deal... I have 2 wound-wire 1 qt cells. Each test separately with 143 mlPM and 118 mlPM HHO output (2nd cell slightly diluted) respectively on 12v (13.8v actual) & 2 1/2 tsp baking soda each. When I hook them up in series the total HHO output should be around 261 mlPM and voltage down to about 6v (6.65v actual). The voltage IS halved, BUT... my HHO output is cut by almost 2/3 to only 90 mlPM! That's TOTAL output from BOTH CELLS in series!! I've repeated the test multiple times with the same results.

I also tested each cell separately while still plumbed in series to look for a leak between cells. No leaks. And each cell continues to produce the aforementioned 12v results when isolated on 12v. Isn't cell current supposed to stay the same at 12v or 6v? And if one of the electrodes is shorted in series wouldn't it show up in the isolation testing?

Right now I have both cells wired independently on separate keyed circuits for 12v each and actual average output is 225 mlPM. Ideas anyone? ~FH

[ridelong]

florida horseman,

What you are experiencing is correct. The generators you built are designed to operate at 12 volts. When you put them in series, you reduce the voltage to each one by half, which reduces the current by half, dropping the output drastically.

Run them in parallel.

[florida horseman]

florida horseman,

What you are experiencing is correct. The generators you built are designed to operate at 12 volts. When you put them in series, you reduce the voltage to each one by half, which reduces the current by half, dropping the output drastically.

Run them in parallel.
Thanks ridealong. These are water4gas designed units and they originally promoted running them in series, up to 6 with 2v across each one. They have a "new" 6 pack design now that puts them in parallel/series; 2 banks of 3 splitting the 12v +,- legs and connected 2X3 across in series at 3v per cell. If these wire-wound cells are designed for max output at 12v, what are they doing trying to convince me I need MORE cells with LESS voltage/current to ultimately produce diminishing amounts of HHO? I know they will be cooler, but who cares how cool they are if you need a trailer load of them to make usable amounts of HHO?

If what I'm seeing, measuring and calculating is correct, then using these units means I'll need TWELVE of them running on 12v each, drawing about 5 amps each to get somewhere near 1.74 LPM HHO. That also means adding 3 dedicated keyed circuits of at least 20 amps each with an aditional 60 amp constant draw on the alternator and THEN find someplace to put 12 units! This project is starting to look a bit grim. :( ~FH

[Farmercal]

florida horseman, I started with the same design and soon abandoned the idea after reading what everyone else was building on these forums. That design did get me started into the HHO production game but it was only a starting point.

I am currently building a modified smacks booster and will try another different design after I make this one work. I would have had it competed by now but had to help someone move this past weekend.

[ridelong]

florida horseman,

I don't know why they say to put them in series.

One thing you might do is wind the wires closer together, if you can. That will increase the amperage, possibly enough to put two in series.

The water for gas definately isn't the best design.

You might read the SMITHJETTA thread. It is informative, and about the best documented builders treck to build a genereator that I've seen.

Plumabob has a nice gen. too.

Flat 316 ss plates with neutrals (I use 4), seem to do well.

Do some reading on this site, lots of good info.

[justaguy]

143ml and 118ml pm should tell you something. Don,t waste your time adding more, take theses guys advice and either build you a good one or buy a good one. You can do that a lot cheaper than buying several of the water4gas cells.

Ridealong is right, running them in series will cut your amps but it takes amps to produce hho. The reason they suggested you do that is because if you ran enough amps with the water4gas cell to get any more hho you would have problems with heat. So, instead of running one hot steam producing generator to make 1 lpm they,re telling you to run 6 cooler generators to produce the same output. :)

There are several designs that will produce 1 lpm or more for about the price of two water4gas cells.

[florida horseman]

Thanks for the input and suggestions all.

I suppose what I find most frustrating is the general lack of empirical data on these various "commercial" cell designs. For a given volume of distilled water, chosen catalyst, supply voltage and resultant amperage there should be reliable data to determine or demonstrate cell HHO output for something being marketed to the public. If I ever DID get into design, manufacture and sales of these units, I would certainly provide how much HHO the cell should produce and how I hooked it up to get those results, much like the experimenter discussions here and elsewhere do.

I also find it a bit curious how so many scientifically unsophisticated people (like myself) blindly install these low volume HHO systems and yet report significant MPG gains. It makes me wonder if the MAP enhancers, O2 spacers and EFIE's are more responsible for that than the minimal HHO being produced. Has there been any discussion of that around here? ~FH

[Farmercal]

I also find it a bit curious how so many scientifically unsophisticated people (like myself) blindly install these low volume HHO systems and yet report significant MPG gains. It makes me wonder if the MAP enhancers, O2 spacers and EFIE's are more responsible for that than the minimal HHO being produced. Has there been any discussion of that around here? ~FHFH, They do discuss the MAP, O2, sensors adjustments/control as well as using an EFIE but there hasn't been a lot of discussion on that subject.

I firmly believe that the MPG gain the water4gas people are achieving could be due to installing a MAP sensor adjustor. I say this because my car with a 1.5 liter engine has been running lean (on its own) for the last two years. I have tried to figure out why and fix it but can't figure it out. My car routinely get's 38-42 MPG due to the fact that it is running lean. It also destroys spark plugs FAST. I am hoping the introduction of HHO will help keep the engine cooler and solve my lean problem.

Now, if I could figure out why my car is running lean and duplicate it on other cars, I could help out everybody!

[timetowinarace]

Here's the deal... I have 2 wound-wire 1 qt cells. Each test separately with 143 mlPM and 118 mlPM HHO output (2nd cell slightly diluted) respectively on 12v (13.8v actual) & 2 1/2 tsp baking soda each. When I hook them up in series the total HHO output should be around 261 mlPM and voltage down to about 6v (6.65v actual). The voltage IS halved, BUT... my HHO output is cut by almost 2/3 to only 90 mlPM! That's TOTAL output from BOTH CELLS in series!! I've repeated the test multiple times with the same results.

I also tested each cell separately while still plumbed in series to look for a leak between cells. No leaks. And each cell continues to produce the aforementioned 12v results when isolated on 12v. Isn't cell current supposed to stay the same at 12v or 6v? And if one of the electrodes is shorted in series wouldn't it show up in the isolation testing?

Right now I have both cells wired independently on separate keyed circuits for 12v each and actual average output is 225 mlPM. Ideas anyone? ~FH

Actually, running two cells in series doubles the resistance, thus cutting the current in half. It's not the voltage drop across each cell that does it.

Increase electrolyte(baking soda in this case) to lower resistance and bring the current back up. Make sure both units have the same electrolyte concentration.

W4G is not a very good design but I would try what I mentioned above for some experience and maybe a workable unit untill you can improve on it. I would not run them parallel as they will over heat quickly.

[1973dodger]

Florida horseman,

I agree with all of the replies you have recieved on this thread. You can read the thread I started on "series cell problems" to see what data I have posted. When voltage is stepped down, current is divided a little more than half each time you add a cell in a series, thusly stepping down voltage. I have not found the answer as of yet, but I do know you can get better lpm/amp each time you step the voltage down. Yet the problem is, you can not get enough current to increase production. I'll keep posting on the above mentioned thread if I find anything useful to share.

1973dodger

[florida horseman]

I would not run them parallel as they will over heat quickly. They still get pretty hot on 2 separate circuits! Paralleling just these two units with 2 1/2 tsp each would require battery cable to keep from melting the wire. Would some sort of fused DC transformer or large capacitor(s) in line make it possible to run multiple cells on 12v from a single source keyed 12v/30a if they were inserted downstream from an add-on buss block or something? ~FH